Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's "Long live John Hayes and shut up Buer".

What am I paying you for Squidgy?

My rugged manliness and my 8 pack abs.

Wait that's my side gig.....

sebdavis

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Throw enough money at Hansen and he might come out of retirement. What about Cheika?

Cheika is with Argentina last time I seen

Dubinusa

Lost Ormond wrote: »

ROG has far superior experience coaching in a wide range of clubs competing in multiple competitions from different countries which outweighs plenty of what Leo has done.


Too early. Is signed up until 2023 why would you talk about an extension so far out?

Just jesting of course! A lot of poster think he's toast this year. I hope they give him his full term.

Dubinusa

Will the IRFU ever appoint a Carolan or Payne into the set up? Does the assistant coaching etc, be specified by Farrell exclusively?
It seems to me that there are good options at the provinces. We'll see how Catt plays out soon enough, but if he's canned, is Farrell the sole lad in charge of the coaching team.
I don't think we have to go far to find good coaches. I wouldn't be disappointed if they brought Flannery into the fold. I think he’s the man to clean up the hookers throwing into line outs.

sebdavis

Dubinusa wrote: »

Will the IRFU ever appoint a Carolan or Payne into the set up? Does the assistant coaching etc, be specified by Farrell exclusively?
It seems to me that there are good options at the provinces. We'll see how Catt plays out soon enough, but if he's canned, is Farrell the sole lad in charge of the coaching team.
I don't think we have to go far to find good coaches. I wouldn't be disappointed if they brought Flannery into the fold. I think he’s the man to clean up the hookers throwing into line outs.

Why would the IRFU hire a head coach and then not allow him to pick his coaching team? that would be an absolute disaster.

jm08

sebdavis wrote: »

Did Larkham apply for the Aus job? he was already gone and in Munster by the time Cheika was fired.

When Cheika sacked him, he was retained by the ARU to work with 7s, juniors etc. as they did not want to lose him. He was up for the job about 2 years previous of being sacked and he was told then to get NH experience from what I recall.

jm08

sebdavis wrote: »

To throw a name into the mix, Rob Penney

I don't think its going well for Rob at the moment with the Tahs, Rob Kearneys new team beat them last week.

ScissorPaperRock

Was interesting listening to Paul O'Connell speaking about how one of the biggest changes in the team environment since his playing days is how player-driven it has become, and with a strong emphasis on that from Farrell.

I wonder if a player-driven approach could make the team more dependent on keeping certain players and personalities - players that are experienced, familiar with the environment and have the confidence and credibility to take that level of leadership. Compared to a more "top-down" where tactics and plays are defined and it's more a matter fitting in to a system.

Not saying one or the other is right or wrong, but you'd understand why there's such a premium on experience and consistency in squad selection, and not as much change as there is sometimes called for externally.

Dubinusa

sebdavis wrote: »

Why would the IRFU hire a head coach and then not allow him to pick his coaching team? that would be an absolute disaster.

Right! So supposing we get hammered this week and the following week and the union wants to keep Farrell, but not Easterby or Catt. Then, do they have the option of selling a Caolan etc to Farrell?

molloyjh

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Was interesting listening to Paul O'Connell speaking about how one of the biggest changes in the team environment since his playing days is how player-driven it has become, and with a strong emphasis on that from Farrell.

I wonder if a player-driven approach could make the team more dependent on keeping certain players and personalities - players that are experienced, familiar with the environment and have the confidence and credibility to take that level of leadership. Compared to a more "top-down" where tactics and plays are defined and it's more a matter fitting in to a system.

Not saying one or the other is right or wrong, but you'd understand why there's such a premium on experience and consistency in squad selection, and not as much change as there is sometimes called for externally.

Its an interesting one. Lancaster has often spoken about getting guys to be more vocal and trying to develop leaders in the squad. Apparently the Leinster lads weren't that heavily involved outside of a few key guys. I wonder if this is an extension of that. Are they both effectively trying to empower players more and is there a cultural difference there between England and Ireland that they are trying to bridge. It would def push a lot of guys out of their comfort zones, which may be no bad thing. It may not suit though either.

Downlinz

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Was interesting listening to Paul O'Connell speaking about how one of the biggest changes in the team environment since his playing days is how player-driven it has become, and with a strong emphasis on that from Farrell.

I wonder if a player-driven approach could make the team more dependent on keeping certain players and personalities - players that are experienced, familiar with the environment and have the confidence and credibility to take that level of leadership. Compared to a more "top-down" where tactics and plays are defined and it's more a matter fitting in to a system.

Not saying one or the other is right or wrong, but you'd understand why there's such a premium on experience and consistency in squad selection, and not as much change as there is sometimes called for externally.

It feels like the wrong time in this teams cycle for a shift to a player driven approach when we have so many of the teams leaders into their 30s and in notable decline. We should be reducing our reliance on those guys and managing a transition at the moment, not increasing it and delaying the inevitable.

It's unfortunate since Farrell's approach might have been great for this group a few years ago but I think we'd benefit from the greater structure from a top down approach like a Gatland type coach at the moment.

sebdavis

Downlinz wrote: »

It feels like the wrong time in this teams cycle for a shift to a player driven approach when we have so many of the teams leaders into their 30s and in notable decline. We should be reducing our reliance on those guys and managing a transition at the moment, not increasing it and delaying the inevitable.

It's unfortunate since Farrell's approach might have been great for this group a few years ago but I think we'd benefit from the greater structure from a top down approach like a Gatland type coach at the moment.

The leadership group includes player like Furlong & Henderson. Players who should be in the next World Cup and beyond.

I would expect Ryan has been introduced as well to that group.

molloyjh

sebdavis wrote: »

The leadership group includes player like Furlong & Henderson. Players who should be in the next World Cup and beyond.

I would expect Ryan has been introduced as well to that group.

I also think that the player driven thing is about giving all the players a voice and ownership, not just the leadership group.

sebdavis

molloyjh wrote: »

I also think that the player driven thing is about giving all the players a voice and ownership, not just the leadership group.

I'm trying to remember but wasn't that a huge part of the feedback from Best etc after the last WC.

If not like these guys are babies. Most people in early 20's are out working in a full time job. Based on Gatland he said Irish players do ask questions etc.
https://punditarena.com/rugby/eoin-harte/gatland-irish-english-welsh-0/

El_Duderino 09

Downlinz wrote: »

It feels like the wrong time in this teams cycle for a shift to a player driven approach when we have so many of the teams leaders into their 30s and in notable decline. We should be reducing our reliance on those guys and managing a transition at the moment, not increasing it and delaying the inevitable.

It's unfortunate since Farrell's approach might have been great for this group a few years ago but I think we'd benefit from the greater structure from a top down approach like a Gatland type coach at the moment.

I was thinking the exact opposite. We need guys like Ringrose, Larmour, Casey, Furlong, Keenan, Beirne, Kelleher and the other leaders of tomorrow, to be part of a player led approach so they can do the business in the next decade. If Jonny and Cian Healy are doing all the talking then it's not a lot of use. But if the future leaders are working with the established leaders (who will be gone soon), then it makes loads of sense.

Anythign would be more player led than the Joe Schmidt era, but i worry that Farrell isn't leading from the top because he doesn't have the skills to do so .

Fredinho

As we head out of RWC 2023 what is our leadership group going to look like. Assuming Henderson and Ryan are givens, you'd also have Furlong, Ringrose and Henshaw until 2027 most likely. Is Casey the consensus 9 after RWC? For the life of me i don't understand how Luke McGrath is not involved in Ireland squads. I'd have him as second to Murray with both on full form and can't understand that he's not starting games in green. If Casey is the consensus 9 he'd be involved and whomever the 10 will be from Harry Byrne and a hopefully fit Joey Carberry.

typhoony

Fredinho wrote: »

As we head out of RWC 2023 what is our leadership group going to look like. Assuming Henderson and Ryan are givens, you'd also have Furlong, Ringrose and Henshaw until 2027 most likely. Is Casey the consensus 9 after RWC? For the life of me i don't understand how Luke McGrath is not involved in Ireland squads. I'd have him as second to Murray with both on full form and can't understand that he's not starting games in green. If Casey is the consensus 9 he'd be involved and whomever the 10 will be from Harry Byrne and a hopefully fit Joey Carberry.

i've said numerous times i just can't see how or why Casey is ahead of McGrath and Marmion. Casey was poor enough against Connacht last week, especially his box-kicking. thought both Connacht scrum-halves out-played him but then again I am biased.

sydthebeat

typhoony wrote: »

i've said numerous times i just can't see how or why Casey is ahead of McGrath and Marmion. Casey was poor enough against Connacht last week, especially his box-kicking. thought both Connacht scrum-halves out-played him but then again I am biased.

Think you've asked and answered you own question there typhoony

CowboyTed

sydthebeat wrote: »

Think you've asked and answered you own question there typhoony

He was out played... But that is just because he is not ready, games like those will stand to him...

Marmion and Blade and very underrated... Marmion especially...

There seems to be a belief in other quarters because Marmion is fighting for a position with Blade he must have dropped. Blade had Cooney in trouble when he was 21 and Cooney was 25....

I would say that Blade who is only 26 is 5 years younger than Murray and 5 years older than Casey is worth a look...

As for Marmion, his CV is only second to Conor Murray's for international achievement. He started on wins against All Blacks, England and Wales... He outplayed Aaron Smith that day against New Zealand (by the New Zealand Hearld)...

Luke McGrath is a fine player but has failed on big days (two Saracans games come to mind) and has not started in a a major win internationally... Marmion had won a Pro 14 and beaten New Zealand and England by the time McGrath had secured his number one slot in Leinster. They were born on the same month..

kuang1

I'm a big fan of Marmions.

But wasn't there chat about his attitude being off in the Irish camp? That's why he didn't get chosen for Japan?

I know it's gossip-type shyte, and I wouldn't bite into that.
But his lack of selection DESPITE his performance level would somewhat feed into that rumour no?

Burkie1203

CowboyTed wrote: »

Luke McGrath is a fine player but has failed on big days (two Saracans games come to mind) and has not started in a a major win internationally... Marmion had won a Pro 14 and beaten New Zealand and England by the time McGrath had secured his number one slot in Leinster. They were born on the same month..

McGrath was stuck behind Reddan and Boss for a few seasons where Matt O'Connor largely ignored player development.

McGrath has won a European Cup and 3 x Pro14 titles

Former Former Former

kuang1 wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Marmions.

But wasn't there chat about his attitude being off in the Irish camp? That's why he didn't get chosen for Japan?

I know it's gossip-type shyte, and I wouldn't bite into that.
But his lack of selection DESPITE his performance level would somewhat feed into that rumour no?

Ah you hear that about everyone these days. It's all bullsh1t.

Marmion got capped in the autumn so it's not like he's been completely ignored, but it's getting harder to make a compelling case for including him in the Ireland squad based on his performances.

the baby bull elephant

CowboyTed wrote: »

They were born on the same month..

But not in the same year...

TRC10

Burkie1203 wrote: »

McGrath was stuck behind Reddan and Boss for a few seasons where Matt O'Connor largely ignored player development.

McGrath has won a European Cup and 3 x Pro14 titles

I think McGrath's slow and deliberate style of play is why he isn't in Farrell's plans.

Also, his passing has let him down on many occasions. Watch Leinster's last 2 games v Saracens. In both games he's thrown some wild passes that really put his team under pressure and cost Leinster. At one stage in the 1/4 last season he actually threw the ball over Sexton's head in Leinster's 22, which led to Saracens winning a penalty.

bayern

McGrath is a very good scrumhalf but his passing limits him from being a top level international.

Rigor Mortis

Former Former Former wrote: »

Ah you hear that about everyone these days. It's all bullsh1t.

Who do you hear it about. You hear it pretty rarely. Zeebs a few years back. McCloskey ditto. AKi this year.

Can you think of anyone else?

Interested Observer

Personally I think McGrath has hit his level at Euro rugby, he's definitely good enough for Leinster and obviously good enough to win a European cup but I don't think he's quick or accurate enough with his pass for international rugby, and I think his box kicking can be erratic. It's shame because all the other elements of his game are so good, his support play/defence/running game are top notch imo.

bayern

Leinster could do with a dedicated skills coach IMO, passing skills aren't as high as you'd aim for especially from most of their 9's.

sebdavis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Who do you hear it about. You hear it pretty rarely. Zeebs a few years back. McCloskey ditto. AKi this year.

Can you think of anyone else?

Cooney and anyone else who fans think should be in the squad and are not

Cronin for a long time had loads of stories floating around why he wasn't getting a chance at 2.

Also a lot of stories going around at one stage, the same story but the player was either Marmion, McGrath or Cronin depending on who you talked to. :P

If you ask the Ulster fans now they say the reason Cooney isnt in the squad is because Sexton runs the entire team and he doesn't like Cooney

Interested Observer

sebdavis wrote: »

Cooney and anyone else who fans think should be in the squad and are not

Cronin for a long time had loads of stories floating around why he wasn't getting a chance at 2.

Also a lot of stories going around at one stage, the same story but the player was either Marmion, McGrath or Cronin depending on who you talked to. :P

If you ask the Ulster fans now they say the reason Cooney isnt in the squad is because Sexton runs the entire team and he doesn't like Cooney

Cronin won about 70 caps! The vast majority were from the bench but he was ever present in the squad once Flannery retired.