Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

For dust - I think you need to relax on the hyperbole!

Relax on the hyperbole?! Where's the fun in that?

ClanofLams wrote: »

He’s made it in one Six Nations squad, a squad that is potentially on track for Ireland’s worst championship in decades.

Let’s see how long Park hangs around before stating he took his chance better than others who have actually delivered in historic Ireland wins.

FWIW, I don't think JGP is a world-beating player. I've seen probably every game he's played since he landed here and there have been face-palm moments beyond measure.

If Casey is as good as our southern cousins think, then it will all be moot.

But for Marmion, the NZ game is two and a half years ago. It's unfortunate that (I think) he got injured ahead of the 2019 6N which left Cooney as next cab off the rank but still, the fact remains that the previous coach wasn't in a rush to bring him back and neither was the new one.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

Relax on the hyperbole?! Where's the fun in that?



FWIW, I don't think JGP is a world-beating player. I've seen probably every game he's played since he landed here and there have been face-palm moments beyond measure.

If Casey is as good as our southern cousins think, then it will all be moot.

But for Marmion, the NZ game is two and a half years ago. It's unfortunate that (I think) he got injured ahead of the 2019 6N which left Cooney as next cab off the rank but still, the fact remains that the previous coach wasn't in a rush to bring him back and neither was the new one.

And the results of the previous coach and the new one in that time period have been extremely disappointing. Their calls may not be correct and indeed results would suggest they have gotten a lot wrong.

Yeah_Right

ClanofLams wrote: »

It still makes no sense. He has been in the squad five minutes, Marmion was in every squad for two years or so. If Park is still there in two years you might have a point.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is in the 8 years Marmion has been in and out of Irish training camps, he hasn't shown enough to convince the coaches that he is the answer. in the short time JGP has been there, he has done what the coaches want from him. Basically one guy is taking his chance and one guy hasn't taken his.

ClanofLams

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The only conclusion I can draw from that is in the 8 years Marmion has been in and out of Irish training camps, he hasn't shown enough to convince the coaches that he is the answer. in the short time JGP has been there, he has done what the coaches want from him. Basically one guy is taking his chance and one guy hasn't taken his.

One has actually delivered strong performances in big games for Ireland. One has not at this point.

The coaching ticket you reference are responsible for an under performing Ireland team the last two and a half years.

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

And the results of the previous coach and the new one in that time period have been extremely disappointing. Their calls may not be correct and indeed results would suggest they have gotten a lot wrong.

We're arguing two different things.

You're arguing that JGP is not the second best scrum-half we have. I have no idea if he is or not. Maybe. I honestly don't think that there is much between any of the four of them.

What I'm arguing is that Marmion has had more than enough time to stake his claim. Honestly, they could have called him up to this squad instead of Casey and I don't think it would have made a bit of difference, they've seen what they want to see from him.

Must love hardship

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The only conclusion I can draw from that is in the 8 years Marmion has been in and out of Irish training camps, he hasn't shown enough to convince the coaches that he is the answer. in the short time JGP has been there, he has done what the coaches want from him. Basically one guy is taking his chance and one guy hasn't taken his.

Jgp is lucky that Murray has been injured simple as that. No way he would have started 2 games in 6 nations only for an injury.. he's never been a regular starter in his career at club level.

Yeah_Right

Former Former Former wrote: »

We're arguing two different things.

You're arguing that JGP is not the second best scrum-half we have. I have no idea if he is or not. Maybe. I honestly don't think that there is much between any of the four of them.

What I'm arguing is that Marmion has had more than enough time to stake his claim. Honestly, they could have called him up to this squad instead of Casey and I don't think it would have made a bit of difference, they've seen what they want to see from him.

This is exactly the point I'm arguing as well. In the HB pecking order it appears Murray is at the top (though I don't think he should be), theres Casey who is the young rising star with loads of potential. Then there is JGP, McGrath, Cooney and Marmion who have all had turns in Irish squad and none of them have nailed down the back up spot or gotten ahead of Murray.

Maybe JGP will do it and maybe he'll be cast aside as well and Blade will get a shot. I don't think any of that group of 4 can claim they haven't been given a chance.

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

Neither are you

??
im not clamouring for my provincial player to be starting ahead of his competitors?

im explaining why it may be difficult to see why certain players are selected ahead of others.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

We're arguing two different things.

You're arguing that JGP is not the second best scrum-half we have. I have no idea if he is or not. Maybe. I honestly don't think that there is much between any of the four of them.

What I'm arguing is that Marmion has had more than enough time to stake his claim. Honestly, they could have called him up to this squad instead of Casey and I don't think it would have made a bit of difference, they've seen what they want to see from him.

I’m not arguing that at all.

I’m arguing that your statement that Park had taken his chance unlike Marmion is nonsense. Park has been involved for a few games done nothing too bad or too good. I suspect he will be a relatively fleeting presence in the Irish squad.

Your statement that he had taken his chance unlike Marmion doesn’t make much, if any, sense when presented with the on field evidence of their performances in green.

An under performing coaching ticket has opted to select Park in the squad. That is not evidence he has taken his chance more than Marmion or anywhere close to it.

Dubinusa

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I've watched Cooney a lot this season and his strong performances have come against the weaker teams for the most part. When he has faced off against the likes of JGP, Casey and McGrath, he has been second best. I think he's really delivered from where he once was and didn't enjoy much favour from several coaches in the past but I'm struggling to see any logic in him being called up at any point this season.

I think there was a 10 minute period in the game last weekend which really underlined his inconsistencies around decision making and execution. First he kicked it away aimlessly when Ulster had 2 extra men on the field which allowed Leinster get Toner back on the field. Then when Ulster were in the reverse position and needed to manage possession and the clock, he threw a pass to nobody which set Ulster back 15m and then he kicked poorly again giving Leinster possession (they scored a decisive try 90 seconds later).

He's an excellent rugby player but he just has these moments of inaccuracy that prevent him from getting test recognition in any significant capacity. Luke McGrath is the same regarding execution; his passing simply cannot be trusted consistently at test level despite his skills in other areas.

I think the inaccuracies are true for everybody. Decisions made on the field affect the entire team and I think that several of our stalwart international players have made some poor decisions that have put the team on the backfoot. But, some lads are given more leeway.

yerrahbah

Bizarre from Hugh Cahill


https://twitter.com/RTErugby/status/1369752365998411776

Yeah_Right

ClanofLams wrote: »

One has actually delivered strong performances in big games for Ireland. One has not at this point.

The coaching ticket you reference are responsible for an under performing Ireland team the last two and a half years.

So Marmion has put in a decent performance in a couple of big games yet he still gets dropped. Gets called back into the squad and then released. A couple of guys who haven't been in the Ireland squad before get selected ahead of him. What does that tell you?

Ireland has been under performing for the past couple of years so the coaching ticket decide to look at some new faces and that based on 8 years of evidence that Marmion isn't the one to turn it around.

Also his name is Gibson-Park not Park. It would be like me referring to Marmion as Mion. Sorry but that was really bugging me.

Dubinusa

What really amazed me these past couple of seasons is how Murray retained his position. Clearly he was not at the races and yet he was trotted out match after match.
For the past few seasons, I've thought that the national side was well stocked with scrum halves. Anyone of them could do a good job. But yet, they were overlooked. You could infer a lot of things from this, that Murray was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else and that he was undroppable.
But he was awful! He's still nowhere near his previous form and I believe that there's no gap between him or the others. Meanwhile, Cooney was lights out. He was brilliant and easily outperforming all of our other scrum halves. Yet, he waned away on the sidelines as Murray underperformed for 70 minutes a match. I think the coaches were flogging a wounded horse, in the hope Murray would regain form.
I expect Murray will be selected this week. I don't think JGP has done anything to surpass him yet. I hope Murray does perform well and we win. But, if he's poor and we lose, I think JGP should be given the start against England. Picking on reputation doesn't work if the player selected has been poor, imo.

Buer

I think people are really underselling JGP at this point in time. He's never going to be a guy who will be a 50 cap test player but he's in form, playing well and offers something very different from our other options. His instincts are to move the ball instantly either with his passing or breaking. None of our other options bring the same energy to the ruck area aside from Casey. Even Blade (before people jump down my throat) doesn't bring the same level of speed at moving the ball away from the base.

Stuart Barnes was making an interesting point recently that Sexton and Murray don't work well together anymore. The opposition know that neither of them have the legs or pace to threaten around the ruck area. Cover the box kick and rush up on Sexton and you're pretty much neutering the Irish attack. However, JGP offers a genuine threat around the ruck and also moves the ball more quickly (and erratically on occasion). His box kicking isn't in the same bracket at all and his defence probably isn't as strong even at this point of Murray's career but, from a pure attacking perspective, he gives his back line more to work with.

He plays almost like the glut of Welsh scrum halves we've seen in recent years who come through, have a great couple of years and then become peripheral figures at times. Tomos Williams, Lloyd Williams, Aled Davies, Gareth Davies....none have nailed down the jersey long term but all have brought a lot to it at times.

I think JGP will be a feature in the Irish 23 for a year or two and then fizzle out more than likely. But, at this point in time, he has earned his spot in the 23 as much for the fact that he compliments Sexton's strengths (or weaknesses, in fact) as well if not better than anyone else. People seem to forget that he started against both Wales and England in the autumn with Murray on the bench.

ClanofLams

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So Marmion has put in a decent performance in a couple of big games yet he still gets dropped. Gets called back into the squad and then released. A couple of guys who haven't been in the Ireland squad before get selected ahead of him. What does that tell you?

Ireland has been under performing for the past couple of years so the coaching ticket decide to look at some new faces and that based on 8 years of evidence that Marmion isn't the one to turn it around.

I’m not and haven’t argued Marmion should be in the current squad. My only point was that saying Park took his chance more than Marmion is compete nonsense and based on nothing other than Parks selection in a six nations squad that is potentially on course for the worst championship Ireland have had in twenty odd years.

Decisions of any coaching staff, especially the one leading Ireland currently, are not infallible.

Fredinho

Buer wrote:

Stuart Barnes was making an interesting point recently that Sexton and Murray don't work well together anymore. The opposition know that neither of them have the legs or pace to threaten around the ruck area. Cover the box kick and rush up on Sexton and you're pretty much neutering the Irish attack. However, JGP offers a genuine threat around the ruck and also moves the ball more quickly (and erratically on occasion). His box kicking isn't in the same bracket at all and his defence probably isn't as strong even at this point of Murray's career but, from a pure attacking perspective, he gives his back line more to work with.

Just a small point here, why should Murray be sacrificed to play Sexton of the above is true. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to either but if sexton ain't going to RWC and Murray is them shouldn't we be bedding Murray in with someone else in that case!!

sydthebeat

Fredinho wrote: »

Just a small point here, why should Murray be sacrificed to play Sexton of the above is true. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to either but if sexton ain't going to RWC and Murray is them shouldn't we be bedding Murray in with someone else in that case!!

isnt the answer obvious?

because the gulf in class between Sexton and his alternatives is much greater than the gulf in class between Murray and his alternatives.

TRC10

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So Marmion has put in a decent performance in a couple of big games yet he still gets dropped. Gets called back into the squad and then released. A couple of guys who haven't been in the Ireland squad before get selected ahead of him. What does that tell you?

Ireland has been under performing for the past couple of years so the coaching ticket decide to look at some new faces and that based on 8 years of evidence that Marmion isn't the one to turn it around.

Also his name is Gibson-Park not Park. It would be like me referring to Marmion as Mion. Sorry but that was really bugging me.

Your argument that 'JGP being in the squad and marmion not being, means JGP has taken his chance and Marmion hasn't' is grounded on the assumption that the coaches/selectors are always right.

If we're going to use the logic of 'if the coach picks player A ahead of player B. Then player A must be better'. Then what's the point in discussing any selections?

The coaches can and have gotten selections wrong.

JGP being picked ahead of Marmion does not prove that JGP has taken his chances and Marmion hasn't.

All it proves is they rate player A over player B.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

Your argument that 'JGP being in the squad and marmion not being, means JGP has taken his chance and Marmion hasn't' is grounded on the assumption that the coaches/selectors are always right.

If we're going to use the logic of 'if the coach picks player A ahead of player B. Then player A must be better'. Then what's the point in discussing any selections?

The coaches can and have gotten selections wrong.

JGP being picked ahead of Marmion does not prove that JGP has taken his chances and Marmion hasn't.

All it proves is they rate player A over player B.

sure who ever said coaching a national test team was difficult

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

sure who ever said coaching a national test team was difficult

I'm sure it's incredibly difficult.

But if we're going to assume that every decision coaches make is correct, then what's the point in discussing them?

Former Former Former

TRC10 wrote: »

I'm sure it's incredibly difficult.

But if we're going to assume that every decision coaches make is correct, then what's the point in discussing them?

It's an utter nonsense that anyone is suggesting the coaches are infallible.

Yeah_Right

TRC10 wrote: »

Your argument that 'JGP being in the squad and marmion not being, means JGP has taken his chance and Marmion hasn't' is grounded on the assumption that the coaches/selectors are always right.

If we're going to use the logic of 'if the coach picks player A ahead of player B. Then player A must be better'. Then what's the point in discussing any selections?

The coaches can and have gotten selections wrong.

JGP being picked ahead of Marmion does not prove that JGP has taken his chances and Marmion hasn't.

All it proves is they rate player A over player B.

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest he has taken his chance, I mean he is getting his chance. If I worded it otherwise, thats my mistake. JGP is getting a shot. What he makes of it is up to him and the selectors.

Do you agree that over the past 8 years, Marmion has had plenty of opportunities to stake a claim to be a regular in the Irish match day squad?

crossman47

Fredinho wrote: »

Just a small point here, why should Murray be sacrificed to play Sexton of the above is true. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to either but if sexton ain't going to RWC and Murray is them shouldn't we be bedding Murray in with someone else in that case!!

Why this constant preoccupation with a competition we won't win? Forget about the RWC for now and concentrate on the Six Nations.

TRC10

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest he has taken his chance, I mean he is getting his chance. If I worded it otherwise, thats my mistake. JGP is getting a shot. What he makes of it is up to him and the selectors.

Do you agree that over the past 8 years, Marmion has had plenty of opportunities to stake a claim to be a regular in the Irish match day squad?

I'm not saying Marmion should be in the 23. I actually don't. I just think its hugely unfair to suggest that Marmion hasn't taken his chances (I know you weren't saying that) when in 2 huge games Marmion has more than stepped up to the plate in the absence of the world's best scrum half.

I'm not part of the Marmion hype brigade. But I think he's a very good player and if theres one thing that can never be said of Marmion, it's that he hasn't taken his chances.

He 100% did more than enough in the last world cup cycle to cement his place as backup scrum half to Murray.

Yeah_Right

TRC10 wrote: »

I'm not saying Marmion should be in the 23. I actually don't. I just think its hugely unfair to suggest that Marmion hasn't taken his chances (I know you weren't saying that) when in 2 huge games Marmion has more than stepped up to the plate in the absence of the world's best scrum half.

I'm not part of the Marmion hype brigade. But I think he's a very good player and if theres one thing that can never be said of Marmion, it's that he hasn't taken his chances.

He 100% did more than enough in the last world cup cycle to cement his place as backup scrum half to Murray.

Yet there is something about his play or training that means he hasn't been a regular in an Irish jersey. What that is, I don't know but for 8 years now, smarter rugby people than me have seen it. His best wasn't enough to get ahead of McGrath for the last RWC or be called up ahead of Boss for the previous one.

And world's best!! Murray?? Hell no. Maybe NH's best a few years ago

Eod100

crossman47 wrote: »

Why this constant preoccupation with a competition we won't win? Forget about the RWC for now and concentrate on the Six Nations.

We won't exactly win this season's 6N either tbf so probably better chance to give other players a chance than other seasons.

ClanofLams

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yet there is something about his play or training that means he hasn't been a regular in an Irish jersey. What that is, I don't know but for 8 years now, smarter rugby people than me have seen it. His best wasn't enough to get ahead of McGrath for the last RWC or be called up ahead of Boss for the previous one.

And world's best!! Murray?? Hell no. Maybe NH's best a few years ago

In the view of a coaching staff who have implemented a conservative game plan focused on limiting mistakes and hoping the opposition makes more mistakes than the Ireland team, a game plan that was hugely successful for a period but looks a long way past it’s sell by date now.

Entirely possible, in fact more likely than not, that a coaching staff with a more ambitious game plan may opt for players with different skill sets. Not necessarily saying Marmion would be one of those now but do think he would have been in last RWC squad if tactics weren’t so narrowly focused.

TRC10

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yet there is something about his play or training that means he hasn't been a regular in an Irish jersey. What that is, I don't know but for 8 years now, smarter rugby people than me have seen it. His best wasn't enough to get ahead of McGrath for the last RWC or be called up ahead of Boss for the previous one.

And world's best!! Murray?? Hell no. Maybe NH's best a few years ago

Yeah I agree. He wasn't favoured. Wrongly so in my opinion. But are you willing to admit that coaches can get things wrong?

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

??
im not clamouring for my provincial player to be starting ahead of his competitors?

im explaining why it may be difficult to see why certain players are selected ahead of others.

Don't think either ClanOfLams or myself even said anything about having Marmion in the current squad so I'm not sure how either of us is clamouring for anything, just arguing certain things said about a player...

And that's fine, obviously we are both biased. But obviously you are biased too and that will affect how you see things.

I think YR originally said he didn't understand the calls for Marmion to be given a chance but literally nobody I've seen in the last few pages was arguing that he hadn't been given a chance or asking for him to be given one, just saying that he has done well when given his chance.

Yeah_Right

Absolutely coaches can get things wrong. Tactics and selections. I think the selection of Murray for the past 2 years has been a mistake. At one point I was calling for him to be dropped to the AIL. I understand the reasoning behind his continued selection, he had the credit in the bank and they were trying to play him back into form.

In the case of Marmion and McGrath, the selectors have had a lot of looks at them over a number of years and decided to go another way. I don't think they've been hard done by.