Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ScissorPaperRock

sebdavis wrote: »

You can drop a player. No need to throw him under the bus to the media. I never seen a comment like that from any coach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw_SsIlKyDw

The quote comes from this post-match interview.

He was directly asked about Lowe and the missed tackle. Doesn't come across as throwing him under the bus.

10 mins in.

thomond2006

That's one of those quotes that looks a lot worse in text than it actually sounds when you listen to it.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

I can't wait to see what happens when we've a good attack if scoring 27 points away from home in the 6N is the result of a poor attack.

Attack isn't just about back line moves and line breaks. That's the aesthetically pleasing, fun element. Attack is about getting points. Controlling where the game is played and translating that to the score board. We did a solid job of that today. It was largely done through territorial kicking. Scotland were totally unable to deal with our kicking from hand and chase.

Of course we could maximise our opportunities more effectively but, in holistic terms, our attack delivered today.

The coaches will be far more concerned with the lack of accuracy around our set piece in the second half as well as our passive and poor defence in the final quarter.

What happens with a team that can handle our kicking game though? We didn't really show anything else in attack. And if we are coming up against an Emgland getting very much back on track next week then where are we at? Can we get front foot in the tight exchanges the way we did today? Probably not. Can we pressure their back 3 with our kicking game? Possibly, but less likely than today. We're going to need more. And today was a big concern for me there. Ball in hand we looked worse than round 1 IMO. And that worries me.

Scotland are not a good side. They've been bigged up way beyond where they were because they beat England in Round 1. But England were hopeless that day. Scotland actually tried to cough up that game, but England weren't able to take advantage. People were talking about how Scotland turned a corner. They hadn't. They went up against a poor Welsh side and arguably lost that even before the red card. They couldn't hold on to the lead at all. They are a poor team now the way they were last year and the year before. I dont think much has changed at all for them tbh. England next week look to be a different prospect. And I don't see us winning it.

I wonder if we are capable of the "heads up rugby" that the coaches want us to play. Maybe we are and its just going to take time to get there. But I can't help but feel that we have guys that would thrive in a more structured approach. I haven't seen many strike plays for example. We are going wide with very few guys running inside lines or convincing dummy runs etc. This is making it far too easy for defences as we don't seem to be asking enough questions of them.

shootermacg

molloyjh wrote: »

I wonder if we are capable of the "heads up rugby" that the coaches want us to play. Maybe we are and its just going to take time to get there. But I can't help but feel that we have guys that would thrive in a more structured approach. I haven't seen many strike plays for example. We are going wide with very few guys running inside lines or convincing dummy runs etc. This is making it far too easy for defences as we don't seem to be asking enough questions of them.

I've been thinking this for a while, we have players that need to be spoon fed plays and I don't even blame Joe for that. You can see Cat's patterns, which to be fair are the same as the other teams in the 6N.

In a few cases today, you had carriers who were given three choices, behind, outside and inside. They mostly just carried into contact or else passed too deep not drawing in defenders.

If you look at France, they played almost the same patterns against England, but each time the carrier drew the man before making the right choice.

ersatz

molloyjh wrote: »

I wonder if we are capable of the "heads up rugby" that the coaches want us to play. Maybe we are and its just going to take time to get there. But I can't help but feel that we have guys that would thrive in a more structured approach. I haven't seen many strike plays for example. We are going wide with very few guys running inside lines or convincing dummy runs etc. This is making it far too easy for defences as we don't seem to be asking enough questions of them.

Whenever our ball goes through the hands it looks easy to defend, a good example was where Lowe was bundled into touch today, I could see it coming and so could Scotland. Buer's point about attack being based on possession and territory as much as flashy backline stuff is fair, but without any incision against good teams possession and territory don't necessarily deliver points. Scotland gave us kickable penalties and lots of cheap ball off their lineout today, England won't be so generous. And if Burns had been on for that last penalty it might have been a different outcome, coulda shoulda I know, but I don't expect JS to finish games these days.

Louis Friend

Lots of positives today...

- The lineout
- Tadgh Furlong
- The 4/5/6 axis
- Will Connors
- Henshaw (again)
- Keenan who was superb under the high ball
- Earls

And most of all, the elder Statesman, Johnny Sexton, who was superb.

ClanofLams

Buer wrote: »

I can't wait to see what happens when we've a good attack if scoring 27 points away from home in the 6N is the result of a poor attack.

Attack isn't just about back line moves and line breaks. That's the aesthetically pleasing, fun element. Attack is about getting points. Controlling where the game is played and translating that to the score board. We did a solid job of that today. It was largely done through territorial kicking. Scotland were totally unable to deal with our kicking from hand and chase.

Of course we could maximise our opportunities more effectively but, in holistic terms, our attack delivered today.

The coaches will be far more concerned with the lack of accuracy around our set piece in the second half as well as our passive and poor defence in the final quarter.

It was done through a limited game plan that hasn’t troubled any top tier team in years and won’t trouble any top tier teams in the future.

Scotland don’t have a pack capable of going against Ireland as recent history prove and we scraped past them.

England will win by ten plus next week.

TRC10

We won away from home against the best Scotland team of the 6 Nations era, and people still complain...

ClanofLams

TRC10 wrote: »

We won away from home against the best Scotland team of the 6 Nations era, and people still complain...

They will highly likely finish the championship with two wins, they have done the same in plenty other six nations and have bettered that also at least once.

They’re the same team they have been for the last number of years when Ireland have routinely beat them, capable of some brilliance in attack and equally as likely to do something ridiculous (mainly Russell). Ultimately they don’t have a pack to compete on a regular basis. Or maybe it’s fairer to say they have no depth in their forwards but either way until they resolve that (which seems very difficult) they will not win on a regular basis against top tier competition.

Ireland won by three, have won far more comfortably in recent years. Anyone who thinks today reflect some sort of progress should consider again.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

What happens with a team that can handle our kicking game though? We didn't really show anything else in attack. And if we are coming up against an Emgland getting very much back on track next week then where are we at? Can we get front foot in the tight exchanges the way we did today? Probably not. Can we pressure their back 3 with our kicking game? Possibly, but less likely than today. We're going to need more. And today was a big concern for me there. Ball in hand we looked worse than round 1 IMO. And that worries me.

Scotland are not a good side. They've been bigged up way beyond where they were because they beat England in Round 1. But England were hopeless that day. Scotland actually tried to cough up that game, but England weren't able to take advantage. People were talking about how Scotland turned a corner. They hadn't. They went up against a poor Welsh side and arguably lost that even before the red card. They couldn't hold on to the lead at all. They are a poor team now the way they were last year and the year before. I dont think much has changed at all for them tbh. England next week look to be a different prospect. And I don't see us winning it.

I wonder if we are capable of the "heads up rugby" that the coaches want us to play. Maybe we are and its just going to take time to get there. But I can't help but feel that we have guys that would thrive in a more structured approach. I haven't seen many strike plays for example. We are going wide with very few guys running inside lines or convincing dummy runs etc. This is making it far too easy for defences as we don't seem to be asking enough questions of them.

Scotland couldn’t handle us up front or handle our kicking game. So why would we go to anything else?

A very odd thing to single out imo

We’re getting points on the board. That’s a good thing. The idea we’d intentionally go away from an area that is producing points just to, I don’t know look good? That’s fantasy stuff in a 6 nations game.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Scotland couldn’t handle us up front or handle our kicking game. So why would we go to anything else?

A very odd thing to single out imo.

But we did try other things. We went out the back a few times and were unbelievably lateral. Off 1 scrum, as mentioned above, we just shovelled the ball across the pitch for Lowe to be bundled into touch. Our forwards and our kicking weren't the only things we tried. They were the only things that worked. Theres a big difference there.

I'd be okay with us resorting to tactics that work if I knew we had other things in our locker we could employ against other teams. At the moment we don't. Our attack has been poor, be that through design or execution, all tournament. And I felt we looked worse on that front yesterday than we have since the start of 2020. The forwards worked hard and gave us a good platform but did we really use that at all?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not on board with the "death to the box kick and sack Farrell" brigade. But I'm just wondering do we need to tweak our approach a bit in attack to maybe support the players more than heap pressure on them right now. Because from what I've seen this tournament we have an attacking structure that broadly speaking can work, but players that have struggled to implement it successfully. Maybe some more structure is needed to generate some more confidence and certainty on the pitch, for example some quality set play options off set peice to prevent things like the above happening. Because shipping the ball put to the wing for your winger to have nowhere to go but touch is pretty awful first phase stuff.

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

They will highly likely finish the championship with two wins, they have done the same in plenty other six nations and have bettered that also at least once.

They’re the same team they have been for the last number of years when Ireland have routinely beat them, capable of some brilliance in attack and equally as likely to do something ridiculous (mainly Russell). Ultimately they don’t have a pack to compete on a regular basis. Or maybe it’s fairer to say they have no depth in their forwards but either way until they resolve that (which seems very difficult) they will not win on a regular basis against top tier competition.

Ireland won by three, have won far more comfortably in recent years. Anyone who thinks today reflect some sort of progress should consider again.

Well it has to be said the Lineout is performing exceptionally well.
Big improvement compared to the last 6N and the 2019 6N/RWC.
Ireland are consistently wining their ball and stealing allot of ball.
9 Lineout steals is impressive. Ryan & Beirne take a bow.
https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

Ruck speed has also improved.
The scrum looks good and Porter came on really well last 6N.
LH is still an issue but all in all there has been allot of progress in the forwards.

Beirne, Connors have been good additions to the pack.
Fingers crossed for Dorris. He is a game changer and is the type of ball playing forward this team needs.
Because outside of the forwards we are inept in attack and defense.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

But we did try other things. We went out the back a few times and were unbelievably lateral. Off 1 scrum, as mentioned above, we just shovelled the ball across the pitch for Lowe to be bundled into touch.

Yes. So that didn't work. That was the second time we went to Lowe.

Conveniently ignoring, however, that the first time we went to him his half break and offload back inside to Sexton ultimately led to our first points and had us playing deep in the Scottish 22 with penalty advantage. After that I don't think we went back that way at all, but it was very clear it wasn't needed.

Again, we scored 27 points and had opportunities to score more. We didn't look incredibly incisive but we were in control for most of that game so we didn't need any more than that. You can't blame them for adjusting to focus on taking advantage of the weaknesses of the opposition on the day.

It's the fact we conceded 24 despite that control that is a much bigger immediate concern, a majority of those points coming off two tries from nothing created by our own errors.

kilns

It is becoming more and more obvious that we have an issue in the back line and that there seems to be no real lack of direction and that comes down to the coaching, the opposite can be said for our forwards who without them we would be a very average team.

Yes, probably we lack the quality of players that other six nations have, look at France and Englands wingers, even Wales and compare them to ours. Lowe is not even a defensive disaster to happen he is already is and despite his terrific graft Earls does not worry teams in attacking sense. Ringrose, despite being very talented looks a very lost soul in the last few games and we certainly are not getting the most out of him. Henshaw has been terrific and could well be the Lions 12 on this form. Sexton even though he is still out best 10 has regressed a lot in my opinion and the fact he is still is our best 10 says alot about whats behind. At scrumhalf, JGP brings much needed speed to the game but if we cant utilize the quick ball we get, whats the point, we might as go back to the very slow ball Murray produces

Hopefully over the next few months Farrell recognises this and if he has the courage to fire his friend and bring in a real capable back coach who will give our "limited" back line some direction we could really go places

Niallof9

All the talk of "developing" our gameplan has been quietly forgotten. A rubbish display if we are being truly honest with ourselves. Our pack was excellent. But we must be one of the worst teams to watch as a neutral. It's thoroughly depressing stuff.

Either Catt or Farrell has to go.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

What happens with a team that can handle our kicking game though? We didn't really show anything else in attack. And if we are coming up against an Emgland getting very much back on track next week then where are we at? Can we get front foot in the tight exchanges the way we did today? Probably not. Can we pressure their back 3 with our kicking game? Possibly, but less likely than today. We're going to need more. And today was a big concern for me there. Ball in hand we looked worse than round 1 IMO. And that worries me.

It's a fair question. Our kicking game is very strong but England will cope better with it than Scotland did. We do need to have more variety in our kicking options and incision in our attack.

We know what's coming from England. They beat us every time with power and line speed and we're going to have to be prepared to counter that in some manner. It's up to the coaching team to address that and have their homework done.

My comments were specifically about the game yesterday, however. People are jumping up and down about our attack despite us continually turning possession into points which is the whole aim. We can talk about other opponents and situations sure, but I think the continued complaining about our attack being poor yesterday is really misguided.

For context, we scored more points yesterday than Wales did despite them being a man up for almost 30 minutes. Many have this immovable belief that a good attack means you have to be throwing the ball around, making clean breaks, beating defenders and scoring in the backs.

irishbucsfan

Eddie Jones is extremely pragmatic and not at all afraid of negative tactics so I’d worry about JGP’s health next week. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Maro Itoje on top of him after a few attempted charge down of box kicks.

They’ll also surely be spending a fair bit of time on their attacking line out. A credit to POC that opposition would need to even worry about our defensive line out given how poor it had been previously.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

We won away from home against the best Scotland team of the 6 Nations era, and people still complain...

YOu say this as fact?Many people are complaining due to the limited and frustrating gameplan which has neither the good parts of Joe's era nor the change many wanted to see. The backline play is utter utter muck, and we are papering over cracks with lucky tries. Others, including the management and team have quickly forgotten all the bluster of last year when it was all about new beginnings and change etc. Personally i'm bloody sick of it, a thumping by England will be the medicine this whole setup needs to drag it into reality. All you have to do is look at a lions side based on yesterday. Furlong is the only outstanding candidate for the 15. Stander, Henshaw, Ryan probably in the squad.Henderson, Beirne a maybe,Sexton shows he could be in the squad. Ringrose, like others is being ruined by an inept coaching team but is probably in. Murray maybe based on the past. And that's probably it. We have the core of an excellent World Class side. But they need World Class coaching, and Andy Farrell, a first time head coach, isn't it.

Anybody happy with yesterday needs their head examined. It was rubbish. And the narrative that this is a good win, because this is the best Scottish side of the 6 Nations is just farcical.

Wildly Boaring

Anyone else wondering about Simon Easterby?

We had a terrible line out last year. POC comes in (and with the same players more or less) we are flying.
Scrum was good last year and seems pretty good still.

Under Joe with Farrell as defence coach we had a reasonable defence.

Our defence appears to my untrained eye to be getting worse.
France, Wales, Scotland and even Italy looked lethal once they got the ball in our half.
Yesterday our defence looked awful soft.
Conceded massive ground in the second half.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

It's a fair question. Our kicking game is very strong but England will cope better with it than Scotland did. We do need to have more variety in our kicking options and incision in our attack.

We know what's coming from England. They beat us every time with power and line speed and we're going to have to be prepared to counter that in some manner. It's up to the coaching team to address that and have their homework done.

My comments were specifically about the game yesterday, however. People are jumping up and down about our attack despite us continually turning possession into points which is the whole aim. We can talk about other opponents and situations sure, but I think the continued complaining about our attack being poor yesterday is really misguided.

For context, we scored more points yesterday than Wales did despite them being a man up for almost 30 minutes. Many have this immovable belief that a good attack means you have to be throwing the ball around, making clean breaks, beating defenders and scoring in the backs.

Yeah that's all fair enough, but I think there's a danger in looking at the game in isolation too. Outside of the opening 8-10 mins I just felt our back line as a whole looked bereft of confidence and while that didn't really matter in this game, because like all other games against Scotland in the recent past we've been able to bully them up front, I am concerned about our direction overall. I've defended the attacking approach previously but I saw flashes yesterday of what individuals in the team are capable of with no sign of that being stitched together into something cohesive and effective.

Like Italy, we have to take yesterday's opposition into account. Scotland have flattered to deceive consistently now for years, but they are no better now than they were 2 years ago. We pitched up to a RWC in poor form and bullied them off the park despite our poor form. We did the same yesterday for 60 mins. But like 2019, that didn't mean we were in a good place then and I don't think it means we are now. We beat a team that are worse than us. A team we should be beating 9 times out of 10. And in the end we made harder work of it than we needed to (albeit not really because of our attacking game).

Also IBF, I would share the concerns about the last quarter too. Our defence was horribly passive and for the second Scotland try, while Lowe made a huge error, our line was in bits anyway. Off the previous ruck we had 4 defenders on the short side despite the fact that Scotland had moved everyone over to the openside. There seemed to be a malaise of some sort that nearly cost us the game. Scotland were making yards for fun as we waited for them to come to us rather than getting off the line and putting pressure on them.

Former Former Former

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Anyone else wondering about Simon Easterby?

We had a terrible line out last year. POC comes in (and with the same players more or less) we are flying.
Scrum was good last year and seems pretty good still.

Under Joe with Farrell as defence coach we had a reasonable defence.

Our defence appears to my untrained eye to be getting worse.
France, Wales, Scotland and even Italy looked lethal once they got the ball in our half.
Yesterday our defence looked awful soft.
Conceded massive ground in the second half.

Did Scotland look lethal? Things got VERY ragged in the last 20 but prior to that, I'm struggling to remember any real threat from them. Their first try was an absolute fluke.

As for Easterby, I don't know, but I always think it's the coach's job to get the players into the right position, then it's up to the player to execute. For the second try, Lowe was more or less where he needed to be, he just couldn't do his part.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eddie Jones is extremely pragmatic and not at all afraid of negative tactics so I’d worry about JGP’s health next week. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Maro Itoje on top of him after a few attempted charge down of box kicks.

It happened in the first half yesterday; JGP definitely took contact after one or two box kicks when fully exposed. It was slightly reminiscent of the Glasgow/Conor Murray scenario a couple of years ago.

Dubinusa

As it is, we appear lost in broken play. It's like heads up rugby is alien to us. I think Catt is probably the reason. The likes of Ringrose, Lowe etc are capable of top notch passing etc, what happened?
Next week should give us an indication as to are we going in the right track! I think not. Imo, Catt must go.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah that's all fair enough, but I think there's a danger in looking at the game in isolation too. Outside of the opening 8-10 mins I just felt our back line as a whole looked bereft of confidence and while that didn't really matter in this game, because like all other games against Scotland in the recent past we've been able to bully them up front, I am concerned about our direction overall. I've defended the attacking approach previously but I saw flashes yesterday of what individuals in the team are capable of with no sign of that being stitched together into something cohesive and effective.

Like Italy, we have to take yesterday's opposition into account. Scotland have flattered to deceive consistently now for years, but they are no better now than they were 2 years ago. We pitched up to a RWC in poor form and bullied them off the park despite our poor form. We did the same yesterday for 60 mins. But like 2019, that didn't mean we were in a good place then and I don't think it means we are now. We beat a team that are worse than us. A team we should be beating 9 times out of 10. And in the end we made harder work of it than we needed to (albeit not really because of our attacking game).

Also IBF, I would share the concerns about the last quarter too. Our defence was horribly passive and for the second Scotland try, while Lowe made a huge error, our line was in bits anyway. Off the previous ruck we had 4 defenders on the short side despite the fact that Scotland had moved everyone over to the openside. There seemed to be a malaise of some sort that nearly cost us the game. Scotland were making yards for fun as we waited for them to come to us rather than getting off the line and putting pressure on them.

We were playing Scotland though.

Surely you knew that before, during and after the game! You can’t complain that we focused on a game plan that we know can beat Scotland unless we were playing someone else and there was some hilarious confusion.


Also Scotland absolutely are a better team this year. Their defence and back row combined with a couple of dangerous backs does make them dangerous. We played around those threats.


Do I think we’d beat England playing like that? Probably not.

CMcsporty

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eddie Jones is extremely pragmatic and not at all afraid of negative tactics so I’d worry about JGP’s health next week. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Maro Itoje on top of him after a few attempted charge down of box kicks.

They’ll also surely be spending a fair bit of time on their attacking line out. A credit to POC that opposition would need to even worry about our defensive line out given how poor it had been previously.

Poite played a stormer yesterday. Took matters into his own hands to give some protection to Park.
https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1371387696757796868?s=20
From the very 1st box kick yesterday Scotland were diving at his knees.

Itoje will be all over him like a rash.

OldRio

After that performance yesterday I fear what England could do against us.
We seem to have most, but not all, of the parts to make the watch tick. Yet the watch maker hasn't assembled the pieces in the correct order. Frustrating.

Buer

OldRio wrote: »

We seem to have most, but not all, of the parts to make the watch tick. Yet the watch maker hasn't assembled the pieces in the correct order. Frustrating.

The horrorology of it all.

CMcsporty

OldRio wrote: »

After that performance yesterday I fear what England could do against us.
We seem to have most, but not all, of the parts to make the watch tick. Yet the watch maker hasn't assembled the pieces in the correct order. Frustrating.

Next weeks selection and tactics will be interesting. There wont be many changes and its a 6 day turnaround. Brain dead tactics v England last year.

Lowe getting allot of stick but Keenan's attempt to tackle was also fairly feeble.
I presume Lowe will be replaced for a redoubtable defender!

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

Poite played a stormer yesterday. Took matters into his own hands to give some protection to Park.
https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1371387696757796868?s=20
From the very 1st box kick yesterday Scotland were diving at his knees.

Itoje will be all over him like a rash.

pointes positioning was sh!te all day

apart from the Beirne try of course... thats was epic

theVersatile

Niallof9 wrote: »

YOu say this as fact?Many people are complaining due to the limited and frustrating gameplan which has neither the good parts of Joe's era nor the change many wanted to see. The backline play is utter utter muck, and we are papering over cracks with lucky tries. Others, including the management and team have quickly forgotten all the bluster of last year when it was all about new beginnings and change etc. Personally i'm bloody sick of it, a thumping by England will be the medicine this whole setup needs to drag it into reality. All you have to do is look at a lions side based on yesterday. Furlong is the only outstanding candidate for the 15. Stander, Henshaw, Ryan probably in the squad.Henderson, Beirne a maybe,Sexton shows he could be in the squad. Ringrose, like others is being ruined by an inept coaching team but is probably in. Murray maybe based on the past. And that's probably it. We have the core of an excellent World Class side. But they need World Class coaching, and Andy Farrell, a first time head coach, isn't it.

Anybody happy with yesterday needs their head examined. It was rubbish. And the narrative that this is a good win, because this is the best Scottish side of the 6 Nations is just farcical.

Good to have you back Niallo. I presume you bet your laptop or your Internet modem on Italy beating Ireland last weekend and that's why you've been missing for the last two weeks? :pac: