Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

UAEguy2020

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Don’t think it’s a mental block. It’s a not good enough block!

87’ Australia 1/4. Thumped
91’ Robbed!
95’ France 1/4. Thumped
99’ Didn’t even get to 1/4
03’ France 1/4. Thumped
07’ Group
11’ Wales 1/4. Brain Dead
15’ Argentina 1/4. Thumped
19’ Nz 1/4. Thumped
23’ Thumped again

It is a mental block, Ireland played nowhere even remotely close to their best in any of the QFs

UAEguy2020

awec wrote: »

Unless we get really lucky we aren't going to go from never winning a QF to winning 3 knockout games in a row and winning it. Of course nobody will complain if we win it.

But realistically, we need to build toward that. Step one is breaking the mental block we have around winning knockout games.

Win a QF is progress. If we win the SF in the same year that's exceptional. If we won it overall it would be beyond anyone's wildest dreams. But if we got knocked out in a SF it is still progress and something to build upon. We'd have the experience at least of playing in a WC SF.

The QF this especially is very difficult, it arguably could be the toughest KO game we play in the tournament between NZL & France in France. If Ireland won their group and got to the semi they would arguably be favorites no matter who they play there with the exception of possibly Australia depending what nick they are in in 2023.

We need to focus on ourselves now and make our selves the best we can be in 2023 because in reality our performance in the last 2 QFs wouldn’t be good enough to beat any tier 1 nation in this tournament never mind a France or NZL

Dog Botherer

i see we are doing that thing again where we are mad about a thing that has not happened yet

UAEguy2020

Dog Botherer wrote: »

i see we are doing that thing again where we are mad about a thing that has not happened yet

That is true but this does really seem to have an inevitable feeling to it like the last RWC did.

molloyjh

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What makes these QF defeats even worse is the spineless performance that comes with it, thankfully I don’t think we could be more spineless than the 2019 team so hopefully they at least improve on that.

When you see how Scotland performed v Australia in 2015 and Wales in 2015 & 2019 it really puts our QF performances to shame.

This is the most armchair comment I think I've ever seen. Spineless? The level of dick here is peak. A team has a bad run of form and you call them spineless? I'd love to see your reaction to such emotive language used in your workplace if you have a poor period of performance.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

That is true but this does really seem to have an inevitable feeling to it like the last RWC did.

But at what point did it feel inevitable?? Cos that's really not my recollection.

The Summer before the draw, we won our first ever test in SA (after going down to 14 men early). All 3 tests were one score games.

The Autumn after the draw, we beat SA 38-3 in Lansdowne.

A lot can happen in 3 years.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

But at what point did it feel inevitable?? Cos that's really not my recollection.

The Summer before the draw, we won our first ever test in SA (after going down to 14 men early). All 3 tests were one score games.

The Autumn after the draw, we beat SA 38-3 in Lansdowne.

A lot can happen in 3 years.

It’s not SA that worries me it’s the QF that potentially comes with it that worries me.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

This is the most armchair comment I think I've ever seen. Spineless? The level of dick here is peak. A team has a bad run of form and you call them spineless? I'd love to see your reaction to such emotive language used in your workplace if you have a poor period of performance.

Absolutely spineless. The very least I expect to see an Irish team do is show some fight which there was absolutely nothing to be seen of.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

It’s not SA that worries me it’s the QF that potentially comes with it that worries me.

My point was that at the time of the draw, it did not feel inevitable.

errlloyd

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One of our problems is that our players aren't good enough. This is hidden the rest of the cycle because our set up is extremely well optimised for international rugby - unlike almost every other country that is either unable to afford to have their stars in situ all the time (NZ, Scotland, SA, Wal) or has competing club interests that prevent them optimizing their international team (France, England). Our players play at or close to their performance ceiling every single game. South Africa don't see a decent chunk of their players between world cups.

When we bottle at world cups many people incorrectly think that we prepared poorly or bottled it, because teams we were easily able to beat the year before are suddenly much better than us. But a huge amount of that is they simply had more marginal gains available to them in the 6 - 8 weeks of focussed world cup preparation their squad had.

UAEguy2020

errlloyd wrote: »

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One of our problems is that our players aren't good enough. This is hidden the rest of the cycle because our set up is extremely well optimised for international rugby - unlike almost every other country that is either unable to afford to have their stars in situ all the time (NZ, Scotland, SA, Wal) or has competing club interests that prevent them optimizing their international team (France, England). Our players play at or close to their performance ceiling every single game. South Africa don't see a decent chunk of their players between world cups.

When we bottle at world cups many people incorrectly think that we prepared poorly or bottled it, because teams we were easily able to beat the year before are suddenly much better than us. But a huge amount of that is they simply had more marginal gains available to them in the 6 - 8 weeks of focussed world cup preparation their squad had.

If that’s the case why did we smash Scotland,France,Australia in the previous WC’s?

thomond2006

awec

errlloyd wrote: »

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One of our problems is that our players aren't good enough. This is hidden the rest of the cycle because our set up is extremely well optimised for international rugby - unlike almost every other country that is either unable to afford to have their stars in situ all the time (NZ, Scotland, SA, Wal) or has competing club interests that prevent them optimizing their international team (France, England). Our players play at or close to their performance ceiling every single game. South Africa don't see a decent chunk of their players between world cups.

When we bottle at world cups many people incorrectly think that we prepared poorly or bottled it, because teams we were easily able to beat the year before are suddenly much better than us. But a huge amount of that is they simply had more marginal gains available to them in the 6 - 8 weeks of focussed world cup preparation their squad had.

That may be an element of it, but the mental aspect of never having done it is still significant.

We were absolutely beaten out the gate by New Zealand, it was far worse than anyone expected. Comprehensively and mercilessly humped.

The two previous World Cups we were knocked out by Argentina and Wales. They are no better than we are.

The one before that we didn't get out of the pools.

We (as in supporters) still sometimes talk like we're a soft little team that'll get the odd scalp if we put our minds to it. This talk of needing a favourable schedule, needing to avoid all the decent teams, it's so defeatist.

We consistently underperform at the World Cup. We have had the talent to progress past the last 8 more than once. I am sure that for every single Irish player who has played in a QF, the fact that nobody before them has ever won this fixture is on their mind. Got to start breaking those barriers so we can approach it like any other big game and it becomes a bit more procedural.

Former Former Former

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If that’s the case why did we smash Scotland,France,Australia in the previous WC’s?

We didn't smash Australia in 2011 - we beat them in a tryless game that was in the balance until the last five minutes.

We didn't smash France in 2015 - we couldn't shake them off for a long time in that game either.

Scotland in 2019, well, they were dreadful.

UAEguy2020

Former Former Former wrote: »

We didn't smash Australia in 2011 - we beat them in a tryless game that was in the balance until the last five minutes.

We didn't smash France in 2015 - we couldn't shake them off for a long time in that game either.

Scotland in 2019, well, they were dreadful.

But again, this above defeats the narrative created.

UAEguy2020

awec wrote: »

That may be an element of it, but the mental aspect of never having done it is still significant.

We were absolutely beaten out the gate by New Zealand, it was far worse than anyone expected. Comprehensively and mercilessly humped.

The two previous World Cups we were knocked out by Argentina and Wales. They are no better than we are.

The one before that we didn't get out of the pools.

We (as in supporters) still sometimes talk like we're a soft little team that'll get the odd scalp if we put our minds to it. This talk of needing a favourable schedule, needing to avoid all the decent teams, it's so defeatist.

We consistently underperform at the World Cup. We have had the talent to progress past the last 8 more than once. I am sure that for every single Irish player who has played in a QF, the fact that nobody before them has ever won this fixture is on their mind. Got to start breaking those barriers so we can approach it like any other big game and it becomes a bit more procedural.

The issue I have is there were literally only 2 teams I wanted to avoid in a QF, NZL and France in France, and ofcourse we get one of them no matter what in a QF. I'd even be happy enough playing South Africa in a QF if im honest...wont be easy but id take that over France in France and NZ any day of the week.

thebaz

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Don’t think it’s a mental block. It’s a not good enough block!

87’ Australia 1/4. Thumped
91’ Robbed!
95’ France 1/4. Thumped
99’ Didn’t even get to 1/4
03’ France 1/4. Thumped
07’ Group
11’ Wales 1/4. Brain Dead
15’ Argentina 1/4. Thumped
19’ Nz 1/4. Thumped
23’ Thumped again

The 2011 was the one that hurt the most , was like the team weren't foccused on the job on hand - certainly seamed a mental thing we should have been beating Wales with the team we had.

UAEguy2020

thebaz wrote: »

The 2011 was the one that hurt the most , was like the team weren't foccused on the job on hand - certainly seamed a mental thing we should have been beating Wales with the team we had.

It was no different a performance to 2015 or 2019 only in those tournament our opposition saved their best for us.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

That may be an element of it, but the mental aspect of never having done it is still significant.

We were absolutely beaten out the gate by New Zealand, it was far worse than anyone expected. Comprehensively and mercilessly humped.

The two previous World Cups we were knocked out by Argentina and Wales. They are no better than we are.

The one before that we didn't get out of the pools.

We (as in supporters) still sometimes talk like we're a soft little team that'll get the odd scalp if we put our minds to it. This talk of needing a favourable schedule, needing to avoid all the decent teams, it's so defeatist.

We consistently underperform at the World Cup. We have had the talent to progress past the last 8 more than once. I am sure that for every single Irish player who has played in a QF, the fact that nobody before them has ever won this fixture is on their mind. Got to start breaking those barriers so we can approach it like any other big game and it becomes a bit more procedural.

The thing is, I dont think the mental thing was a factor at all until 2019. 2007 we ballsed up our prep. That was a management thing and not related to players or mentality

In 2011 we were in the middle of Deccies "who are my half backs" crisis and he decided against selecting the ones who had twice delivered that year in the big games and reverted to his safe selection, which played into Welsh hands. Again, a coaching issue as opposed to anything to do with player mentality.

In 2015 we just had too many injuries. Yet we battled back to within a score and had Mads made that penalty kick I'm convinced we'd have won. If we were mentally fragile we wouldn't have put ourselves in that position.

2019 became all about the RWC QF. So much so that we took our eyes off the ball in the 6Ns and our form and confidence went to crap. That was a full squad and management issue and def had mentality issues right at the core. Why? Because instead of it being about a path to the final, it finally became about a path to a SF. By making the QF a "thing" it has become a self fulfilling prophesy. The mentality that needs to change is the focus on winning the QF from so far out. That's what screwed us in 2019 (IMO anyway) and yet here we are perpetuating that all over again.

thomond2006

I wouldn't call Murray in 2011 a safe selection. He was a bolter that year.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

The thing is, I dont think the mental thing was a factor at all until 2019. 2007 we ballsed up our prep. That was a management thing and not related to players or mentality

In 2011 we were in the middle of Deccies "who are my half backs" crisis and he decided against selecting the ones who had twice delivered that year in the big games and reverted to his safe selection, which played into Welsh hands. Again, a coaching issue as opposed to anything to do with player mentality.

In 2015 we just had too many injuries. Yet we battled back to within a score and had Mads made that penalty kick I'm convinced we'd have won. If we were mentally fragile we wouldn't have put ourselves in that position.

2019 became all about the RWC QF. So much so that we took our eyes off the ball in the 6Ns and our form and confidence went to crap. That was a full squad and management issue and def had mentality issues right at the core. Why? Because instead of it being about a path to the final, it finally became about a path to a SF. By making the QF a "thing" it has become a self fulfilling prophesy. The mentality that needs to change is the focus on winning the QF from so far out. That's what screwed us in 2019 (IMO anyway) and yet here we are perpetuating that all over again.

2015 was no different a performance to 2019 which shows injuries wasnt the main issue, in both cases Ireland froze until there was no way back.


One factor I must say is no country fixates on a RWC as much as Ireland do, we let it consume us and we **** the bed once we get there just like the last 3.



What helps us in this RWC is we have a big match v SA in our pool to focus on so hopefully we do that and that takes the attention off the QF.

razorblunt

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

2015 was no different a performance to 2019 which shows injuries wasnt the main issue, in both cases Ireland froze until there was no way back.


One factor I must say is no country fixates on a RWC as much as Ireland do, we let it consume us and we **** the bed once we get there just like the last 3.



What helps us in this RWC is we have a big match v SA in our pool to focus on so hopefully we do that and that takes the attention off the QF.

That exact scenario happened in 2015, focused on the French, fell away vs Argentina. Played the knock out game in the group stage.

UAEguy2020

razorblunt wrote: »

That exact scenario happened in 2015, focused on the French, fell away vs Argentina. Played the knock out game in the group stage.

SA is far bigger than that French game in 2015 though, SA is almost like a QF match up in itself.

Podge_irl

razorblunt wrote: »

That exact scenario happened in 2015, focused on the French, fell away vs Argentina. Played the knock out game in the group stage.

We fell away vs Argentina cause we lost pretty much the 5 most important players to our defensive game plan.

I'm sure the players and team will be focused on winning. But its equally absurd to talk about legitimate routes to winning a knock out tournament when you have failed to win a single knock out game in 33 years.

ionadnapokot

thebaz wrote: »

The 2011 was the one that hurt the most , was like the team weren't foccused on the job on hand - certainly seamed a mental thing we should have been beating Wales with the team we had.

It pains me GREATLEY to say this....but after many years i can say it now. Wales were a better team:(
They beat us in 2011 6N, RWC & 2012 6N. They had Ireland completely worked out.

I still firmly believe that Ireland haven't got beyond a 1/4 final because they simply weren't good enough.
& Im afraid nothing is going to change in 3 years.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

SA is far bigger than that French game in 2015 though, SA is almost like a QF match up in itself.

But if we had lost the French game in 2015, we would have played NZ in the QF rather than Argentina. Which is exactly the type of thing you are bemoaning for 2023.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

But if we had lost the French game in 2015, we would have played NZ in the QF rather than Argentina. Which is exactly the type of thing you are bemoaning for 2023.

I know what you mean but that’s not what I’m referring to in this instance. What I mean here is we will be playing essentially a QF level intensity match in the PS unlike the last 2 RWC’s, hopefully if we win that we have the confidence and belief to beat whatever is put in front of us in the actual QF.

irelandrover

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I know what you mean but that’s not what I’m referring to in this instance. What I mean here is we will be playing essentially a QF level intensity match in the PS unlike the last 2 RWC’s, hopefully if we win that we have the confidence and belief to beat whatever is put in front of us in the actual QF.

The French game in 2015 was a QF level intensity game. We suffered a lot of injuries which resulted in us losing our next match.

UAEguy2020

irelandrover wrote: »

The French game in 2015 was a QF level intensity game. We suffered a lot of injuries which resulted in us losing our next match.

Maybe in terms of the hits but if you remember the game, France never even looked like scoring a try, it wasn’t exactly the same as the challenge we faced the following week.

thebaz

ionadnapokot wrote: »

It pains me GREATLEY to say this....but after many years i can say it now. Wales were a better team:(
They beat us in 2011 6N, RWC & 2012 6N. They had Ireland completely worked out.

Id say more Gatland had Kidney worked out - we had a better squad, and Sexton should have played.