Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ionadnapokot

thebaz wrote: »

Id say more Gatland had Kidney worked out - we had a better squad, and Sexton should have played.

Id say Edwards had Ireland worked out:)
And yes Sexton should have played!

Have a look at that Wales team again..
BO'D & Sexton were the only players that i would put in that Welsh backline.
POC and Best are the only players id put in their tight 5.
Even our "holy trinity" were up against Warburton, Lydiate and Falateu
https://youtu.be/_xI4VetP9mM?t=622

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wouldn't call Murray in 2011 a safe selection. He was a bolter that year.

I dont think Kidney was ever comfortable with either Reddan or Sexton. Or maybe more to the point, he was never comfortable with the way we needed to play with them at 9 and 10. Murray and ROG were familiar to him from that perspective, so probably just phrased what I meant badly. They were safe in terms of the way they played and what he was comfortable with. He just seemed to really struggle with the game post-2009 and never really settled on his 9 and 10 as a result.

AbusesToilets

Murray was also comfortably worse than Reddan at that time. Had a glacial pass, and wasn't capable of controlling a game as well.

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

One of our problems is that our players aren't good enough. This is hidden the rest of the cycle because our set up is extremely well optimised for international rugby - unlike almost every other country that is either unable to afford to have their stars in situ all the time (NZ, Scotland, SA, Wal) or has competing club interests that prevent them optimizing their international team (France, England). Our players play at or close to their performance ceiling every single game. South Africa don't see a decent chunk of their players between world cups.

When we bottle at world cups many people incorrectly think that we prepared poorly or bottled it, because teams we were easily able to beat the year before are suddenly much better than us. But a huge amount of that is they simply had more marginal gains available to them in the 6 - 8 weeks of focussed world cup preparation their squad had.

Nah sorry I don’t think the evidence points to this at all.

If we have a squad that is specifically able to overperform in only international competition between world cups then why:
- Did we also underperform in the 2019 6 Nations?
- Are we generally well represented in Lions squads, where this benefit should be wiped away?
- Do the same players show themselves to be better than their peers at club level?

Especially when you consider in the last tournament we had exceptionally good players in key positions. World class talent at tight head and a top 10.

Then also look at other teams who out perform us in these competitions and ask yourself if they have better playing resources. Do Japan? Did Argentina in 2015? Did Scotland in 2015? Absolutely not.

Just seems like sandbagging to me. The talent is there, the performances are not. We can put together a squad of 30 players who are capable of winning a word cup if they perform to their highest level, and they absolutely did not do that in the last competition. The fact they are now working with mental skills experts points to the fact they have recognised that fact as well.

We could definitely win a World Cup. There’s a massive gap to bridge, but all the potential is there. We’d need to make the same leap that South Africa did under Rassie, but it’s certainly possible.

Former Former Former

Kidney had a major issue with Reddan, just never rated him at all. Throwing in Murray looked like a ballsy move but really it was because he needed someone who wasn't Reddan, and by 2011, TOL's form had plummeted to the point where Kidney couldn't pick him.

errlloyd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nah sorry I don’t think the evidence points to this at all.

If we have a squad that is specifically able to overperform in only international competition between world cups then why:
- Did we also underperform in the 2019 6 Nations?
- Are we generally well represented in Lions squads, where this benefit should be wiped away?
- Do the same players show themselves to be better than their peers at club level?

Good points. I'll outline my feelings on these - I am not confident I am right.

- We underperformed a bit in the 6n, but that was within the standard deviation of form.
- We do fine in test 15 selection, but not very well. 1st test of the last 4 tours we had 2 (2005), 5 (2009), 4 (2013), 4 (2017). Again considering all our best players are always eligible, well managed all year, and the whole damn tour is run out of Ireland it's not that surprising. But beyond that, I think our problem is our squad not our stars.
- Our clubs are the most well optimised part of our set up. Firstly we divide all test reources between 3.5 clubs with almost no leakage. Secondly our stars player fewer club minutes than basically anyone else.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We’d need to make the same leap that South Africa did under Rassie, but it’s certainly possible.

I don't agree with this really. Ignore the fact that the gains they are being judged on included moving from playing away, to playing in a neutral venue and gaining a new coach when they had a frankly bad coach before. And just look at the marginal gains they had in returning personnel and remember we will never have that. They had 9 changes to their starting 15 for the world cup final, versus the team that played us 24 (edited from 12) months before. 4 of those were the addition of world-class players they had not picked for the AI due to external factors that don't apply to Ireland (Vermuelen, Faf, Le Roux, Kolbe).

So aside from everything else, for us to be able to have a SA "like" touraround we have to have 4 world-class players that we are currently not picking and start picking them.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nah sorry I don’t think the evidence points to this at all.

If we have a squad that is specifically able to overperform in only international competition between world cups then why:
- Did we also underperform in the 2019 6 Nations?
- Are we generally well represented in Lions squads, where this benefit should be wiped away?
- Do the same players show themselves to be better than their peers at club level?

Especially when you consider in the last tournament we had exceptionally good players in key positions. World class talent at tight head and a top 10.

Then also look at other teams who out perform us in these competitions and ask yourself if they have better playing resources. Do Japan? Did Argentina in 2015? Did Scotland in 2015? Absolutely not.

Just seems like sandbagging to me. The talent is there, the performances are not. We can put together a squad of 30 players who are capable of winning a word cup if they perform to their highest level, and they absolutely did not do that in the last competition. The fact they are now working with mental skills experts points to the fact they have recognised that fact as well.

We could definitely win a World Cup. There’s a massive gap to bridge, but all the potential is there. We’d need to make the same leap that South Africa did under Rassie, but it’s certainly possible.

The quality of player debate is moot, because we've never performed with anything close to aggression or energy. Flat, limp efforts where the team has been in its shell from before kickoff. Inferior teams will still put up almighty fights, see an opportunity and outperform their talent levels. Ireland has the opposite problem.

There's been 3 tournaments where we had a legitimate chance to make the final, based off of talent and favorably draw, and we balls it up. 2003, 2011 and maybe 2015. All saw us fail to perform against teams that we had recently beaten.

swiwi_

Can't believe everyone's missing the point. There was MASSIVE FRAUD, and Ireland actually won the RWC in 87, 91, 95, 99, 03, 07, 11, 15 and 19.

ionadnapokot

errlloyd wrote: »

They had 9 changes to their starting 15 for the world cup final, versus the team that played us 12 months before. 4 of those were the addition of world-class players they had not picked for the AI due to external factors that don't apply to Ireland (Vermuelen, Faf, Le Roux, Kolbe).

So aside from everything else, for us to be able to have a SA "like" touraround we have to have 4 world-class players that we are currently not picking and start picking them.

24 months!
Dont forget they also had to have Jantjies starting that game in 2017
Pollard on the bench!

& the 6-2 split was a game changer for them because they could bring Francois Steyn in to the bench.

Ireland might improve in three years.....& we will have maybe 2 genuine world class players

UAEguy2020

errlloyd wrote: »

Good points. I'll outline my feelings on these - I am not confident I am right.

- We underperformed a bit in the 6n, but that was within the standard deviation of form.
- We do fine in test 15 selection, but not very well. 1st test of the last 4 tours we had 2 (2005), 5 (2009), 4 (2013), 4 (2017). Again considering all our best players are always eligible, well managed all year, and the whole damn tour is run out of Ireland it's not that surprising. But beyond that, I think our problem is our squad not our stars.
- Our clubs are the most well optimised part of our set up. Firstly we divide all test reources between 3.5 clubs with almost no leakage. Secondly our stars player fewer club minutes than basically anyone else.




I don't agree with this really. Ignore the fact that the gains they are being judged on included moving from playing away, to playing in a neutral venue and gaining a new coach when they had a frankly bad coach before. And just look at the marginal gains they had in returning personnel and remember we will never have that. They had 9 changes to their starting 15 for the world cup final, versus the team that played us 24 (edited from 12) months before. 4 of those were the addition of world-class players they had not picked for the AI due to external factors that don't apply to Ireland (Vermuelen, Faf, Le Roux, Kolbe).

So aside from everything else, for us to be able to have a SA "like" touraround we have to have 4 world-class players that we are currently not picking and start picking them.

Are you seriously calling Le Roux world class 😂

Also this comment highlights another problem for Ireland which probably is why we have performance anxiety at these tournaments, we MASSIVLY over think everything. If we just chill out and stop worrying about everything and focused on getting our **** together the results will take care of themselves, always worrying about the opposition and what they might do is not what good teams do, that’s what made us so successful in 2018, we didn’t give a **** what we were facing we just backed ourselves and the confidence oozed throughout the squad as a result.

UAEguy2020

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The quality of player debate is moot, because we've never performed with anything close to aggression or energy. Flat, limp efforts where the team has been in its shell from before kickoff. Inferior teams will still put up almighty fights, see an opportunity and outperform their talent levels. Ireland has the opposite problem.

There's been 3 tournaments where we had a legitimate chance to make the final, based off of talent and favorably draw, and we balls it up. 2003, 2011 and maybe 2015. All saw us fail to perform against teams that we had recently beaten.

That’s the reality, the talk of quality of player is irrelevant because if we aren’t going to perform anywhere near our best at a QF the talk of having a top squad is futile. We won’t beat any top 8 nation in a RWC QF with the performance we had in the last 2 QF’s never mind beating a NZL or France!

Rugbymad2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Are you seriously calling Le Roux world class 😂

Also this comment highlights another problem for Ireland which probably is why we have performance anxiety at these tournaments, we MASSIVLY over think everything. If we just chill out and stop worrying about everything and focused on getting our **** together the results will take care of themselves, always worrying about the opposition and what they might do is not what good teams do, that’s what made us so successful in 2018, we didn’t give a **** what we were facing we just backed ourselves and the confidence oozed throughout the squad as a result.

I think you clues to make a statement that leroux isn’t world class.think you should have a proper look at what he does for the team,he links everything him and pollard.so maybe go watch him play and see what he does off the ball to create space for the SA players aswell as how many try assists he gets

UAEguy2020

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

I think you clues to make a statement that leroux isn’t world class.think you should have a proper look at what he does for the team,he links everything him and pollard.so maybe go watch him play and see what he does off the ball to create space for the SA players aswell as how many try assists he gets

There’s a difference between that and being world class. That doesn’t make you world class.

Rugbymad2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

There’s a difference between that and being world class. That doesn’t make you world class.

So been the creater and running lines that free up ur team to score doesn’t make u world class?!?ok think I have just proved my point

UAEguy2020

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

So been the creater and running lines that free up ur team to score doesn’t make u world class?!?ok think I have just proved my point

I guess that makes every play making 15 world class then, it’s called their ****ing job.

Rugbymad2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I guess that makes every play making 15 world class then, it’s called their ****ing job.

There’s not one fullback in the NH that does that.just because u can catch a high ball doesn’t make u a good fullback.look at Kearney,bang average

TRC10

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

There’s not one fullback in the NH that does that.just because u can catch a high ball doesn’t make u a good fullback.look at Kearney,bang average

Is this the same Rob Kearney that put in one of the greatest individual performances in Lions history. And the European player of the year winner?

UAEguy2020

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

There’s not one fullback in the NH that does that.just because u can catch a high ball doesn’t make u a good fullback.look at Kearney,bang average

It doesnt make him World Class, he's different but that doesnt mean he's world class.

Dubinusa

I don't think we can win the world cup until ......the new young lads are blooded and given time to find their feet.
The arguments surrounding a 38 yr old Sexton are part of the problem. He's stored away for Leinster and only plays the meaningful matches. His main course of duty is with the national set up. Meanwhile, HB and others play week in week out and aren't exposed to top level competition. They are behind a part time Leinster player. But it's not just Sexton! It's similar with Murray. Clearly Cooney was head and shoulders above him over the last couple of years and he only got scraps.

Farrell imo, has done well bringing in new lads. The more the merrier. The issue is realizing that lads getting a handful of minutes is ridiculous. Who knows, maybe Ben Healy is good enough right now to lead Ireland. But, we won't know if he's just given crumbs.

That said, I reckon Cian Healy will be jettisoned after this coming 6nations. The fact that Kilcoyne is out is probably the only reason that he's being a starter recently. A healthy Kilcoyne will push him to the bench and EOS is coming up behind him.

I expect a different make up in the squad by 2023. There's no avoiding time and some of the lads will be past it by then. If we go to France with the same core we will be well beaten. Cian Healy, Sexton, Earls, POM and Murray will be done imo.

Stander could be gone as well as Herring.
Coming in I can see Casey, Coombes, HB, Ben Healy and Penny. The squad has about 30 matches prior to the rwc, so changes will be coming.

UAEguy2020

Dubinusa wrote: »

I don't think we can win the world cup until ......the new young lads are blooded and given time to find their feet.
The arguments surrounding a 38 yr old Sexton are part of the problem. He's stored away for Leinster and only plays the meaningful matches. His main course of duty is with the national set up. Meanwhile, HB and others play week in week out and aren't exposed to top level competition. They are behind a part time Leinster player. But it's not just Sexton! It's similar with Murray. Clearly Cooney was head and shoulders above him over the last couple of years and he only got scraps.

Farrell imo, has done well bringing in new lads. The more the merrier. The issue is realizing that lads getting a handful of minutes is ridiculous. Who knows, maybe Ben Healy is good enough right now to lead Ireland. But, we won't know if he's just given crumbs.

That said, I reckon Cian Healy will be jettisoned after this coming 6nations. The fact that Kilcoyne is out is probably the only reason that he's being a starter recently. A healthy Kilcoyne will push him to the bench and EOS is coming up behind him.

I expect a different make up in the squad by 2023. There's no avoiding time and some of the lads will be past it by then. If we go to France with the same core we will be well beaten. Cian Healy, Sexton, Earls, POM and Murray will be done imo.

Stander could be gone as well as Herring.
Coming in I can see Casey, Coombes, HB, Ben Healy and Penny. The squad has about 30 matches prior to the rwc, so changes will be coming.

I do think for us to have any chance in 2023 we really need to be going with a young fresh squad, we do have a lot of good players coming through in almost every position so we have no excuse, it’s on us now to bring those players through, time is limited as we only have 30 games worth of experience left to hand out.

The tour in 2021 will be important with the lions happening as it’s a chance to cast the net wider and look at the Penny’s,Hodnetts etc possibly even players like A.Sexton, Ahern etc guys with lots of potential like we did with Ryan in 2017.

Former Former Former

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I do think for us to have any chance in 2023 we really need to be going with a young fresh squad, we do have a lot of good players coming through in almost every position so we have no excuse, it’s on us now to bring those players through, time is limited as we only have 30 games worth of experience left to hand out.

No, we don't. That's the problem.

UAEguy2020

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, we don't. That's the problem.

You should watch rugby then.

Sanjuro

I do love it when an entire thread is derailed by one poster and their inane prattle.

irishbucsfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, we don't. That's the problem.

We absolutely do. Impossible to say they’ll be any better or worse than any other nations, but we have as much potential in our provincial teams right now as we’ve ever had, and a lot of existing quality in the side. Just need to get back to a place where the team are performing to their potential.

We didn’t go from a top side in the world to average around 2018-2019 because every Irish person suddenly became ****e at rugby.

Former Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We absolutely do. Impossible to say they’ll be any better or worse than any other nations, but we have as much potential in our provincial teams right now as we’ve ever had, and a lot of existing quality in the side. Just need to get back to a place where the team are performing to their potential.

We didn’t go from a top side in the world to average around 2018-2019 because every Irish person suddenly became ****e at rugby.

OK, obviously we have good players coming through, but we don't have them in sufficient quantities to be able to say "we have no excuse" in 2023. I think our squad will be a fair bit weaker in 2023 than it was in 2019.

If we want to improve from where we are now, we need better players than what we currently have - and I'm struggling to see many of those, especially in certain positions.

Every time I see the words "he'd do a job", a little piece of me dies.

UAEguy2020

Former Former Former wrote: »

OK, obviously we have good players coming through, but we don't have them in sufficient quantities to be able to say "we have no excuse" in 2023. I think our squad will be a fair bit weaker in 2023 than it was in 2019.

If we want to improve from where we are now, we need better players than what we currently have - and I'm struggling to see many of those, especially in certain positions.

Every time I see the words "he'd do a job", a little piece of me dies.

That’s because someone else’s grass is always greener.

It might be weaker we don’t know we need to see how the young players take to test rugby, some might be naturals and some might flop, we need to see.

It isn’t about the here and now it’s about 2023, it’s about building in experience so our young players with potential become accustomed to test rugby at 2023 and at that point have a boat load of caps so don’t find the RWC daunting but at the same time have a lot to give. For example Baird,Casey,Byrne etc these 3 are young player who need to be capped ASAP with 2023 in mind, you don’t want key players to only have 10 caps in a RWC, we need them with 25-30 caps atleast.

We need focus on youth and being as fresh as possible in a RWC as no offense to our stars but the only experience they have for a RWC is failure and abysmal failure at that so I don’t see the point in going for experience, if anything going young, fresh players is best as they are fearless and won’t have the quarter hoodoo following them as not many have experienced it.

Paul Smeenus

Former Former Former wrote: »

OK, obviously we have good players coming through, but we don't have them in sufficient quantities to be able to say "we have no excuse" in 2023. I think our squad will be a fair bit weaker in 2023 than it was in 2019.

If we want to improve from where we are now, we need better players than what we currently have - and I'm struggling to see many of those, especially in certain positions.

Every time I see the words "he'd do a job", a little piece of me dies.

Or a better coach.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Or a better coach.

We dont know how good Farrell is yet. And even if he were great, he won't be able to do much with limited resources.

Ireland have no stand out loosehead, little more than potential at hooker, no destructive ball carrier in the back row (or at all arguably), no clear replacements at 9 or 10 and limited centre options which was starkly highlighted last month.

Sure we have promising guys coming through, but we've often seen promise not translate. Theres no guarantee that the guys we are all looking to will be able to deliver at Test level.

I really think people need to reassess their expectations for the next few years.

irishbucsfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

OK, obviously we have good players coming through, but we don't have them in sufficient quantities to be able to say "we have no excuse" in 2023. I think our squad will be a fair bit weaker in 2023 than it was in 2019.

If we want to improve from where we are now, we need better players than what we currently have - and I'm struggling to see many of those, especially in certain positions.

Every time I see the words "he'd do a job", a little piece of me dies.

There is no rugby team in the world. Or really any other sport I can think of, who could ever say they “have no excuse” at a competition of that standard. So agree with you there.

We definitely have the quality there to contend for it though. We’ll have among the best squads at the competition again. Unfortunately it’s everything else it takes to turn a good squad into champions that we seem to be missing. If they can understand and solve that problem this time there’s no reason we can’t win.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

We dont know how good Farrell is yet. And even if he were great, he won't be able to do much with limited resources.

Ireland have no stand out loosehead, little more than potential at hooker, no destructive ball carrier in the back row (or at all arguably), no clear replacements at 9 or 10 and limited centre options which was starkly highlighted last month.

Sure we have promising guys coming through, but we've often seen promise not translate. Theres no guarantee that the guys we are all looking to will be able to deliver at Test level.

I really think people need to reassess their expectations for the next few years.

We have a wealth of talent at loosehead. They’ve not been needed yet because they’re behind one of the best we’ve ever had and he’s not finished yet.

We’ve arguably as much depth at back row as anyone in the world. A destructive ball carrier is not a necessity for a world class back row.

We’ve loads of options going forward at 9. No idea what the supposed problem is there. JGP had some great moments surrounded by poor performances last month.

10 is the unsolved question currently but there are more potential answers to that question than we’ve ever had. It would be extremely surprising if that is left unanswered by 2023. Were miles away from the days of Paddy Wallace as 10 cover.


There’s huge talent in Ireland. We’re not the best in the world at every position but no team ever has been and that’s nowhere near necessary to be successful. South Africa are clear examples of that.