Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

VayNiice

mun1 wrote: »

Good to see you had the sense to edit your post .

The only way POM wont be picked for the weekend is if its felt he wont last 60 mins.
I think he will but who knows.

Oh I initially removed the part about him being the ultimate SUAF "warrior" to hide my pro munster bias. Too many soft leinster sissies in the team these days.

Seriously, you can't parachute POM back into the team after a month out when the back row has been firing so well without him. Not to mention the slap in the face to Conan. He should at least have to work his way back in from the bench.

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

...OMahoneys so called stronger traits of "leadership”...

He’s captained every team he’s ever played under, including the Lions. That doesn’t happen unless you are a leader.

I understand why you may not want POM in the team, but this just undermines your argument, imo.

kilns wrote: »

POM and Murray coming straight back into the team would really sum up this management team. Only in Ireland would you take currently the best performing 6 in the six nations out of his position and move him to a position where he may be less effective and bringing a back a scrumhalf in who's USP is getting slow ball out to his backs, when your back line is already under performing

It sounds like you’re not aware that Beirne has played 2 games at 6 and 2 games in the 2nd row in this 6 Nations. For me, he was brilliant in the Wales, France and Scotland games, and solid in the Italy game.

aloooof

We all know why POM has to start against England; he’ll cover back James Lowe’s wing.

The Inbetween is mine

VayNiice wrote: »

Oh I initially removed the part about him being the ultimate SUAF "warrior" to hide my pro munster bias. Too many soft leinster sissies in the team these days.

Seriously, you can't parachute POM back into the team after a month out when the back row has been firing so well without him. Not to mention the slap in the face to Conan. He should at least have to work his way back in from the bench.

Conan is not now, nor will he ever be half the player POM is on the international stage

jacothelad

Movementarian wrote: »

One thing is for sure, this is James Lowe's fault. Pretty sure he missed the tackle on CJ's contract...

I suspect James would miss the tackle when he's having a slash.:D:D

TRC10

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Conan is not now, nor will he ever be half the player POM is on the international stage

2 very different players. If Conan was given the opportunities he could have been a quality international, but Joe preferred the more conservative selection of Stander.

O'Mahony never had a test Lion ahead of him to displace. But again, very different players so not a fair comparison.

VayNiice

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Conan is not now, nor will he ever be half the player POM is on the international stage

Conan was in great form before his injury at the world cup and could have easily been our starting 8. Aside from that he hasn't been given many chances.

If Stephen Ferris' career hadn't been cut so short POM would have far fewer caps than he does now.

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

He’s captained every team he’s ever played under, including the Lions. That doesn’t happen unless you are a leader.

I understand why you may not want POM in the team, but this just undermines your argument, imo.



It sounds like you’re not aware that Beirne has played 2 games at 6 and 2 games in the 2nd row in this 6 Nations. For me, he was brilliant in the Wales, France and Scotland games, and solid in the Italy game.

So should a player be picked just because he is a "leader" despite players who are performing better than him. I was referring to his leadership in the Wales game. It was reckless and a leader should have more sense and it has potentially cost Ireland a championship.

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

So should a player be picked just because he is a "leader" despite players who are performing better than him.

That's not at all what I said. Just that, from the evidence that we have, your suggestion that he doesn't bring leadership to the team is not true.

Fwiw, imo he was one of our best players during the ANC. Remains to be seen how his absence will have affected his form.

kilns wrote: »

I was referring to his leadership in the Wales game. It was reckless and a leader should have more sense and it has potentially cost Ireland a championship.

Little disagreement here, tbh. He won't be the last player to pick up a red for us, but hopefully he'll have learned from it.

theVersatile

TRC10 wrote: »

2 very different players. If Conan was given the opportunities he could have been a quality international, but Joe preferred the more conservative selection of Stander.

O'Mahony never had a test Lion ahead of him to displace. But again, very different players so not a fair comparison.

Conan has nearly 20 caps - and has been breathtakingly average in pretty much every single one of them. How many chances does he deserve to become a "quality international" ?

VayNiice

Sure POMs media appearance could have just been to throw Eddie Jones off the scent.

aloooof

theVersatile wrote: »

Conan has nearly 20 caps - and has been breathtakingly average in pretty much every single one of them. How many chances does he deserve to become a "quality international" ?

To be fair to Conan, in the 2019 6 Nations, he was very good whenever he came on. Imo, he was outside the RWC squad prior to that tournament, but played himself onto the plane. Still wouldn't have him on ahead of CJ, mind.

TRC10

aloooof wrote: »

Little disagreement here, tbh. He won't be the last player to pick up a red for us, but hopefully he'll have learned from it.

It's not so much the red card. We've seen mistimed tackles or clumsy/reckless bits of play. But what O'Mahony did was probably one of the most stupid, braindead things I've ever seen on a rugby field.

Deusexmachina

aloooof wrote: »

He’s captained every team he’s ever played under, including the Lions. That doesn’t happen unless you are a leader.

I understand why you may not want POM in the team, but this just undermines your argument, imo.



It sounds like you’re not aware that Beirne has played 2 games at 6 and 2 games in the 2nd row in this 6 Nations. For me, he was brilliant in the Wales, France and Scotland games, and solid in the Italy game.

Let's be fair here. He captained the Lions for one match and then was dropped from the squad thereafter.
By all means praise his record as captain of Munster but his Lions captaincy is probably best left out of the equation.

Dickie10

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

2002: 45-11
2003:42-6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Ireland

ah great thanks , not as bad as i thought so.....

Dickie10

POM was a great Irish player but like sexton his day is gone. use this game to blood a few younger lads and lads with a future, great opportunity. does it really matter if were bet by 10 or 25 points in the grand scheme? would a win even do anything only paper over the cracks? very little at stake so lets go out and throw off the shackles and have a go id love if we scored 25-30 points even if we conceded 40+

Podge_irl

Dickie10 wrote: »

would a win even do anything only paper over the cracks?

Yes. It would get the IRFU quite a lot of money for one, and it would also suggest that maybe there aren't as many cracks as people are suggesting in the first place.

TRC10

Dickie10 wrote: »

POM was a great Irish player but like sexton his day is gone. use this game to blood a few younger lads and lads with a future, great opportunity. does it really matter if were bet by 10 or 25 points in the grand scheme? would a win even do anything only paper over the cracks? very little at stake so lets go out and throw off the shackles and have a go id love if we scored 25-30 points even if we conceded 40+

We beat England under very similar circumstances with "very little at stake" in 2017. I seem to recall that win being the spark that led to a pretty decent run of from that lasted until November 2018...

We should select the best team to win this game. O'Mahony and Murray aren't in that team.

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

We should select the best team to win this game. O'Mahony and Murray aren't in that team.

... in your opinion.

I genuinely feel a lot of the discussion on here would be better if people added such caveats to their point of view, rather than just declaring things to be true.

Squidgy Black

aloooof wrote: »

... in your opinion.

I genuinely feel a lot of the discussion on here would be better if people added such caveats to their point of view, rather than just declaring things to be true.

Ah aloooof, you should know by now that people's own views are clearly facts around here. There's no such thing as having a differing opinion, it just means 'wrong'.

TRC10

aloooof wrote: »

... in your opinion.

I genuinely feel a lot of the discussion on here would be better if people added such caveats to their point of view, rather than just declaring things to be true.

I went into detail about why Murray shouldn't play in an earlier post.

As regards to O'Mahony, there's a few reasons. He hasn't played in 7 weeks and I'd much rather a fit and firing Baird or Connors.

Also, I think Beirne has proven he's a better 6 and Connors has proven he's a better 7.

And finally, I don't think a guy who pretty much cost us the Wales game with an absolutely braindead piece of play deserves to walk back into the team at the expense of guys who are playing great rugby and haven't let the team down.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

I went into detail about why Murray shouldn't play in an earlier post.

As regards to O'Mahony, there's a few reasons. He hasn't played in 7 weeks and I'd much rather a fit and firing Baird or Connors.

Also, I think Beirne has proven he's a better 6 and Connors has proven he's a better 7.

And finally, I don't think a guy who pretty much cost us the Wales game with an absolutely braindead piece of play deserves to walk back into the team at the expense of guys who are playing great rugby and haven't let the team down.

So you aren't willing to just caveat it as your opinion. You do actually want to dictate it as truth. Because you're, what, special or something?

This is exactly the sort of crap that makes this place such a sh**show during international windows.

Dave_The_Sheep

Would "I think" / "I don't think" not mean it's a persons opinion and not presented as objective fact?

I mean, I don't preface my posts with "In my opinion" or whatever, I just assume people know it's my opinion. I mean, it's me posting it, of course it's just my opinion.

I don't have (hah!) any strong opinions on on this either way, but I've never really gotten why people can't make that assumption automatically.

Anyway. I think we're going to get spanked by England.

ersatz

Not having played recently and the irresponsibility of the red card weigh against POM being involved for me, plus there is no big performance argument for him over the alternatives.

On Sexton, I've been someone criticising Farrell for not developing other tens given J's age and injury profile. But in fairness to Farrell the alternatives aren't up to it at least until Carberry is ready and some youngsters develop further. And Johnny has played very well and has been seeing out games recently. One thing I've noticed with him though is that he does not have the acceleration to break that he had. There have been a few moments this campaign where in the past he would have been away but he's been snagged. The clock is ticking.

leakyboots

Baird over POM, some people are jumping the shark completely - you really want to put a virtually untried Baird in against England from the off?

Baird's time will come if he proves himself further. More power to him if he is picked but I can't see if happening.

POM had rightfully earned the jersey before the tournament, he hasn't become a crap player because of a moment of stupidity. Harsh on Connors perhaps given his performances but POM is the better player. I'd have Connors on the bench.

And POM wouldn't be moving Beirne, I would have thought that was obvious. The decision on that head-to-head doesn't have to happen as Beirne will move to the engine room anyway as he's next best second row and is needed there

Leinstertomas

leakyboots wrote: »

Baird over POM, some people are jumping the shark completely - you really want to put a virtually untried Baird in against England from the off?

Baird's time will come if he proves himself further. More power to him if he is picked but I can't see if happening.

POM had rightfully earned the jersey before the tournament, he hasn't become a crap player because of a moment of stupidity. Harsh on Connors perhaps given his performances but POM is the better player. I'd have Connors on the bench.

And POM wouldn't be moving Beirne, I would have thought that was obvious. The decision on that head-to-head doesn't have to happen as Beirne will move to the engine room anyway as he's next best second row and is needed there

If Beirne is moved to second row then why does POM have to replace Connors? Or are you saying you would prefer Ruddock/Conan to come in?

irelandrover

I dont think POM should start. Id have Ruddock at 6 and move Beirne to the second row.

However all the people saying that POM hasnt played in 6 weeks, that would be valid if he was injured but he has been training fully. He is fully fit and the break isnt a reason he shouldnt start.

sydthebeat

irelandrover wrote: »

However all the people saying that POM hasnt played in 6 weeks, that would be valid if he was injured but he has been training fully. He is fully fit and the break isnt a reason he shouldnt start.

Its very much an issue, and one patently obvious when you look at England and their poor start to the competition.

Those sarries players weren't injured and were all training, they just were not match fit... And were shown up for it against Scotland. 4 games in and they are now humming nicely as seen against France.

POM has had zero competitive rugby in seven weeks. It would be a huge gamble to expect him to be at the levels required for a test game against England, when coming in that cold. Compared to the available alternatives that's not a gamble that I would take..

Disclaimer: the above is my opinion and should not be taken as fact, evidence or any sort of empirical proof based on anything other that my own observations and extrapolations.

beggars_bush

What's the gameplan to allow us compete with England?

That will dictate selection

The Inbetween is mine

1: Healy
2: Kelleher
3: Furlong
4: Henderson
5: Beirne
6: POM
7:Connors
8: Stander
9:Murray
10: Sexy..
11:Earls
12: Aki
13: Henshaw
14: Stockdale
15: Keenan

That's the team I want to see... but I'm not sure I have any say in picking the side...