Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

thomond2006

Niallof9 wrote: »

YOu say this as fact?Many people are complaining due to the limited and frustrating gameplan which has neither the good parts of Joe's era nor the change many wanted to see. The backline play is utter utter muck, and we are papering over cracks with lucky tries. Others, including the management and team have quickly forgotten all the bluster of last year when it was all about new beginnings and change etc. Personally i'm bloody sick of it, a thumping by England will be the medicine this whole setup needs to drag it into reality. All you have to do is look at a lions side based on yesterday. Furlong is the only outstanding candidate for the 15. Stander, Henshaw, Ryan probably in the squad.Henderson, Beirne a maybe,Sexton shows he could be in the squad. Ringrose, like others is being ruined by an inept coaching team but is probably in. Murray maybe based on the past. And that's probably it. We have the core of an excellent World Class side. But they need World Class coaching, and Andy Farrell, a first time head coach, isn't it.

Anybody happy with yesterday needs their head examined. It was rubbish. And the narrative that this is a good win, because this is the best Scottish side of the 6 Nations is just farcical.

You don't seem to enjoy watching Ireland (win).
Perhaps try a different hobby which doesn't elicit such rage.

Interested Observer

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Anyone else wondering about Simon Easterby?

We had a terrible line out last year. POC comes in (and with the same players more or less) we are flying.
Scrum was good last year and seems pretty good still.

Under Joe with Farrell as defence coach we had a reasonable defence.

Our defence appears to my untrained eye to be getting worse.
France, Wales, Scotland and even Italy looked lethal once they got the ball in our half.
Yesterday our defence looked awful soft.
Conceded massive ground in the second half.

I don't really agree with this. We conceded a the jammiest try of all time, originating with Ireland individual errors, and we conceded a another try to a horrendous missed tackle, another individual error. Obviously we need to cut out the errors, and I'll be surprised if Lowe isn't dropped, but if Earls or Ringrose boots the ball away and Lowe makes that tackle, we're 20 point winners. I think the point is they were individual and not systemic errors.

Henry Ford III

I assume James Lowe's defensive shortcomings have been comprehensively mulled over at this stage?

sydthebeat

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I assume James Lowe's defensive shortcomings have been comprehensively mulled over at this stage?

yes. the general consensus is that he should be dropped until he can show he has fixed his issues.

sebdavis

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes. the general consensus is that he should be dropped until he can show he has fixed his issues.

Lowe has always had suspect defence. As ROG said that is because he is a NZ player and they think more about attack.
It is fairly pointless if we are going to pick attack minded players and then complain when they are not as good defenders. Why bother? we should just drop all attacking players out of the team and just pick everyone based on how well they can defend.

Everyone will be happy. Bored but happy.

Teddy Thomas for France, awful defender. Brilliant in attack. France still play him all the time.

Henry Ford III

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes. the general consensus is that he should be dropped until he can show he has fixed his issues.

General consensus never picked any team.

I'm not sure his issues are fixable. Attitude looks all wrong to me at least.

errlloyd

sebdavis wrote: »

Teddy Thomas for France, awful defender. Brilliant in attack. France still play him all the time.

I mean this is a fairly terrible example. He's been in and out of the French and Racing team like crazy because of his D.

sebdavis

I think they should drop Lowe, really because his confidence is shot. Get him back to Leinster so he can build himself back up.

But lets have a look,
Larmour: can't play him he is suspect under high ball
Stockdale: can't play him he can't defend
Lowe: can't play him he can't defend

Seems to be a common pattern here, Irish most exciting and attacked minded players the coaching team cannot bring them into the team and highlight their positive and negate the issues they have. Stockdale couldn't defend under Schmidt yet all we seen him do was score bucket loads of try's.

Bazzo

"Don't be scared Johnny" will surely go down as one of the funniest rugby moments in history. Poite can't help himself, he's a walking meme machine.

Buer

sebdavis wrote: »

Teddy Thomas for France, awful defender. Brilliant in attack. France still play him all the time.

They don't. He's only in the team at the moment because of injury and didn't start against us when they had Penaud and Villiere both fit. He has been dropped consistently by France throughout his test career.

OldRio

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't really agree with this. We conceded a the jammiest try of all time, originating with Ireland individual errors, and we conceded a another try to a horrendous missed tackle, another individual error. Obviously we need to cut out the errors, and I'll be surprised if Lowe isn't dropped, but if Earls or Ringrose boots the ball away and Lowe makes that tackle, we're 20 point winners. I think the point is they were individual and not systemic errors.

That second try had about 5 or 6 missed tackles. Yes Lowes error was bad but look at the start of the move.
Although I do agree that our defence set up is good.

bennyl10

sebdavis wrote: »

Lowe has always had suspect defence. As ROG said that is because he is a NZ player and they think more about attack.
It is fairly pointless if we are going to pick attack minded players and then complain when they are not as good defenders. Why bother? we should just drop all attacking players out of the team and just pick everyone based on how well they can defend.

Everyone will be happy. Bored but happy.

Teddy Thomas for France, awful defender. Brilliant in attack. France still play him all the time.

TT has been dropped time and time again for his lack of defence.

He’s also shown to be lethal at test level if he gets a sniff. Lowe hasn’t done that either

sydthebeat

Henry Ford III wrote: »

General consensus never picked any team.

I'm not sure his issues are fixable. Attitude looks all wrong to me at least.

sorry i didnt realise we here on boards were picking the team... happy days.. get yer boots ready Harry

Brewster

sebdavis wrote: »

I think they should drop Lowe, really because his confidence is shot. Get him back to Leinster so he can build himself back up.

But lets have a look,
Larmour: can't play him he is suspect under high ball
Stockdale: can't play him he can't defend
Lowe: can't play him he can't defend

Seems to be a common pattern here, Irish most exciting and attacked minded players the coaching team cannot bring them into the team and highlight their positive and negate the issues they have. Stockdale couldn't defend under Schmidt yet all we seen him do was score bucket loads of try's.

Stockdale’s issues for Ireland were more at FB than wing. He got through many games for Ireland on the wing and looked very comfortable. I would be trying him again, without question. He is completely different type of winger to Lowe.

thomond2006

Bazzo wrote: »

"Don't be scared Johnny" will surely go down as one of the funniest rugby moments in history. Poite can't help himself, he's a walking meme machine.

Between this and being told to be quiet by Andrew Brace, Sexton is losing a few one-on-one matchups with referees this season.

Niallof9

thomond2006 wrote: »

You don't seem to enjoy watching Ireland (win).
Perhaps try a different hobby which doesn't elicit such rage.

No i don't enjoy watching Ireland play that way at all. Its possibly the worst its been in some time. Quite possibly one of the worst styles of rugby, and way of playing in the World. Throw in some terrible calls in selection and yeah i'm done with farrell. Zero apologies for it. As i said, it won't work and AF won't be the coach of Ireland come the World Cup.

There wasn't anything enjoyable about yesterday. If we're at the stage of a wins a win, then we might as well pack it in. Its being a ****e six nations, and AF will still be under pressure if we don't perform against England.

And no i'm not enraged at all. I've made peace with it a long time ago. The high point being the loss to Japan. It seems many on here are still living in some sort of dream World where the performances are acceptable.

But shure a wins a win....who care's if we commit crimes against rugby doing it. I suppose all that talk last year and in November about improving how we play was just for larfs.

The lauding of solidness highlighted by Keenan ( very solid customer) rather than the attacking abilities of Larmour or Stockdale sums up Irish rugby for me. I mean yeah its a game of small margins, but we'll never do anything with that built in fear. Probably will be the next generation, that finally rids itself of the fear.

Fredinho

Think the James Lowe experiment should be over after the weekend. Did nothing in attack and terrible in defence. Internationals are beyond his capabilities. I'd also argue that Keenan really isn't the standard to and we should consider playing Larmour in his natural position of full back and stop messing about. Larmour, Earls (for now) and Stockdale is our best back three so play them.

JGP also proved he's not up to it. Murray should start v England and i'd consider any of Casey, Cooney, Marmion, Blade or Mcgrath for the bench spot. I'd argue Cian Healy is lucky to be starting too, completely gone off the boil.

Fair plays to Connors, really hitting his straps at this level. If he can keep growing as he has, him and Dan Leavy both fully fit will be intriguing. Kelleher's time will come but I'd persist with Herring for the moment. England will go after our line out if Ryan is out. Starting Kelleher would be potentially crippling to his game.

If Ryan is out the shuffle will be interesting. Bring in Baird and leave Beirne at 6. Or move Beirne back inside and O'Mahony at 6 for an extra line out option and further help on the defensive line outs. Or Beirne inside, Ruddock in at 6 and match them power for power. It's an intriguing call and Farrell needs to get it right. His job might depend on it

crisco10

thomond2006 wrote: »

Between this and being told to be quiet by Andrew Brace, Sexton is losing a few one-on-one matchups with referees this season.

Whatever about the be quiet, I wouldn't have thought "Don't be scared Johnny" was lost matchup. Clearly Sexton made it clear he didn't want an England v Wales take 2 situation, Poite just chose some funny language to say he was aware and wouldn't have the same happen again.

Fredinho

thomond2006 wrote: »

Between this and being told to be quiet by Andrew Brace, Sexton is losing a few one-on-one matchups with referees this season.

Unfortunately, Johnny's reputation preceeds him and referee's have their backs up before a ball is kicked. Its the same for Farrell for England. By contrast AWJ for Wales can be a prat at times but generally sucks up to referee's and they tend to speak to him and give decisions that way.

dub_skav

Fredinho wrote: »

Unfortunately, Johnny's reputation preceeds him and referee's have their backs up before a ball is kicked. Its the same for Farrell for England. By contrast AWJ for Wales can be a prat at times but generally sucks up to referee's and they tend to speak to him and give decisions that way.

I'd say the opposite.
I'd say Poite is fully aware that Johnny doesn't like him and he was making a point of being even-handed.

Might have been a fresh start moment.

Fredinho

dub_skav wrote: »

I'd say the opposite.
I'd say Poite is fully aware that Johnny doesn't like him and he was making a point of being even-handed.

Might have been a fresh start moment.

And who's fault is that. Wasn't it Johnny who turned to him during a game and said I know you don't like me but you have to talk to me as I'm now the captain. Might be getting referee's mixed up. But Johnny is very confrontational with referees even when he's not captain.

I'm not absolving Poite in any way, he's a fool and always has been. But Johnny needs to be cuter about how he talks to him.

Every referee is studied before the game so teams tend to be aware of what they look for so they don't give away penalties. They get to have a discussion pre game with the referee to ask any questions they want and what referees might blow for.

Johnny has a fresh start moment before every game with Poite so why does he not use it.

There was a reason Paul O'Connell was captain at Munster. ROG was too confrontational with referees in the same way Johnny is. You've gotta play the game and they'll play it with you.

*** I might've misread your point above and apologies if i have

molloyjh

Sexton is nowhere near as confrontational as he was initially. He has improved massively in his time as captain. When was the last time he had a run in with a ref as Ireland captain?

Former Former Former

Do people even know what Poite was talking about?

He was telling Sexton not to worry about Scotland taking a quick tap while Sexton was talking to the Irish players about persistent penalties. He wasn't giving out to him or putting him in his place, it was a run of the mill ref-captain interaction that sounded funny because the ref's first language isn't English. There was no confrontation.

It was the same in New Zealand 2017 when he said "we have a deal" instead of "we agree".

VANG1

Dave Kearney is the form winger in Ireland and not even in the squad, vastly experienced, good under high ball and tackler

dub_skav

Fredinho wrote: »

And who's fault is that. Wasn't it Johnny who turned to him during a game and said I know you don't like me but you have to talk to me as I'm now the captain. Might be getting referee's mixed up. But Johnny is very confrontational with referees even when he's not captain.

I'm not absolving Poite in any way, he's a fool and always has been. But Johnny needs to be cuter about how he talks to him.

Every referee is studied before the game so teams tend to be aware of what they look for so they don't give away penalties. They get to have a discussion pre game with the referee to ask any questions they want and what referees might blow for.

Johnny has a fresh start moment before every game with Poite so why does he not use it.

There was a reason Paul O'Connell was captain at Munster. ROG was too confrontational with referees in the same way Johnny is. You've gotta play the game and they'll play it with you.

*** I might've misread your point above and apologies if i have

You kind of got my point.
I was saying that this specific match was not an example of Johnny being abrasive with refs. Rather, it was Poite going out of his way to show that there was no bad blood.
Also, as Molloy says above, he has improved greatly with this and while he can be spiky, I think he is rarely petulant.
If it's the one I am thinking of with Brace, then Johnny was rightly frustrated by lack of action on high shots and I think Brace came out of that looking worse.

My favourite though was after atry decsion, I think on the Willie Le Rous drop during the swan dive.
Sexton stood in front of the conversion and wouldn't move until the ref agreed to go to TMO. Sexton was the only one in the ground (apart from the "try" scorer) who had any doubt that a try was scored. It was a brilliant piece of belligerence

F.nelson

Fredinho wrote: »

Think the James Lowe experiment should be over after the weekend. Did nothing in attack and terrible in defence. Internationals are beyond his capabilities. I'd also argue that Keenan really isn't the standard to and we should consider playing Larmour in his natural position of full back and stop messing about. Larmour, Earls (for now) and Stockdale is our best back three so play them.

JGP also proved he's not up to it. Murray should start v England and i'd consider any of Casey, Cooney, Marmion, Blade or Mcgrath for the bench spot. I'd argue Cian Healy is lucky to be starting too, completely gone off the boil.

Fair plays to Connors, really hitting his straps at this level. If he can keep growing as he has, him and Dan Leavy both fully fit will be intriguing. Kelleher's time will come but I'd persist with Herring for the moment. England will go after our line out if Ryan is out. Starting Kelleher would be potentially crippling to his game.

If Ryan is out the shuffle will be interesting. Bring in Baird and leave Beirne at 6. Or move Beirne back inside and O'Mahony at 6 for an extra line out option and further help on the defensive line outs. Or Beirne inside, Ruddock in at 6 and match them power for power. It's an intriguing call and Farrell needs to get it right. His job might depend on it

I've said it before and I'm sure ill be saying it again but if these players were international standard they wouldn't be playing with Ireland.

sebdavis

Bazzo wrote: »

"Don't be scared Johnny" will surely go down as one of the funniest rugby moments in history. Poite can't help himself, he's a walking meme machine.

I think the best was Hogg was complaining about Ireland sealing off at breakdown and Scotland couldn't get at the ball

Then Poite turned and pointed to the last penalty Scotland had just got because Ireland hadn't sealed off the ball.

Back in your box Hogg

sydthebeat

F.nelson wrote: »

I've said it before and I'm sure ill be saying it again but these players were international standard they wouldn't be playing with Ireland.

because ireland only play "below international standard" players ??

bennyl10

F.nelson wrote: »

I've said it before and I'm sure ill be saying it again but these players were international standard they wouldn't be playing with Ireland.

when a typo makes the complete opposite of your point

JGP wasn't bad yesterday, dont think he should be above Murray on the displays we've seen

With Lowe, there is nothing to suggest he's test level yet.

Fredinho

Fredinho wrote: »

I'd also argue that Keenan really isn't the standard to and we should consider playing Larmour in his natural position of full back and stop messing about.

What about Keenan, based on how he has actually played in internationals as opposed to any prior assessment of his "ceiling", makes you think he is not up to the standards of test rugby?

I put my hands up myself and say that I did not see him as a future international class winger or full back when he broke into the Leinster team.

But I have to give it to him, he has done really well. Seems he could be one of those players who may not look like a stand-out prospect but survives and then thrives at every level at which he is selected.

Again, judged solely on how he has actually played for Ireland, what do you point to as showing that he's not good enough?

I'm not saying he's our "next big thing" but he has done more than enough, in my view, to hold his position.

ps Just because there are good reasons not to pick Larmour for Ireland on the wing does not mean his "natural position" is fullback. I'd argue Larmour is a luxury (his pace) we can't afford - his all round game is not good enough at the moment and this is exacerbated by his lack of physical presence.