Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10

crossman47 wrote: »

What is this obsession with the WC? Its every four years and we won't win it.

Why not? We can field a 23 as good as anyone's. Why are people so negative and unambitious?

crossman47

TRC10 wrote: »

Why not? We can field a 23 as good as anyone's. Why are people so negative and unambitious?

We can maybe on a given day with everyone available but we don't have strength in depth for a WC campaign. Anyway my point was thinking of 2023 WC now is nonsense. Deal with the here and now.

sebdavis

crossman47 wrote: »

What is this obsession with the WC? Its every four years and we won't win it. I firmly believe in picking your best team for each match - age not a factor.

At our worst we are in the top 8 rugby countries in the World based on the last 10-20 years. Why couldn't we win it?

sebdavis

crossman47 wrote: »

We can maybe on a given day with everyone available but we don't have strength in depth for a WC campaign. Anyway my point was thinking of 2023 WC now is nonsense. Deal with the here and now.

Not true.
We just need luck which we never have got. Look at the nations what have won the WC and they haven't had big injuries to big players during the tournament.

Take SA in last WC, if 3-4 of their top players got knocked out in the group stage they would struggle to win. Same as any of the top nations.

CMcsporty

yerrahbah wrote: »

I guess is should have said get him some minutes ahead of the England game

Ah sure im only messing!

But it's Murray, Sexton, Earls & Healy that all need to go rather than getting them back in.

Nothing left to play for but €.....& sure CVC have saved they day there......

kilns

sebdavis wrote: »

Not true.
We just need luck which we never have got. Look at the nations what have won the WC and they haven't had big injuries to big players during the tournament.

Take SA in last WC, if 3-4 of their top players got knocked out in the group stage they would struggle to win. Same as any of the top nations.

NZ with Stephen Donald at 10?:)

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Not true.
We just need luck which we never have got. Look at the nations what have won the WC and they haven't had big injuries to big players during the tournament.

Take SA in last WC, if 3-4 of their top players got knocked out in the group stage they would struggle to win. Same as any of the top nations.

NZ 2011? Dan Carter is a pretty big player to be missing. They must've been missing their 3 first choice 10's but still managed to win it? (Still, nothing like our missing list for 2015, mind).

aloooof

I'd be more optimistic than crossman47, but it really seems to me that focusing all your resources towards, essentially, one match in a 4-year cycle, where one decision could go against you on the day, isn't the optimal approach. Equally, selecting your absolute best 23for the here and now doesn't seem like the best approach either.

For all the criticism of Farrell, I think one thing he has gotten right is the introduction of new players. Evolution, not revolution, to use a fairly trite turn of phrase. I think he's got the balancing pretty right.

sebdavis

kilns wrote: »

NZ with Stephen Donald at 10?:)

aloooof wrote: »

NZ 2011? Dan Carter is a pretty big player to be missing. They must've been missing their 3 first choice 10's but still managed to win it? (Still, nothing like our missing list for 2015, mind).

Look at who was around him, that was some f**king team

FB 15 Israel Dagg
RW 14 Cory Jane
OC 13 Conrad Smith
IC 12 Ma'a Nonu Substituted off 76'
LW 11 Richard Kahui
FH 10 Aaron Cruden Substituted off 34'
SH 9 Piri Weepu Substituted off 50'
N8 8 Kieran Read
OF 7 Richie McCaw (c)
BF 6 Jerome Kaino
RL 5 Sam Whitelock Substituted off 49'
LL 4 Brad Thorn
TP 3 Owen Franks
HK 2 Keven Mealamu Substituted off 49'
LP 1 Tony Woodcock
Replacements:
HK 16 Andrew Hore Substituted in 49'
PR 17 Ben Franks
LK 18 Ali Williams Substituted in 49'
FL 19 Adam Thomson
SH 20 Andy Ellis Substituted in 50'
FH 21 Stephen Donald Substituted in 34'
CE 22 Sonny Bill Williams Substituted in

molloyjh

sebdavis wrote: »

You have two options after a World Cup
1. Continue with players even if they are not going to make the next WC
2. Refresh the squad completely and players who clearly will not make the WC move them out

I am in camp 2. Not saying it is right/wrong. Just think we should examine because we have tried option 1 for every WC and got no further

In the case of Earls its not like he is miles ahead of the competition like he was in previous years

Thats incredibly black and white. What any team worth a damn does is constantly transition players in and out in such a way as to ensure they finding a balance between the present and the future. I know its the Internet and all, but we can accept the greys that reality brings.

sebdavis

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats incredibly black and white. What any team worth a damn does is constantly transition players in and out in such a way as to ensure they finding a balance between the present and the future. I know its the Internet and all, but we can accept the greys that reality brings.

What do France do?
How are they getting on recently? (Bar the waffles)

molloyjh

sebdavis wrote: »

What do France do?
How are they getting on recently? (Bar the waffles)

You mean the team with the most top level pro sides in the world with nothing show for it in over a decade? Do you really want to use them as a yardstick? Really?

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

What do France do?
How are they getting on recently? (Bar the waffles)

I've said this plenty of times on here, but France had a decade of underachievement to prompt such a shift.

salmocab

crossman47 wrote: »

Whatever about Dillane, why is Thornberry not getting a look in. Hes been fantastic recently.

The reality is Ireland are well stocked at second row. There’s just no place for him currently.

sebdavis

molloyjh wrote: »

You mean the team with the most top level pro sides in the world with nothing show for it in over a decade? Do you really want to use them as a yardstick? Really?

It's just a different opinion. I'm not asking for you approval/rejection of it.
We have done the same thing every WC cycle. We end up with the same result. After the WC everyone flys off the handle, we should have done this/that etc. Then we go back into the exact same cycle and do the exact same thing more or less.

See you in a few years for the fly off the handle. Im sure if we don't get past a WC everyone will blame Sexton etc.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

I've said this plenty of times on here, but France had a decade of underachievement to prompt such a shift.

Sure their selection policy has been the butt of so many rugby jokes for almost all of the last decade. They should be the best team in the competition. But the only reason they are so clearly ahead this year is because everyone else has been sub-par. It's hardly a ringing endorsement of where they are at. Sure they hardly best a misfiring Ireland shorn of most of our important players!

molloyjh

sebdavis wrote: »

It's just a different opinion. I'm not asking for you approval/rejection of it.
We have done the same thing every WC cycle. We end up with the same result. After the WC everyone flys off the handle, we should have done this/that etc. Then we go back into the exact same cycle and do the exact same thing more or less.

See you in a few years for the fly off the handle. Im sure if we don't get past a WC everyone will blame Sexton etc.

Is throwing out the baby with the bathwater not flying off the handle compared to the balanced approach?

Dubinusa

I think change has to be incremental. I wouldn't throw everyone out every few years or so. I believe Farrell has done relatively well, so far.
Some of the new caps will be around for quite a while. Some others maybe on the fringes.
As far as 2nd row goes, we are well stocked. Henderson and Ryan could be out injured and the fall off is not too damning. With Beirne: Baird , Dillane, Roux and Thornbury all playing exceptionally well. There's other lads that I think could step up too.
I think it's worth remembering that Addison has been injured. I think he will bounce back into consideration when he gets a run of matches. Shane Daly is a lad that I think will be on the fringes. I think he's worth a look in the center. Other lads will be looking to break into the squad soon enough.
I think if the summer tour goes ahead we will see about 6 new caps. Coombes for one. He's fairly close imo. Boyle is another. People will probably scoff but, Josh Murphy is a lad I think is worth a look. In the backs there's Balacoune and Daly and possibly Lyttle. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Marty Moore get called up and maybe Kevin O'Byrne.
Change is good and if done the right way with gameplans that are adaptable, I think we'll be in a good place.

schmoo2k

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think change has to be incremental. I wouldn't throw everyone out every few years or so. I believe Farrell has done relatively well, so far.....

Yup and pretty much all management teams have said as much, IMO I think our failure is the way we don't treat the squad as a team.

What we don't seem to do is rotate the squad regularly - and I mean mid campaign and not over 12 months. Its why we fail at WRCs as you need to "just win by 1 point" while using your entire squad. Someone who is fresh, will be better than someone who is nursing an injury, especially if they are used to being rotated in and out as needed...

Every WRC I predict if we haven't started every player in our squad by the end of our pool games, then we won't get beyond the semis - and the key thing is not doing it for 1 match, its for all of the games...

CMcsporty

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think change has to be incremental. I wouldn't throw everyone out every few years or so. I believe Farrell has done relatively well, so far.
Some of the new caps will be around for quite a while. Some others maybe on the fringes.
As far as 2nd row goes, we are well stocked. Henderson and Ryan could be out injured and the fall off is not too damning. With Beirne: Baird , Dillane, Roux and Thornbury all playing exceptionally well. There's other lads that I think could step up too.
I think it's worth remembering that Addison has been injured. I think he will bounce back into consideration when he gets a run of matches. Shane Daly is a lad that I think will be on the fringes. I think he's worth a look in the center. Other lads will be looking to break into the squad soon enough.
I think if the summer tour goes ahead we will see about 6 new caps. Coombes for one. He's fairly close imo. Boyle is another. People will probably scoff but, Josh Murphy is a lad I think is worth a look. In the backs there's Balacoune and Daly and possibly Lyttle. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Marty Moore get called up and maybe Kevin O'Byrne.
Change is good and if done the right way with gameplans that are adaptable, I think we'll be in a good place.

Personally think Farrell had a difficult situation to transition away from the mainstays.
But has persisted a year too long with Murray, Sexton, Healy and Earls.
Bench players at most.

Just on the Hookers.
Kevin O'Byrne should be in the squad. Gives us a ball playing option unlike anything in the country.
Sheehan has great potential. Again offers something completely different.
Kelleher should be the starting hooker.
Could be an impressive trio in a few years.

CMcsporty

sebdavis wrote: »

It's just a different opinion. I'm not asking for you approval/rejection of it.
We have done the same thing every WC cycle. We end up with the same result. After the WC everyone flys off the handle, we should have done this/that etc. Then we go back into the exact same cycle and do the exact same thing more or less.

See you in a few years for the fly off the handle. Im sure if we don't get past a WC everyone will blame Sexton etc.

I hate to say it. But we are already done for at the next WC.
Doesnt mean we still shouldn't build the squad.

Massive game for Farrell v Scot.
Picked all the veterans.
No excuses now.

aloooof

CMcsporty wrote: »

I hate to say it. But we are already done for at the next WC.
Doesnt mean we still shouldn't build the squad.

Massive game for Farrell v Scot.
Picked all the veterans.
No excuses now.

There are 4 guys in the starting 15 who Farrell has given their debuts to in the last year and a bit. There's another 3 on the bench.

You might disagree with some of his selections, but that doesn't mean he's picked all the veterans or hasn't built the squad. He's capped 13 new players in total.

The Inbetween is mine

What way are the bookies calling this? .. personally I think it's a toss of a coin between the teams

CMcsporty

What veterans has he replaced?
Sexton - No
Murray - No
Healy - No
Earls - No

Did he pick all of those players for the Autumn - Yes

See my point earlier. He's gone a year too far with these as the starters.

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

I hate to say it. But we are already done for at the next WC.
Doesnt mean we still shouldn't build the squad.

Massive game for Farrell v Scot.
Picked all the veterans.
No excuses now.

what a one-eyed biased viewpoint :rolleyes:

he absolutely has not picked all the veterans

schmoo2k

CMcsporty wrote: »

What veterans has he replaced?
Sexton - No
Murray - No
Healy - No
Earls - No

Did he pick all of those players for the Autumn - Yes

See my point earlier. He's gone a year too far with these as the starters.

Is Murray starting? I missed that...

CMcsporty

sydthebeat wrote: »

what a one-eyed biased viewpoint :rolleyes:

he absolutely has not picked all the veterans

It's no biased at all.
What veterans did he not pick?

Tommybojangles

CMcsporty wrote: »

I hate to say it. But we are already done for at the next WC.

...

El_Duderino 09

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think change has to be incremental. I wouldn't throw everyone out every few years or so. I believe Farrell has done relatively well, so far.
Some of the new caps will be around for quite a while. Some others maybe on the fringes.
As far as 2nd row goes, we are well stocked. Henderson and Ryan could be out injured and the fall off is not too damning. With Beirne: Baird , Dillane, Roux and Thornbury all playing exceptionally well. There's other lads that I think could step up too.
I think it's worth remembering that Addison has been injured. I think he will bounce back into consideration when he gets a run of matches. Shane Daly is a lad that I think will be on the fringes. I think he's worth a look in the center. Other lads will be looking to break into the squad soon enough.
I think if the summer tour goes ahead we will see about 6 new caps. Coombes for one. He's fairly close imo. Boyle is another. People will probably scoff but, Josh Murphy is a lad I think is worth a look. In the backs there's Balacoune and Daly and possibly Lyttle. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Marty Moore get called up and maybe Kevin O'Byrne.
Change is good and if done the right way with gameplans that are adaptable, I think we'll be in a good place.

I'd agree with that. I know it's not fashionable to say Farrell is doing ok, but I think he's doing ok. Ad change has to be incremental. Italy has done a big change (with an eye to the future) and their performances are amplifying the calls to have them dropped from the 6n.

Ireland has some good players, but very few are world class compared to a few years ago. If you want to be 3rd in the world, then all your players will need to be within the top 5/6 in their positions in the world and we have few of those players at the moment. A few years ago we had probably the best half backs individually and as a pairing, in the world. We also had Healy as a top loose head, but now he's got very little to offer around the pitch, but nobody to really take the jersey from him.

The problem is that the replacements aren't at the level to really take the jersey and make a difference. I think there is very little difference between most of the loose forward combinations. Doris might be a small step above the rest, and Beirne is on great form. But we don't have many replacements who are likely to challenge for the title as best in the world in their position. There is some argument for a horses for courses approach with a light, nippy 7 like Connors vs a better ball carrier like POM, but neither makes a massive difference. It makes very little difference whether we have Dillane, Roux and Thornbury, they're all good, but none are going to make a big difference.

Farrell is doing ok, not spectacular but not as bad as we're making out either. I am excited by some of the prospects like Casey, H Byrne, B Healy, Carberry, Baird, but they aren't ready to be simply parachuted into the team. I hope Farrell is ready to give them more game time and it more or less looks like that's what he's doing.

aloooof

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

What way are the bookies calling this? .. personally I think it's a toss of a coin between the teams

Bookies have us 2 point favourites. I think I'd have it a shade more than that in our favour. Difficult to know how the extra break will affect Scotland, or how the loss to Wales will impact their otherwise excellent form.

Personally, I think our midfield is a decent bit better than theirs and I'm hoping that'll be a factor. Cos if it is, it'll mean we'll have played some good rugby.