Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

bilston

Dubinusa wrote: »

I reckon Catt is done either way. The backline are playing as individuals. No one has any confidence. There is no script and there doesn't seem to be one emerging, so far. With the talent available, it's disheartening.

We're lacking penetration. Its an obvious thing to thing to say, but it's true, we are playing with more width but we arent really going anywhere.

IMO we need quicker ball and more gain line in midfield.

I genuinely think we could do worse than look at Craig Casey at 9 and Stuart McCloskey at 12.

Realistically McCloskey at 12 will never happen now, but sooner or later Casey will be at 9 and we will at least get faster ball to attack with.

leakyboots

I really don't think our problems in attack start at 9 - it's a systemic issue. That being said, if players can't spot a 5 on 2 overlap out wide then you can't be blaming the coaches for players' tunnel vision. Same for defensive howlers like misreading matchups and falling off tackles like we've seen.

I would still be looking at Catt after this tournament if I were Farrell, it's not working.

Said it before but last year with Munster you could see glimpses of where Larkham was trying to bring the players, there's a marked improvement this season in how they keep the ball alive and offload more out of the tackle. Rightly or wrongly he has a clear plan in mind, I don't see this with Catt currently.

leakyboots

Would love to see McCloskey at 12 and Henshaw outside him

Buer

TRC10 wrote: »

I don't understand the dislike of Jackman. The guy has coached in Ireland, Wales and France and has better insight than 90% of analysts who just tell you what you already know.

A lot of people coach. That doesn't mean they're particularly astute rugby brains. Jackman was sacked late season by Grenoble when he had them in an unrecoverable position from relegation and the players had him removed. He got Clontarf RFC relegated when coaching in Ireland. They had consistently been one of the best sides in the AIL for the previous decade.

He was sacked by the Dragons halfway through his contract after starting the season with 2 wins from 10. His coaching career suggests he's actually not very insightful when it comes to the game at all.

Dave_The_Sheep

I don't find his punditry particularly insightful and it feels as if he starts off a train of though then just forgets half way through. Though he is better than Voldem- Lenihan, I suppose that's not a very high bar. As Buer says, Jackman's coaching career is not exactly littered with success.

sebdavis

Buer wrote: »

A lot of people coach. That doesn't mean they're particularly astute rugby brains. Jackman was sacked late season by Grenoble when he had them in an unrecoverable position from relegation and the players had him removed. He got Clontarf RFC relegated when coaching in Ireland. They had consistently been one of the best sides in the AIL for the previous decade.

He was sacked by the Dragons halfway through his contract after starting the season with 2 wins from 10. His coaching career suggests he's actually not very insightful when it comes to the game at all.

I think that is a bit harsh to be honest, 2011 he went to Grenoble as a consultant. Worked hard till 2016 when he took over as head coach. During that period it was very successful for Grenoble.
He said on the radio at the time they got an extra 5 m per season of TV money but just ended up getting the same quality of player but having to pay a lot more. They ended up getting gobbled up by the big boys as they didnt have a budget

Dragons was a sh*t storm. A club which was gone and then started again by WRU. He was always on a hiding to nothing. Some of his targets was to take players dumped by the other regions, take them in adn give them a run, just in case they might come good......

From his interview he has done good and knows a lot....I like him......

CMcsporty

Buer wrote: »

A lot of people coach. That doesn't mean they're particularly astute rugby brains. Jackman was sacked late season by Grenoble when he had them in an unrecoverable position from relegation and the players had him removed. He got Clontarf RFC relegated when coaching in Ireland. They had consistently been one of the best sides in the AIL for the previous decade.

He was sacked by the Dragons halfway through his contract after starting the season with 2 wins from 10. His coaching career suggests he's actually not very insightful when it comes to the game at all.

I like Jackman
Just saying!

For the record: Clontarf were relegated in 2010 when he was there on a part-time basis (DofR when he was still at Leinster). Jackman got them promoted back to 1A when he was the head coach and then resigned.

TRC10

Buer wrote: »

A lot of people coach. That doesn't mean they're particularly astute rugby brains. Jackman was sacked late season by Grenoble when he had them in an unrecoverable position from relegation and the players had him removed. He got Clontarf RFC relegated when coaching in Ireland. They had consistently been one of the best sides in the AIL for the previous decade.

He was sacked by the Dragons halfway through his contract after starting the season with 2 wins from 10. His coaching career suggests he's actually not very insightful when it comes to the game at all.

True, a lot of people do coach. Not many people coach elite sport at the top level. That would suggest he has a far more astute rugby brain than your average Joe.

Anyway, I never argued that he was a good coach. I said I don't understand the dislike many seem to have towards him as an analyst. Seems to me that disliking him is just fashionable and people just latch onto the narrative that he's a bad analyst.

Lost Ormond

Clegg wrote: »

Murray Kinsella and Bernard Jackman are very negative on the.42 rugby podcast which is unusual as they're normally quite upbeat about Ireland's potential. Kinsella in particular thinks we've gone backwards in terms of attacking structure.

He compared the game Vs Scotland in the Autumn Nations Cup to last week's game and thinks we're in a very bad position. Last November there were glimpses of the gamplan Farrell was working towards, but with the exception of the Italy game we've seen no such attacking structure this season. Jackman thinks we're in for a hiding. Complimented our forwards doing a number on the Scottish lineout, but thinks we wing have the same successes this weekend.

They concluded that Ireland right now are winning games on attitude alone. We're fully of heart and commitment and well organised but showing little in the way of skill outside of the forwards. It's fairly scathing really and not something I expected from either.

I dont think they were really that negative more realistic based on whats happened so far.

kilns wrote: »

With Murray and Aki picked we are not going to see any pretty attacking patterns this weekend from Ireland

What completely different attacking patterns would you be expecting from different players anyway?

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. We are creating space and overlaps and not using them and players that generally link up well with those around them at their provinces look hesitant and unsure.

Lowe is absolutely a victim of this, hasn't been used effectively going forward and isn't a strong defender at this level yet and his performances have suffered. Same was the case for Stockdale earlier in the season.

I watched Ringrose at the weekend and whilst he may have been carrying a knock - his decision making was poor and that has never really been a part of his game.

For sure - the effort and intensity is there and the pack are going well, but another loss this weekend and I fear heads will start to drop. Once that happens the work rate may well start to fall off and then we're in a real spot of bother.

I dont think Lowe has been a victim at all. He is a very poor defender and playing with Leinster packs who are so often very dominant which gives a very different impression to when the pack in front of him is matched or beaten. He isnt near the player some have been making him out to be.

TRC10 wrote: »

I don't understand the dislike of Jackman. The guy has coached in Ireland, Wales and France and has better insight than 90% of analysts who just tell you what you already know.

He has coached badly/not done very well in roles in Ireland/Wales/France.

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

He has coached badly/not done very well in roles in Ireland/Wales/France.

Again, I never said he was a great coach. There have been great coaches who are **** analysts.

His coaching record doesn't render his analysis invalid.

I challenge you to name a coach who has done a good job at the Dragons.

wittycynic

CMcsporty wrote: »

I find MK always balanced and fair in his analysis and critique. Eoin Toolan also. They have both been critical of Irelands attack since the France game in 2020 in particular.

Even BOD is now also been critical because It's painfully obvious that even off 1st phase attack Ireland are appallingly limited.

I'm concerned that, even if we get a hiding on Saturday, the Scotland win will paper over the cracks in this team to a large degree. If we had lost that game (and we gave it a real go), a defeat to England would have placed Farrell under enormous pressure to go.

As it stands, a loss to England now, in the context of 2 wins and narrow losses to France and Wales, can be seen merely as a below par championship, rather than what it is, which is a bit of a disaster.

I dont wish anyone to lose their jobs in management, but we have some very good players and they deserve better than to have their talents and short international careers squandered by coaches that are out of their depth.

Unless we see a win over England and some evidence of an effective attack strategy in our back play, surely Farrell and Catt should be shown the door.

Ardillaun

boetstark wrote: »

Al die beste

Thanks. Is the other one wrong or used more idiomatically elsewhere?

Dubinusa

England have not been very good this 6nations. Except, last weekend. I reckon a fast start by us and who knows? I would hope to see something from our backline. I've just rewatched the France match and it makes for some painful viewing. We haven't had a good outing yet, which is a concern.

Lost Ormond

Lost Ormond wrote: »

I dont think Lowe has been a victim at all. He is a very poor defender and playing with Leinster packs who are so often very dominant which gives a very different impression to when the pack in front of him is matched or beaten. He isnt near the player some have been making him out to be.

He has been the best back three in Ireland since his arrival and the reality of that fact hasn't been neutralised by a few questionable performances in green.

The entire Irish backline is malfunctioning and bar gathering low percentage plays kicking from 9 or 10 we've converted little of our occasional dominance into tries and experienced players are receiving the ball and then acting with complete uncertainty and ineffectiveness when tasked with doing something with it. Given the performance of the Irish pack - Ireland should be well on track for a championship (and potentially a grand slam bar for O'Mahony's moment of madness).

Lowe will go back to Leinster and unless something has affected his mindset during lockdown I've little doubt that he will once again start to dominate at European level as he has done before. I'm not suggesting he doesn't have weaknesses to his game - but I am making the argument that his strengths are wasted in a team that is so one dimensional that the back three spend most of their time adding bodies to the defensive line or counter rucking. Dave Kearney would be the best possible addition to the back line given the way we are playing at the moment and that is a reflection of our failure to effectively utilise Larmour, Stockdale, Lowe, Conway etc etc.

I was certain Lowe would become first choice the second he was available. That turned out to be accurate and unless he has deteriorated as a player I suspect that when Ireland sorts out it's coaching deficiencies he'll be back in the mix again.

Paul Smeenus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He has been the best back three in Ireland since his arrival and the reality of that fact hasn't been neutralised by a few questionable performances in green.

The entire Irish backline is malfunctioning and bar gathering low percentage plays kicking from 9 or 10 we've converted little of our occasional dominance into tries and experienced players are receiving the ball and then acting with complete uncertainty and ineffectiveness when tasked with doing something with it. Given the performance of the Irish pack - Ireland should be well on track for a championship (and potentially a grand slam bar for O'Mahony's moment of madness).

Lowe will go back to Leinster and unless something has affected his mindset during lockdown I've little doubt that he will once again start to dominate at European level as he has done before. I'm not suggesting he doesn't have weaknesses to his game - but I am making the argument that his strengths are wasted in a team that is so one dimensional that the back three spend most of their time adding bodies to the defensive line or counter rucking. Dave Kearney would be the best possible addition to the back line given the way we are playing at the moment and that is a reflection of our failure to effectively utilise Larmour, Stockdale, Lowe, Conway etc etc.

I was certain Lowe would become first choice the second he was available. That turned out to be accurate and unless he has deteriorated as a player I suspect that when Ireland sorts out it's coaching deficiencies he'll be back in the mix again.

Some day, the IRFU will ask itself how it could have failed James Lowe quite so badly. I have no doubt there will be many blazers for whom it will be their greatest regret in life.

Alternatively, James Lowe could learn how to tackle and we can see where we go from there.

Dubinusa

I don't know what to think about Lowe. Watching the Ireland v France match there was a period in the 2nd half where he missed 2 tackles in the span of a few seconds. Absolutely awful technique and execution. He may be top class for Leinster and he is, but he's rarely ever tested defensively.
I reckon if Conway or Stockdale were playing wing for Leinster these past few years, they also would be scoring tries in spades. He's probably got to find a spot in his technique that is a starting point to execute a tackle. He goes high and seems to fall off. It's amazing to me that he has got this far with such a gaping hole in his play. It's similar to Larmour and his never-ending problems fielding the high ball. It's a big problem that is easily exploited.
Stockdale too, has his issues and that's why he too has a target on his back. The upcoming players like Balacoune and McElroy seem to have better technique.
At Lowe's age it is likely he's not going to improve to the point where he's locked in as a starter for Ireland. I think Balacoune is the next option and possibly is the most rounded wing coming up.
Regardless of how Lowe's used, the opposition will have the ball. He has to complete tackles! The likes of Watson, Kolbe etc would go right through him. He could improve, but with the other players in contention he may struggle to find a place. I thought this might be an issue before he played for Ireland. The problem is the lack of top quality opposition in the pro12. If he's not under the kosh at league level, he won't excel when faced with quality opponents.
The lack of ambition, execution and cohesion in the back line is also a problem. He receives the ball with little space and little time. Thus we see what we have seen from him.i also believe he must have known deep down that he's not good enough for the all blacks. Ireland was and is an opportunity for him to mix it up with the big boys.
He will get plenty of time with Leinster to regroup and gain back some confidence. Then if there is a summer tour, he could go very well and build towards the player he could be.

Dubinusa

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Some day, the IRFU will ask itself how it could have failed James Lowe quite so badly. I have no doubt there will be many blazers for whom it will be their greatest regret in life.

Alternatively, James Lowe could learn how to tackle and we can see where we go from there.

How would the IRFU fail Lowe? He's failing himself! It's up to him to turn it around.

kilns

Lost Ormond wrote: »

I dont think they were really that negative more realistic based on whats happened so far.


What completely different attacking patterns would you be expecting from different players anyway?


I dont think Lowe has been a victim at all. He is a very poor defender and playing with Leinster packs who are so often very dominant which gives a very different impression to when the pack in front of him is matched or beaten. He isnt near the player some have been making him out to be.



He has coached badly/not done very well in roles in Ireland/Wales/France.

My point is you are not going to see fast ball going out the line as Murray is incapable of that anymore and Aki is not the most creative 12. So it will be simple one up runners stuff followed by kicks

yerrahbah

:rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/lukefitz11/status/1372606749874778114

molloyjh

Dubinusa wrote: »

How would the IRFU fail Lowe? He's failing himself! It's up to him to turn it around.

That was sarcasm. Lots and lots of sarcasm.

That said I think both Paul and Venjur have a point. We simply haven't been able to utilise Lowes strengths in any way and so all we've seen are his glaring weaknesses. He has rightly been dropped, but if he was tearing things up going forward the conversation would probably be somewhat different. Would it lead to everyone declaring him the Messiah and ignoring his weaknesses? No. But it would shift the conversation in terms of whether people were willing to forgive the odd defensive error as a trade off for what he brings going forward. When he's bringing very little going forward there isnt really a trade off at all. And that is an Ireland issue more so than a James Lowe issue.

realhorrorshow

yerrahbah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/lukefitz11/status/1372606749874778114

Yes, Farrell should have definitely blooded that plucky young upstart, Rhys Ruddock.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...
I was certain Lowe would become first choice the second he was available. That turned out to be accurate and unless he has deteriorated as a player I suspect that when Ireland sorts out it's coaching deficiencies he'll be back in the mix again.

I agree with all of that. But Lowe will need to work on his tackle technique too. I don’t expect him to become a world class tackler, but it can’t continue to be such a glaring weakness as it has been in the last few matches.

He’s a professional. He can work on defensive reading and positioning, tackle technique and whatever else he needs. The coaches will have identified the point where he went wrong and they can work with him to improve those areas.

The Ireland attack needs to improve but so does Lowe’s defence.

aloooof

With Lowe at the moment, we’re getting all of the downside and none of the upside.

In attack overall, we’re not performing. I can see that being down to coaching / systems. But Lowe’s missed tackles / poor positioning isn’t down to poor defensive coaching / systems, imo. That’s on Lowe.

thomond2006

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was certain Lowe would become first choice the second he was available. That turned out to be accurate and unless he has deteriorated as a player I suspect that when Ireland sorts out it's coaching deficiencies he'll be back in the mix again.

Blaming coaching deficiencies on Lowe's tackling ability is quite a take.

ec18

TRC10 wrote: »

Ok there are decent arguments for POMs inclusion but this isnt one. POM just isnt a better footballer. Conan is the best footballing 8 in Ireland. His offloading game is probably the best in Ireland too. Anyone who has watched Conan regularly will know this.

Conan started the 3rd test v Aus in 2018 and played well. He also played very well against Scotland and France in 2019.

TRC10 wrote: »

Not necessarily. He was a fringe player because A: Joe Schmidt favoured the more one-dimensional player in Stander (not a criticism because we had success with that approach) and B: He had lengthy spells out with injury in 2019 and 2020.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the first time Conan has been fit during the Farrell era, he's been brought straight into the squad.

He also uses footwork pre-contact. And my god have we needed that against England in recent years.

Ding ding we have a winner in the what OTB pundits say will fix Ireland's attack Bingo.

Really though Conan hasn't been first choice for Leinster how anyone can think that he's the automatic successor to Stander is a bit much. Schmidt preferred Stander because he was the better player. Farrell didn't include him in squads until he had to with injury. Doris and Coombes are the future hopefully both stay healthy and we have a good contest for the 8 jersey for the next decade or so

kilns

It really sums up this current coaching ticket when a serious attacking talent such as Lowe is reduced to a hesistant, low on confidence player in a green jersey

No disrespect to Earls but he is not in his league in terms of attacking prowess and if utilized properly would worry any defence but we continue with players like Earls because they are reliable and solid even if they dont offer much going forward, instead of working on potential game breakers that we have.

Compare our winger situation to that of France, England and Wales, we are so far behind and have no threat out wide, it makes us easier to defend against

Louis Friend

That’s not how international rugby works. It’s a step-up. You can’t have a winger who’s really good in attack and appalling in defence. The opposition don’t say “oh that’s interesting” and ignore it. They target the player. And you’d swear he’s Jonah Lomu in attack the way some posters are fawning over him. He’s a poor man’s Isa Nacewa.

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

It really sums up this current coaching ticket when a serious attacking talent such as Lowe is reduced to a hesistant, low on confidence player in a green jersey

I’d suggest he’s low on confidence because of his defensive errors as much as anything. He should have done a lot better for, at least, each of the Rees-Zammit, Penaud and Huw Jones tries.

I find these posts trying to absolve Lowe of blame and pinning it on the coaches a bit baffling tbh.

Louis Friend

aloooof wrote: »

I’d suggest he’s low on confidence because of his defensive errors as much as anything. He should have done a lot better for, at least, each of the Rees-Zammit, Penaud and Huw Jones tries.

I find these posts trying to absolve Lowe of blame and pinning it on the coaches a bit baffling tbh.

Farrell deserves credit for backing Lowe to right previous wrongs. But then Lowe failed, and was rightly cast aside. We should keep him in reserve for matches against cannon fodder.

honestbroker

Louis Friend wrote: »

That’s not how international rugby works. It’s a step-up. You can’t have a winger who’s really good in attack and appalling in defence. The opposition don’t say “oh that’s interesting” and ignore it. They target the player. And you’d swear he’s Jonah Lomu in attack the way some posters are fawning over him. He’s a poor man’s Isa Nacewa.

Excellent summary