Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Yeah_Right

I don't understand why people are calling for Marmion to be "given a chance". He has been in Irish squads since the summer of 2013. He has been given starts in some big tests. And he has not been able to cement his place as the back up to Murray or put pressure on the starting spot in 8 years.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't understand why people are calling for Marmion to be "given a chance". He has been in Irish squads since the summer of 2013. He has been given starts in some big tests. And he has not been able to cement his place as the back up to Murray or put pressure on the starting spot in 8 years.

Agreed

ive no problem currently with Murray, JGP and Casey fighting it out for the 9 jersey..... even if it means by passing the likes of Luke, Marmion and Cooney.

at least blade has time on his side to make more of a push... he needs to become the out and out first choice for Connacht though.

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

Agreed

ive no problem currently with Murray, JGP and Casey fighting it out for the 9 jersey..... even if it means by passing the likes of Luke, Marmion and Cooney.

at least blade has time on his side to make more of a push... he needs to become the out and out first choice for Connacht though.

Agreed. However Blade might want to get a move on. He's 27 (I think). As you say, needs to nail down the number 1 spot at Connacht and then push on.

As some others have said, McGrath has hit his ceiling. He is great for Leinster, could do a job for Ireland if there was an injury crisis but I don't see him as along term starter.

I think the international ship has sailed for Cooney and that shouldn't really be a surprise. He couldn't get his game at Leinster, moved to Connacht and struggled for game time there. Took his chance at Ulster and played really well for a couple of seasons but then his form dipped again. I admire his resilience but when you look at his 10 year career, its understandable why he is struggling to crack the Irish set up.

Bazzo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't understand why people are calling for Marmion to be "given a chance". He has been in Irish squads since the summer of 2013. He has been given starts in some big tests. And he has not been able to cement his place as the back up to Murray or put pressure on the starting spot in 8 years.

Given chances and... Taken them?

It's not that he should be "given a chance" it's that there's no obvious reason why he isn't there.

Tommybojangles

Marmion is well beyond being given a chance. He got chances and took them and I've yet to hear any decent reason why he was subsequently jettisoned.

Edit: Snap Bazzo

leakyboots

bayern wrote: »

McGrath is a very good scrumhalf but his passing limits him from being a top level international.

And his boxkicking, it's never been up to scratch.



He has a lovely break though and defence is good, still a good scrumhalf like you said, just not at international level

bilston

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think the international ship has sailed for Cooney and that shouldn't really be a surprise. He couldn't get his game at Leinster, moved to Connacht and struggled for game time there. Took his chance at Ulster and played really well for a couple of seasons but then his form dipped again. I admire his resilience but when you look at his 10 year career, its understandable why he is struggling to crack the Irish set up.

Cooney's form dipped for 3 matches!! There is something more fundamental than his form at play.

Anyway, I agree the ship has sailed for him now. Murray Gibson Park and Casey seem to be where its at.

sydthebeat

Tommybojangles wrote: »

Marmion is well beyond being given a chance. He got chances and took them and I've yet to hear any decent reason why he was subsequently jettisoned.

Edit: Snap Bazzo

Maybe struggling to nail down his position as first choice at his province and the lack of game time at the highest level in Europe may have something to do with it?

of course, notwithstanding what happens in camp, where he has been pretty much all of the 5 years Andy Farrell has been with Ireland.

Marmion has to get beyond Murray and JGP in camp, not Casey. Casey is being groomed as a long term project

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Cooney's form dipped for 3 matches!! There is something more fundamental than his form at play.

To be honest, I've watched Cooney a lot this season and his strong performances have come against the weaker teams for the most part. When he has faced off against the likes of JGP, Casey and McGrath, he has been second best. I think he's really delivered from where he once was and didn't enjoy much favour from several coaches in the past but I'm struggling to see any logic in him being called up at any point this season.

I think there was a 10 minute period in the game last weekend which really underlined his inconsistencies around decision making and execution. First he kicked it away aimlessly when Ulster had 2 extra men on the field which allowed Leinster get Toner back on the field. Then when Ulster were in the reverse position and needed to manage possession and the clock, he threw a pass to nobody which set Ulster back 15m and then he kicked poorly again giving Leinster possession (they scored a decisive try 90 seconds later).

He's an excellent rugby player but he just has these moments of inaccuracy that prevent him from getting test recognition in any significant capacity. Luke McGrath is the same regarding execution; his passing simply cannot be trusted consistently at test level despite his skills in other areas.

Yeah_Right

Bazzo wrote: »

Given chances and... Taken them?

It's not that he should be "given a chance" it's that there's no obvious reason why he isn't there.

8 years in and out of the Irish squad. He isn't taking his chances. Its not like he got called up for 1 season, played great and was never selected again. He has been selected for Irish camps on a regular basis over the past 8 years yet he can't cement his place in the match day 23. What does that tell you?

Yeah_Right

bilston wrote: »

Cooney's form dipped for 3 matches!! There is something more fundamental than his form at play.

Anyway, I agree the ship has sailed for him now. Murray Gibson Park and Casey seem to be where its at.

I think Cooney was unlucky. He was in the best form of career, Murray was still out of form and covid hit. When they started playing again, Cooney's form had dropped significantly and Murray's had improved (a bit). But that was probably Cooney's opportunity gone.

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe struggling to nail down his position as first choice at his province and the lack of game time at the highest level in Europe may have something to do with it?

of course, notwithstanding what happens in camp, where he has been pretty much all of the 5 years Andy Farrell has been with Ireland.

Marmion has to get beyond Murray and JGP in camp, not Casey. Casey is being groomed as a long term project

His position was nailed down at the time of his jettisoning, prior to that he had strong performances in two wins against England and New Zealand. Gibson Park was second choice for Leinster for three years.

His exclusion from the World Cup was strange and a reflection of Schmidt doubling down on a limited conservative game plan that had failed for the previous nine months and would subsequently fail at the World Cup.

Bazzo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

8 years in and out of the Irish squad. He isn't taking his chances. Its not like he got called up for 1 season, played great and was never selected again. He has been selected for Irish camps on a regular basis over the past 8 years yet he can't cement his place in the match day 23. What does that tell you?

Nothing really. None of us can judge him on anything other than what we've seen. He's started some big games for Ireland and performed well in them.

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

His position was nailed down at the time of his jettisoning, prior to that he had strong performances in two wins against England and New Zealand. Gibson Park was second choice for Leinster for three years.

His exclusion from the World Cup was strange and a reflection of Schmidt doubling down on a limited conservative game plan that had failed for the previous nine months and would subsequently fail at the World Cup.

In fairness to Joe, Marmion didn't lose out to Murray in the selection, he lost out to Joey Carbery. Not sure you'd call that conservative... Marmion just didn't do enough to get on the plane.

Gibson-Park is the exact illustration of what Marmion (and McGrath and Cooney) could not do. He got his chance and he grabbed it with both hands. Some players manage it, others don't.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe struggling to nail down his position as first choice at his province and the lack of game time at the highest level in Europe may have something to do with it?

of course, notwithstanding what happens in camp, where he has been pretty much all of the 5 years Andy Farrell has been with Ireland.

Marmion has to get beyond Murray and JGP in camp, not Casey. Casey is being groomed as a long term project

Not being able to cement first choice position at his province doesn't seem to be an issue for JGP.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

In fairness to Joe, Marmion didn't lose out to Murray in the selection, he lost out to Joey Carbery. Not sure you'd call that conservative... Marmion just didn't do enough to get on the plane.

Gibson-Park is the exact illustration of what Marmion (and McGrath and Cooney) could not do. He got his chance and he grabbed it with both hands. Some players manage it, others don't.

This makes absolutely no sense to be honest. JGP has been, at best, a middling performer.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I've watched Cooney a lot this season and his strong performances have come against the weaker teams for the most part. When he has faced off against the likes of JGP, Casey and McGrath, he has been second best. I think he's really delivered from where he once was and didn't enjoy much favour from several coaches in the past but I'm struggling to see any logic in him being called up at any point this season.

I think there was a 10 minute period in the game last weekend which really underlined his inconsistencies around decision making and execution. First he kicked it away aimlessly when Ulster had 2 extra men on the field which allowed Leinster get Toner back on the field. Then when Ulster were in the reverse position and needed to manage possession and the clock, he threw a pass to nobody which set Ulster back 15m and then he kicked poorly again giving Leinster possession (they scored a decisive try 90 seconds later).

He's an excellent rugby player but he just has these moments of inaccuracy that prevent him from getting test recognition in any significant capacity. Luke McGrath is the same regarding execution; his passing simply cannot be trusted consistently at test level despite his skills in other areas.

Yeah, look I've never been a massive cheerleader for him getting into the Ireland team. I dont think there is much between JGP, Cooney and Marmion etc, so maybe he could have got more than couple of caps. For example I've never seen anything to suggest JGP is better than Cooney.

Cooney has always struck me as an off the cuff sort of player who can create something from nothing. His fundamental scrum half play has sometimes been up and down.

Obviously it would be frustrating for him if he lost his place in the squad off the back of 3 bad games in September, when others have been off form for longer. But thats why I think there is more to it (I.e his passing isn't as good as Casey and his kicking isn't as good as Murray's)

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

In fairness to Joe, Marmion didn't lose out to Murray in the selection, he lost out to Joey Carbery. Not sure you'd call that conservative... Marmion just didn't do enough to get on the plane.

Gibson-Park is the exact illustration of what Marmion (and McGrath and Cooney) could not do. He got his chance and he grabbed it with both hands. Some players manage it, others don't.

He lost out to Luke McGrath and I would think largely because McGrath box kicks better. Conservative.

As for Gibson Park he has done alright. Haven’t seen anything to say he will definitely be in squad long term so your call seems premature.

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

Not being able to cement first choice position at his province doesn't seem to be an issue for JGP.

but playing at the highest levels in europe helps JGP.. i deliberately included teh word and in there

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

This makes absolutely no sense to be honest. JGP has been, at best, a middling performer.

And yet there he is in the squad while Marmion, Cooney and McGrath are not.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

This makes absolutely no sense to be honest. JGP has been, at best, a middling performer.

in which case it just goes to show how lowly his competition must have been performing in camp, or seen to be performing in big games.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

And yet there he is in the squad while Marmion, Cooney and McGrath are not.

It still makes no sense. He has been in the squad five minutes, Marmion was in every squad for two years or so. If Park is still there in two years you might have a point.

Garda Kenny

ClanofLams wrote: »

His position was nailed down at the time of his jettisoning, prior to that he had strong performances in two wins against England and New Zealand. Gibson Park was second choice for Leinster for three years.

His exclusion from the World Cup was strange and a reflection of Schmidt doubling down on a limited conservative game plan that had failed for the previous nine months and would subsequently fail at the World Cup.

You’d wonder how JGP was behind McGrath for 3 seasons. Better athleticism, decision making, passing is better more accurate and incisive and his box kicking doesn’t fail like McGraths does on occasion.

McGrath has his fan club but I can’t help but think the right decision is finally being made in Ireland camp with him being there and McGrath being left outside.

As for Cooney he was for long periods (scratch that) was for most of his career a better scrum half than McGrath and was dropped in place of someone with only a better defensive game than him.

McGrath still has his defenders on here but I think the story of his career is one of steady if unflattering performance after another without ever displaying what his competitors JGP and Cooney had on occasion - brilliance.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

It still makes no sense. He has been in the squad five minutes, Marmion was in every squad for two years or so. If Park is still there in two years you might have a point.

to be fair you're not exactly coming at it from a non-biased viewpoint.

if you were, the sense may be more easily seen.

sebdavis

Garda Kenny wrote: »

You’d wonder how JGP was behind McGrath for 3 seasons. Better athleticism, decision making, passing is better more accurate and incisive and his box kicking doesn’t fail like McGraths does on occasion.

McGrath has his fan club but I can’t help but think the right decision is finally being made in Ireland camp with him being there and McGrath being left outside.

As for Cooney he was for long periods (scratch that) was for most of his career a better scrum half than McGrath and was dropped in place of someone with only a better defensive game than him.

McGrath still has his defenders on here but I think the story of his career is one of steady if unflattering performance after another without ever displaying what his competitors JGP and Cooney had on occasion - brilliance.

The season Leinster won the HC in 2018 McGrath was brilliant all season. People had huge concerns over JGP in the semi when McGrath wasn't fit. In the end that game actually showed what JGP could offer

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

It still makes no sense. He has been in the squad five minutes, Marmion was in every squad for two years or so. If Park is still there in two years you might have a point.

But that's exactly the point!

Yes, Marmion has been in loads of squads, going back eight years and probably in every wider squad from 2015 onwards, and yet still finds himself exactly where he was in 2015, at the back of the queue.

Gibson-Park got one chance and left three more experienced SHs for dust. I don't know if he will be there in two years or not but I'd be surprised if it's Cooney, McGrath or Marmion who oust him.

Whether it's the right call or not, lack of opportunity is not Marmion's problem.

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be fair you're not exactly coming at it from a non-biased viewpoint.

if you were, the sense may be more easily seen.

You might be kind enough to point out how Park has taken his chance when Marmion didn’t. The latter started and performed well in wins over a rampant England and New Zealand. Park has done alright off the bench v Wales, same in defeat to France and thought he was good v Italy.

He hasn’t done anything to suggest he’s nailed down squad member long term.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

But that's exactly the point!

Yes, Marmion has been in loads of squads, going back eight years and probably in every wider squad from 2015 onwards, and yet still finds himself exactly where he was in 2015, at the back of the queue.

Gibson-Park got one chance and left three more experienced SHs for dust.

Whether it's the right call or not, lack of opportunity is not Marmion's problem.

For dust - I think you need to relax on the hyperbole! He’s made it in one Six Nations squad, a squad that is potentially on track for Ireland’s worst championship in decades.

Let’s see how long Park hangs around before stating he took his chance better than others who have actually delivered in historic Ireland wins.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

And yet there he is in the squad while Marmion, Cooney and McGrath are not.

Yes, but this does not prove what you think it does.

This is the same old confirmation bias. JGP is in the squad, therefore he must be better than any other option.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be fair you're not exactly coming at it from a non-biased viewpoint.

if you were, the sense may be more easily seen.

Neither are you