Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

wittycynic

sebdavis wrote: »

I think they should drop Lowe, really because his confidence is shot. Get him back to Leinster so he can build himself back up.

But lets have a look,
Larmour: can't play him he is suspect under high ball
Stockdale: can't play him he can't defend
Lowe: can't play him he can't defend

Seems to be a common pattern here, Irish most exciting and attacked minded players the coaching team cannot bring them into the team and highlight their positive and negate the issues they have. Stockdale couldn't defend under Schmidt yet all we seen him do was score bucket loads of try's.

If Lowe was carving our opposition open on a regular basis I suspect the views of his defensive frailties would be far more charitable.

Instead, he has been ineffective in attack in general so there's no real point in keeping a defensive liability in the team.

O'Gara's point about him being a Kiwi and so being used to spending about 80% of his time developing his attack is an odd one to make. New Zealand teams don't tend to have shoddy defences as a rule, and you would expect someone who had allegedly spent that much time focusing on opening up defences to be much more adept at it, if this were the case.

Fredinho

dub_skav wrote: »

You kind of got my point.
I was saying that this specific match was not an example of Johnny being abrasive with refs. Rather, it was Poite going out of his way to show that there was no bad blood.
Also, as Molloy says above, he has improved greatly with this and while he can be spiky, I think he is rarely petulant.
If it's the one I am thinking of with Brace, then Johnny was rightly frustrated by lack of action on high shots and I think Brace came out of that looking worse.

My favourite though was after atry decsion, I think on the Willie Le Rous drop during the swan dive.
Sexton stood in front of the conversion and wouldn't move until the ref agreed to go to TMO. Sexton was the only one in the ground (apart from the "try" scorer) who had any doubt that a try was scored. It was a brilliant piece of belligerence

F.nelson

bennyl10 wrote: »

when a typo makes the complete opposite of your point

JGP wasn't bad yesterday, dont think he should be above Murray on the displays we've seen

With Lowe, there is nothing to suggest he's test level yet.

Fixed:P

My point would be have JGP and Lowe already proven they aren't international standard solely on the fact that they were let come to play in Ireland. Would we not be better served given players who may be international standard, the games to prove it.

Fredinho

wittycynic wrote: »

O'Gara's point about him being a Kiwi and so being used to spending about 80% of his time developing his attack is an odd one to make. New Zealand teams don't tend to have shoddy defences as a rule, and you would expect someone who had allegedly spent that much time focusing on opening up defences to be much more adept at it, if this were the case.

Love that bolded point, can't remember many NZ wingers who didn't love a tackle and dumping an opposition winger on their arse. In fact many of them took pride in the fact they could tackle so well. Lomu used to do it and intimidate opposition with it. Dougie Howlett also loved a tackle almost as much as scoring tries.

Lowe unfortunately doesn't have the tackling technique down at all and trying to learn it at this stage is too late. His tackle yesterday was far too high, I get that maybe it was attempted at a choke tackle or trying to rip the ball but the opposing player was coming at speed and that's not suitable technique.

F.nelson

wittycynic wrote: »

If Lowe was carving our opposition open on a regular basis I suspect the views of his defensive frailties would be far more charitable.

Instead, he has been ineffective in attack in general so there's no real point in keeping a defensive liability in the team.

O'Gara's point about him being a Kiwi and so being used to spending about 80% of his time developing his attack is an odd one to make. New Zealand teams don't tend to have shoddy defences as a rule, and you would expect someone who had allegedly spent that much time focusing on opening up defences to be much more adept at it, if this were the case.

There you have it. If he was better defensively, then he would be playing in black.

salmocab

F.nelson wrote: »

Fixed:P

My point would be have JGP and Lowe already proven they aren't international standard solely on the fact that they were let come to play in Ireland. Would we not be better served given players who may be international standard, the games to prove it.

So Stander isn’t international standard?

sebdavis

molloyjh wrote: »

Sexton is nowhere near as confrontational as he was initially. He has improved massively in his time as captain. When was the last time he had a run in with a ref as Ireland captain?

It's in people's head that Sexton has run in with ref's. I seen people then say what a great captain POC was. POC and Poite both had run in's worse than anything I have seen from Sexton with any ref.

I can't remember any recent run in's, I can't remember the last one....was it the chat in Oz in 2018 when Sexton said "I know you don't like me but you have to deal with me now"?

crisco10

Fredinho wrote: »

Love that bolded point, can't remember many NZ wingers who didn't love a tackle and dumping an opposition winger on their arse. In fact many of them took pride in the fact they could tackle so well. Lomu used to do it and intimidate opposition with it. Dougie Howlett also loved a tackle almost as much as scoring tries.

Lowe unfortunately doesn't have the tackling technique down at all and trying to learn it at this stage is too late. His tackle yesterday was far too high, I get that maybe it was attempted at a choke tackle or trying to rip the ball but the opposing player was coming at speed and that's not suitable technique.

Lowe always does the high, target the ball tackle, or drag the opponent down on top of himself approach.

He very rarely executes the cheek-to-cheek tackle. Which was what was required on Jones.

Fredinho

crisco10 wrote: »

Lowe always does the high, target the ball tackle, or drag the opponent down on top of himself approach.

He very rarely executes the cheek-to-cheek tackle. Which was what was required on Jones.

Yes but it's a very low percentage tackle, how often do you stop a guy at pace with that method. You're playing against the top level guys now and that technique isn't good enough. Guys at this level can step and you're screwed then.

crisco10

Fredinho wrote: »

Yes but it's a very low percentage tackle, how often do you stop a guy at pace with that method. You're playing against the top level guys now and that technique isn't good enough. Guys at this level can step and you're screwed then.

Agree - that was my point. :-)

Fredinho

crisco10 wrote: »

Agree - that was my point. :-)

Good enough sir. Think I might head back to bed as I'm misreading a lot of peoples posts today

Yeah_Right

The positive for Ireland (as many have mentioned) is the forwards. Ireland has a good pack and they are developing some depth. And as every rugby fan knows, games are won and lost up front. They pretty boys just decide by how much.

The problem with the backs, in my opinion, is they are very lateral. There's no penetration and no one straightening. When the ball goes out the backline, everyone seems to be running across the field, taking up space out wide before passing. Sexton does it a lot. Ringrose too. They try take the defender on the outside but don't have the pace, then they pass and the receiver is running out of room. At one point yesterday Sexton and Keenan collided ruining an attack. Sexton was moving diagonally across field, taking the space and it forced Keenan to cut inside. I was screaming at the TV for Sexton to straighten and release Keenan and I think Lowe outside him.

sebdavis

Fredinho wrote: »

Yes but it's a very low percentage tackle, how often do you stop a guy at pace with that method. You're playing against the top level guys now and that technique isn't good enough. Guys at this level can step and you're screwed then.

Lowe has played against Scottish players all his career for Leinster.

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The positive for Ireland (as many have mentioned) is the forwards. Ireland has a good pack and they are developing some depth. And as every rugby fan knows, games are won and lost up front. They pretty boys just decide by how much.

The problem with the backs, in my opinion, is they are very lateral. There's no penetration and no one straightening. When the ball goes out the backline, everyone seems to be running across the field, taking up space out wide before passing. Sexton does it a lot. Ringrose too. They try take the defender on the outside but don't have the pace, then they pass and the receiver is running out of room. At one point yesterday Sexton and Keenan collided ruining an attack. Sexton was moving diagonally across field, taking the space and it forced Keenan to cut inside. I was screaming at the TV for Sexton to straighten and release Keenan and I think Lowe outside him.

Completely agree.

It is such a sickener to see a player like Ringrose looking rudderless with ball in hand.

And we have absolutely no shortage of ball.

ClanofLams

Seems pretty clearly the coaching. It’s the Leinster back line and Earls, I know step up to international etc but there’s no reason they should be limited. Directions to kick so much don’t help either.

Number 137

Niallof9 wrote: »

No i don't enjoy watching Ireland play that way at all. Its possibly the worst its been in some time. Quite possibly one of the worst styles of rugby, and way of playing in the World. Throw in some terrible calls in selection and yeah i'm done with farrell. Zero apologies for it. As i said, it won't work and AF won't be the coach of Ireland come the World Cup.

There wasn't anything enjoyable about yesterday. If we're at the stage of a wins a win, then we might as well pack it in. Its being a ****e six nations, and AF will still be under pressure if we don't perform against England.

And no i'm not enraged at all. I've made peace with it a long time ago. The high point being the loss to Japan. It seems many on here are still living in some sort of dream World where the performances are acceptable.

But shure a wins a win....who care's if we commit crimes against rugby doing it. I suppose all that talk last year and in November about improving how we play was just for larfs.

The lauding of solidness highlighted by Keenan ( very solid customer) rather than the attacking abilities of Larmour or Stockdale sums up Irish rugby for me. I mean yeah its a game of small margins, but we'll never do anything with that built in fear. Probably will be the next generation, that finally rids itself of the fear.

I remember you previously had a gripe with Irish coaches generally for systematically not picking big players. You said you were a 20 stone back row who played underage international rugby with Ireland, but were ultimately overlooked for pro rugby because of your size. Later in the same discussion you said you were not even an AIL standard player. Perhaps that's why you didn't make it as a pro? My point being, forgive those of us who struggle to understand your thinking.

Fredinho

sebdavis wrote: »

Lowe has played against Scottish players all his career for Leinster.

Hogg plays for Exeter
Maitland plays for Saracens

Both former and possibly future Lions.

Lowe was shown up again yesterday. He's not good enough defensively and has offered nothing going forward at the level to suggest he's worthy of persisting with, given Larmour, Earls and Stockdale are fit and available and more importantly proven at international level.

Earls has been on a Lions tour, Stockdale is Gatlands wet dream of a winger and will be a Lion this summer if the series goes ahead. Larmour might be in the running given he covers all back 5 slots. Lowe isn't in that conversation. Although knowing Warren and his penchant for former kiwi's playing in NH Lowe could be the surprise pick that no one expected.

Fredinho

ClanofLams wrote: »

Seems pretty clearly the coaching. It’s the Leinster back line and Earls, I know step up to international etc but there’s no reason they should be limited. Directions to kick so much don’t help either.

Think you might have a point there. The difference between Leinster and Ireland's attacking play is night and day. Is that the difference between Lancaster and Catt??? Is Catt telling them to kick more, when surely we should play to the strengths of the players involved and given they high number of Leinster players why would you not try and keep the ball in hand as they do to great effect.

Bazzo

Has this been linked yet? (Click in for the full thread)

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1371234770009620483?s=1001

Meme. Machine.

Fredinho

Bazzo wrote: »

Has this been linked yet? (Click in for the full thread)

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1371234770009620483?s=1001

Meme. Machine.

That's an hilarious thread, fair play to Kinsella

sebdavis

Fredinho wrote: »

Hogg plays for Exeter
Maitland plays for Saracens

Both former and possibly future Lions.

Lowe was shown up again yesterday. He's not good enough defensively and has offered nothing going forward at the level to suggest he's worthy of persisting with, given Larmour, Earls and Stockdale are fit and available and more importantly proven at international level.

Earls has been on a Lions tour, Stockdale is Gatlands wet dream of a winger and will be a Lion this summer if the series goes ahead. Larmour might be in the running given he covers all back 5 slots. Lowe isn't in that conversation. Although knowing Warren and his penchant for former kiwi's playing in NH Lowe could be the surprise pick that no one expected.

Hogg spent majority of career with Glasgow. So did Russell. The rest of the team are playing in Scotland and have come up loads of times against Lowe. So trying to say they are suddenly "top level guys" because they have a Scotland jersey on instead of an Edinburgh/Glasgow jersey is not really true is it.

Both Larmour & Stockdale have been hammered by fans while playing for Ireland for defensive ability.

I honestly have no idea what the Lions has to do with the Ireland team in 6 nations?

Fredinho

sebdavis wrote: »

Hogg spent majority of career with Glasgow. So did Russell. The rest of the team are playing in Scotland and have come up loads of times against Lowe. So trying to say they are suddenly "top level guys" because they have a Scotland jersey on instead of an Edinburgh/Glasgow jersey is not really true is it.

Both Larmour & Stockdale have been hammered by fans while playing for Ireland for defensive ability.

I honestly have no idea what the Lions has to do with the Ireland team in 6 nations?

You're looking for an argument and I'm not interested so

sebdavis

Fredinho wrote: »

You're looking for an argument and I'm not interested so

Why am I looking for an argument?

Clegg

Our identification of attacking opportunities is atrocious. The coaches say they're leaving it to the players to play what's in front of them, but the fact that we keep getting it wrong suggests that they need a far more stricter game plan. Or at least greater drilling and help in identifying when the opportunities are there.

Just look at this rubbish from Stander. Two sidesteps from Furlong opens up the Scottish defence and he offloads to CJ. We had created a four on one overlap, but CJ ignores the draw and pass and instead goes for a speculative 20 yard miss pass that goes behind everyone. Completely blew an excellent attacking opportunity.

We've done this throughout the tournament and I just don't know why. It should be something that's fixable, but we're getting worse.

https://twitter.com/VMSportIE/status/1371122984220508161?s=09

crisco10

Clegg wrote: »

Our identification of attacking opportunities is atrocious. Our coaches say they're leaving it to the players to play what's in front of them, but the fact that we keep getting it wrong suggests that they need a far more stricter game plan. Or at least greater drilling.

Just look at this rubbish from Stander. Two sidesteps from Furlong opens up the Scottish defence and he offloads to CJ. We had created a four on one overlap, but CJ ignores the draw and pass and instead goes for a speculative 20 yard miss pass that goes behind everyone. Completely blew an excellent attacking opportunity.

https://twitter.com/VMSportIE/status/1371122984220508161?s=09

Yep, that was very upsetting at the time. Tonnes of space, and the pass means we end up with Lowe just hoofing it long. (Which coulda have happened off any ruck when there was no space)

Fredinho

Clegg wrote: »

Our identification of attacking opportunities is atrocious. The coaches say they're leaving it to the players to play what's in front of them, but the fact that we keep getting it wrong suggests that they need a far more stricter game plan. Or at least greater drilling and help in identifying when the opportunities are there.

Just look at this rubbish from Stander. Two sidesteps from Furlong opens up the Scottish defence and he offloads to CJ. We had created a four on one overlap, but CJ ignores the draw and pass and instead goes for a speculative 20 yard miss pass that goes behind everyone. Completely blew an excellent attacking opportunity.

We've done this throughout the tournament and I just don't know why. It should be something that's fixable, but we're getting worse.

https://twitter.com/VMSportIE/status/1371122984220508161?s=09

Agreed with that part in bold its very poor play from CJ. Moments like that show why the calls for a fit Doris to be involved aren't unwarranted.

honestbroker

VANG1 wrote: »

Dave Kearney is the form winger in Ireland and not even in the squad, vastly experienced, good under high ball and tackler

But what if England play Launchbury on the wing?

Henry Ford III

sydthebeat wrote: »

sorry i didnt realise we here on boards were picking the team... happy days.. get yer boots ready Harry

There's plenty of people "calling for" stuff. It's actually slightly comical.

p.s. I'm retired rugby wise.

honestbroker

Fredinho wrote: »

Agreed with that part in bold its very poor play from CJ. Moments like that show why the calls for a fit Doris to be involved aren't unwarranted.

Maybe Keenan and Lowe should have held their depth?

Interested Observer

honestbroker wrote: »

Maybe Keenan and Lowe should have held their depth?

He should have given the ball to Sexton.