Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Who has said that?

I think people are just recognising that there is a good combination there.

Nobody said that explicitly. But there were a lot of posts suggesting that Leo isn't a good head coach without Lancaster.

thomond2006

Bernard Jackman and Buer for Leinster.

Squidgy Black

Former Former Former wrote: »

In his first ever season as a head coach?? That's unbelievably harsh. We topped the league a year after not even making the semis.

Flip it around. What did Lancaster achieve without Leo? Crashed out of the pool stages of a home RWC, England's worst ever result. Never won a 6N title.

But everyone chooses to believe that Leo is the sham and Lancaster is the genius.

Pretty unfair tbh.

That's not what I'm saying at all. The point was that the success is a result of the duo working together and taking on different parts of the job, and that Leo doesn't have the track record of a winning success rate as a standalone head coach.

Much like how Andy Farrell has a pretty successful history as an assistant coach but hasn't fared well in the top gig on his own.

It's not a slight on Leo, and it certainly isn't saying the Lancaster is the sole reason for Leinster's success, I just don't believe that Leo is the next messiah for Irish rugby on his own.

Clareman

I don't see the need to changing the coaching ticket, this is the first full year in charge of the squad so it'll take some time. For the past few World Cup cycles we've had a great show leading up to the Lions tour, loads of players go on tour, then come the World Cup everyone else has caught up/passed us out, hopefully this time around we'll be building nicely for the world Cup.

TRC10

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Leo doesn't have the track record of a winning success rate as a standalone head coach.

What do you mean by "standalone head coach". Leo Cullen is the head coach. Lancaster is part of his coaching staff. This is how every coaching set up works. Every head coach has coaching staff. So using your own logic. Nobody has ever won anything as a "standalone head coach".

TRC10

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I just don't believe that Leo is the next messiah for Irish rugby on his own.

Nobody is saying he is. And neither was any coach in history. Joe Schmidt had guys like John Plumtree and Andy Farrell who were key to his success. Gatland had Shaun Edwards. Sir Graham Henry had Sir Steve Hansen. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

dub_skav

I don't think Farrell should be replaced and I also do not think that Leo or O'Gara are ready.

But, it seems odd that O'Gara is "on the right track" while he has Jonno Gibbes as DoR at la Rochelle, but Leo "will never be able to do it on his own" because of Lancaster.

I'm not saying it's a Munster v Leinster thing either. Plenty of Leinster fans belittle Leo's input and success.

It's just really weird, I think people respect O'Gara for heading abroad and think that the way Leo got the job on MOC's exit somehow sullies him forever.

TRC10

dub_skav wrote: »

It's just really weird, I think people respect O'Gara for heading abroad and think that the way Leo got the job on MOC's exit somehow sullies him forever.

I respect ROG for going abroad.

But to be honest I think taking over as head coach of one of the biggest club teams in the world just a year after retiring as a player, and then winning a Heineken cup (and getting to another final) and 3 (possibly 4) consecutive Pro14s is just as admirable.

theVersatile

Is the ROC article on central contracts any way interesting?

bayern

theVersatile wrote: »

Is the ROC article on central contracts any way interesting?

not really.

In late January, 2016, Saracens made Keith Earls an offer he almost couldn’t refuse. In the end, Joe Schmidt and David Nucifora got the Moyross man in a room and convinced him that his future was better served by remaining at Munster and he signed a two-year central contract until the end of the 2019 World Cup.

At 28, Earls was rightly in demand. A key figure for province and country and allowing him leave the Irish system would have damaged both.

He went on to star in Ireland’s epic 2018 campaign and was rewarded with another two-year central deal as a result.

Yesterday, Earls signed his third central contract with the IRFU, becoming the fourth player over 30 to do so in the last seven days.

Now 33, the winger is an experienced performer and consummate professional, still capable of exciting moments as he demonstrated in Ireland’s win over Italy when he took Johnny Sexton’s pass to score the final try.

Yet, it is doubtful that he’d have commanded anything like the same sort of interest he did five years ago if he’d gone to the market this time around.

Thus, the logic in handing him one of Irish rugby’s most valuable contracts must be queried.

Unlike Sexton, his pre-eminence in his position is no longer clear-cut and it is doubtful that he will be first choice at the 2023 World Cup.

Earls is super-fit and looks after himself very well, so there’s no doubt he has a chance of proving the doubters wrong and making it a fourth tournament in a row. However, there won’t be many Tier One countries with 36-year-old wingers in France.

Speaking last week, head coach Andy Farrell said a player must demonstrate consistency at the top level to become one of Irish rugby’s made men.

“To get a central contract, if you look at the history, you show continuity at this level to be a top-class international player,” he said. “That’s the remit that everyone understands.

“Just because somebody pops up and plays four or five games that are really good … as far as international rugby is concerned it’s about consistency at this level to prove your worth.

“I suppose that’s how we’ve always worked and how we’ll continue to.”

The central deal, therefore, is a reward for past performances and, as anyone who has listened to the fast bit at the end of a radio advertisement knows, that is no guarantee of future results. Since that glorious 2018 campaign, Ireland’s stars have failed to deliver and yet they continue to be rewarded.

For three successive years, the team has failed to achieve its goals at major tournaments but those main players remain the key figures in the team who are paid the most money.

More than half of Ireland’s centrally contracted players are over 30 and there is no expectation that any new players will join that crew in these straitened times.

Of the seven players whose IRFU deals expired this season, five have signed on but of those only Iain Henderson looks like being a guaranteed starter in France. New deals for the two men other than Henderson likely to attract interest on the open market, CJ Stander and Tadhg Furlong, have yet to be announced. Both are expected to sign two-year deals.

By and large, those players on central deals have been picked to play when they are fit.

Farrell has talked about creating competition throughout his squad and, in fairness, he put Caelan Doris in ahead of Peter O’Mahony for his first match in charge and benched Conor Murray for the Autumn Nations Cup trip to Twickenham last year.

Bundee Aki is currently out of favour, but with three centrally contracted centres fit and available for once the head coach has to leave one out of his squad and the Connacht man came into the Six Nations on the back of a knee injury.

Last weekend’s interprovincial derbies were a showcase of the potential within Irish rugby and many of the top performers are players who are not in the Irish squad.

On Saturday night at the Kingspan Stadium, the uncapped Robert Baloucoune reminded everyone in Irish rugby why he is considered a future Ireland international, while his fellow 23-year-old Jordan Larmour is capable of stepping up to another level after winning 27 caps already.

At the 2019 World Cup, Larmour and Andrew Conway were the form wings, Rhys Ruddock was the form back-row, Seán Cronin was the form hooker and Luke McGrath was the form scrum-half, yet when the quarter-final came around Schmidt went back to his struggling, cosy cabal of out-of-form leaders on central contracts.

Given that tournament ended with the same failure of all of the previous editions of the World Cup for Ireland, the entire model should have come up for review.

None of which is to write Earls off. If he is the best player to play for Munster and also Ireland, then it doesn’t matter what age he is – he should be picked.

However, there’s no reason why he, Cian Healy and O’Mahony could have stepped back on to provincial deals where they can still fight for their spots.

Central contracts are excellent tools for retaining big names, but are they optimum in terms of getting the best out of the top players who can become comfortable once they’ve signed?

Successive World Cup failures would suggest otherwise.

Former Former Former

Well, he's wrong about "three centrally contracted centres" anyway, Ringrose doesn't have one.

That's just full of inaccuracies tbh. Sean Cronin was the form hooker and should have been picked for the RWC quarter final?? Despite having gone home injured and been replaced by Herring?

sydthebeat

Former Former Former wrote: »

Well, he's wrong about "three centrally contracted centres" anyway, Ringrose doesn't have one.

That's just full of inaccuracies tbh. Sean Cronin was the form hooker and should have been picked for the RWC quarter final?? Despite having gone home injured and been replaced by Herring?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/shaft-of-light-amid-covid-19-gloom-as-ringrose-signs-leinster-deal-1.4217151

According to thornley Ringrose is on a central contract since last year

awec

TRC10 wrote: »

What do you mean by "standalone head coach". Leo Cullen is the head coach. Lancaster is part of his coaching staff. This is how every coaching set up works. Every head coach has coaching staff. So using your own logic. Nobody has ever won anything as a "standalone head coach".

You're being disingenuous.

How many teams have a recent tier 1 test head coach as their number 2 in a "Senior Coach" position?

Eod100

dub_skav wrote: »

I don't think Farrell should be replaced and I also do not think that Leo or O'Gara are ready.

But, it seems odd that O'Gara is "on the right track" while he has Jonno Gibbes as DoR at la Rochelle, but Leo "will never be able to do it on his own" because of Lancaster.

I'm not saying it's a Munster v Leinster thing either. Plenty of Leinster fans belittle Leo's input and success.

It's just really weird, I think people respect O'Gara for heading abroad and think that the way Leo got the job on MOC's exit somehow sullies him forever.

If the 2 choices were ROG or Cullen now and only them I dont know how anyone would say ROG over Cullen tbh.

sydthebeat

Eod100 wrote: »

If the 2 choices were ROG or Cullen now and only them I dont know how anyone would say ROG over Cullen tbh.

I'd 100% say ROG over Cullen right now, if it was a single choice between the two at this very moment.

More experience in different ethos of playing the game. More experience coaching different aspects of the game... And more experience working with groups of people with different strengths and personalities

errlloyd

sydthebeat wrote: »

More experience in different ethos of playing the game. More experience coaching different aspects of the game... And more experience working with groups of people with different strengths and personalities

This goes both ways right? Leo has more experience working with the lads with the strengths and personalities of Irish players!

Eod100

sydthebeat wrote: »

I'd 100% say ROG over Cullen right now, if it was a single choice between the two at this very moment.

More experience in different ethos of playing the game. More experience coaching different aspects of the game... And more experience working with groups of people with different strengths and personalities

ROG is definitely building up experience and with time at Racing, Crusaders and La Rochelle no doubt learned a fair bit but as head coach I think it would be too early imo.

sebdavis

awec wrote: »

You're being disingenuous.

How many teams have a recent tier 1 test head coach as their number 2 in a "Senior Coach" position?

England for one

sebdavis

Eod100 wrote: »

ROG is definitely building up experience and with time at Racing, Crusaders and La Rochelle no doubt learned a fair bit but as head coach I think it would be too early imo.

ROG has said he wants to coach Munster. He gets thrown in to coach Ireland, goes ok and then at some stage it will turns. He leave what does he do then? we have no history of reintegrating these coachs back into the Irish system so he is back to traveling the World.

ROG would be crazy to take on the Irish job now, especially when he said he wants to coach Munster at some stage

awec

sebdavis wrote: »

England for one

Which of England's assistant coaches do you believe is a former tier 1 test head coach?

Are you mixing up Ed Robinson and Andy Robinson?

dub_skav

John Kirwan?
Sorry, wrong John.
Mitchell

TRC10

awec wrote: »

You're being disingenuous.

How many teams have a recent tier 1 test head coach as their number 2 in a "Senior Coach" position?

I'd bet not many. I've no doubt Lancaster has played a huge role in Leinster's recent success. But ultimately Cullen is the head coach, and he brought him on to the coaching staff when no other clubs or countries seemed to have any interest in him. And it turned out to be a brilliant move because he's done brilliantly.

My point is, I don't think a Head Coach's success should be played down because he has a very good no.2. Because so have all the great coaches. I've no doubt if Leo got the Ireland job he'd want Lancaster in his coaching team.

Also, if Leo got the Ireland job...ROG to Leinster???

awec

dub_skav wrote: »

John Kirwan?
Sorry, wrong John.
Mitchell

Missed him!

Point still stands though, Leinster have a coaching setup that's pretty unique in club rugby. Not many teams could afford a Lancaster type as an assistant coach.

I think it's unfair to suggest that Cullen is good only because of Lancaster, but the fact remains he has an enviable position.

TRC10

awec wrote: »

Missed him!

Point still stands though, Leinster have a coaching setup that's pretty unique in club rugby. Not many teams could afford a Lancaster type as an assistant coach.

I think it's unfair to suggest that Cullen is good only because of Lancaster, but the fact remains he has an enviable position.

He put himself in that position. He got the job in incredibly difficult circumstances and did a admirable job in his first season. Then he brought on a coach who'd recently been sacked from his last job that most teams wouldn't touch with a 10 foot barge poll.

You're using Cullens judgement against him.

awec

TRC10 wrote: »

He put himself in that position. He got the job in incredibly difficult circumstances and did a admirable job in his first season. Then he brought on a coach who'd recently been sacked from his last job that most teams wouldn't touch with a 10 foot barge poll.

You're using Cullens judgement against him.

:pac:

Think there's some creative license on your behalf here, not too many teams would turn their nose up at a test level coach as an assistant if they could afford him!

I'd love someone like Gregor Townsend, Wayne Pivac, Eddie Jones as assistant coach to McFarland but it's never going to happen.

sebdavis

awec wrote: »

:pac:

Think there's some creative license on your behalf here, not too many teams would turn their nose up at a test level coach as an assistant if they could afford him!

I'd love someone like Gregor Townsend, Wayne Pivac, Eddie Jones as assistant coach to McFarland but it's never going to happen.

Nobody wanted Lancaster, his name was at the bottom in England. For any sort of job.
He tried for a job in Aus(was it Reds?) and was turned down.

Even when Leinster brought him in listen back to podcasts, Im sure here was similar, people thought it was a crazy move. I remember watching a game, maybe it was the first in Europe and the entire build up was of Lancaster walking around with the players while they talked about him

It was nothing to do with money.

Not really making a comparison, Townsend/Pivac/Jones at the moment are in a good position. After the WC Lancaster was blamed for everything, the press and RFU hung him out to dry. The parts about him not picking the team and Andy Farrell was picking it etc. The lad they brought in from League as a centre and he played him. All of that was going on. He was a terrible coach according to the popular opinion

jm08

TRC10 wrote: »

He put himself in that position. He got the job in incredibly difficult circumstances and did a admirable job in his first season. Then he brought on a coach who'd recently been sacked from his last job that most teams wouldn't touch with a 10 foot barge poll.

You're using Cullens judgement against him.

I doubt if Cullen wants the Ireland job, but if he does, he needs more international experience bearing in mind that all Ireland's competition will be up against international opposition. Cullen doesn't even have many caps as an international to draw on. Take Stephen Larkham as an example - over 100 caps for Australia, Three years as Brumbies Head coach when they got to Super Rugby semi final, 4 years Australia Assistant Coach under Checka and was turned down for head coach job after checka because he didn't have enough international experience and why he is in Munster now.

sebdavis

jm08 wrote: »

I doubt if Cullen wants the Ireland job, but if he does, he needs more international experience bearing in mind that all Ireland's competition will be up against international opposition. Cullen doesn't even have many caps as an international to draw on. Take Stephen Larkham as an example - over 100 caps for Australia, Three years as Brumbies Head coach when they got to Super Rugby semi final, 4 years Australia Assistant Coach under Checka and was turned down for head coach job after checka because he didn't have enough international experience and why he is in Munster now.

Did Larkham apply for the Aus job? he was already gone and in Munster by the time Cheika was fired.

Burkie1203

jm08 wrote: »

I doubt if Cullen wants the Ireland job, but if he does, he needs more international experience bearing in mind that all Ireland's competition will be up against international opposition. Cullen doesn't even have many caps as an international to draw on. Take Stephen Larkham as an example - over 100 caps for Australia, Three years as Brumbies Head coach when they got to Super Rugby semi final, 4 years Australia Assistant Coach under Checka and was turned down for head coach job after checka because he didn't have enough international experience and why he is in Munster now.

Joe Schmidt. Irelands most successful coach. Tonnes of international experience (not) before he won 3 6n titles including a slam.

sydthebeat

errlloyd wrote: »

This goes both ways right? Leo has more experience working with the lads with the strengths and personalities of Irish players!

and that insular experience may not be a good thing for a national coach.

anyway, obviously my opinion, but i would put ROG way out in front of cullen right now as a choice.... and thats not in anyway to denigrate leo.