Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

honestbroker

Louis Friend wrote: »

That’s not how international rugby works. It’s a step-up. You can’t have a winger who’s really good in attack and appalling in defence. The opposition don’t say “oh that’s interesting” and ignore it. They target the player. And you’d swear he’s Jonah Lomu in attack the way some posters are fawning over him. He’s a poor man’s Isa Nacewa.

Excellent summary.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

That was sarcasm. Lots and lots of sarcasm.

That said I think both Paul and Venjur have a point. We simply haven't been able to utilise Lowes strengths in any way and so all we've seen are his glaring weaknesses. He has rightly been dropped, but if he was tearing things up going forward the conversation would probably be somewhat different. Would it lead to everyone declaring him the Messiah and ignoring his weaknesses? No. But it would shift the conversation in terms of whether people were willing to forgive the odd defensive error as a trade off for what he brings going forward. When he's bringing very little going forward there isnt really a trade off at all. And that is an Ireland issue more so than a James Lowe issue.

Yeah, I maybe ladled it on a bit thick, in fairness.

But I think Lowe has been found out,to a degree. Venjur might think he has deteriorated - I think a player with defensive limitations that haven't been exposed at club level is now having them revealed at international level. I don't think he has gone backwards - I think this is how good he is.

Our attack is incoherent and rudderless, and no winger would be tearing up trees on that Ireland side. We are not getting the best out of him. But Lowe hasn't delivered much. He's looked busy - I personally don't think he's looked particularly dangerous. Lots of hustle, not much actual joy.

At the end of the day, he's been playing in a backline in which 5 out of 6 are his provincial team mates, and he's played himself off the team. I know our attack isn't delivering, but Lowe has looked like a liability. Keenan hasn't. He hasn't looked like a world beater, but no-one wants him replaced.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Blaming coaching deficiencies on Lowe's tackling ability is quite a take.

Not the point I'm making. He deserves and has gotten plenty of criticism and has been dropped from the 23.

But there are two sides to the coin, if our backline was functioning and the ball was actually reaching the wings then Lowe and others would have some attacking play to contrast with the defensive failures.

As I said in the match thread, the individual mistakes hurt us but we seem to be focusing on the defensive ones when the decision making in possession was also a significant problem. Lowe makes mistakes in blue (albeit not to the same extent) but these are offset by his destructiveness ball in hand.

I very much blame the coaches for the lack of upside in the selection of our back three.

ec18

yerrahbah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/lukefitz11/status/1372606749874778114

Luke fitz has just become a comedy show since he retired. Project player blah blah, when Kimmage went on the show with him he showed that all he had was a headline nothing beneath it

honestbroker

Quote: As I said in the match thread, the individual mistakes hurt us but we seem to be focusing on the defensive ones when the decision making in possession was also a significant problem. Lowe makes mistakes in blue (albeit not to the same extent) but these are offset by his destructiveness ball in hand.
Against at times very poor and nearly always half interested opposition.

Bluwave

Furlong
Beirne
Henshaw

The only three players that I think would get a start in the English side.

While we never really lose by much on the scoreboard we have games like the French match that we never look like winning, little has been made of our capitulation against Scotland, losing a 14 point lead in international rugby is criminal and was papered over by sextons kick.

Apart from the first 4 minutes of the Scotland game I haven’t seen anything from this Irish side that makes me think we can reverse the last few years of England games.

We need dominance in the lineout, unlikely.
We need Itoje giving away loads of penalties, unlikely.
We need to win penalties at scrum time, unlikely.
We need bundee to stay on the pitch for 80 minutes, unlikely
We need sexton to stay on the pitch for 80 minutes, unlikely

The English side have played the Sarries core back into fitness and

phog

yerrahbah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/lukefitz11/status/1372606749874778114

Great player, nearly signed for Munster and I was gutted when he reneged on it but he's a joke of pundit. I have zero time for him as it seems he's just an attention seeker nowadays.

honestbroker

Bluwave wrote: »

Furlong
Beirne
Henshaw

The only three players that I think would get a start in the English side.

While we never really lose by much on the scoreboard we have games like the French match that we never look like winning, little has been made of our capitulation against Scotland, losing a 14 point lead in international rugby is criminal and was papered over by sextons kick.

Apart from the first 4 minutes of the Scotland game I haven’t seen anything from this Irish side that makes me think we can reverse the last few years of England games.

We need dominance in the lineout, unlikely.
We need Itoje giving away loads of penalties, unlikely.
We need to win penalties at scrum time, unlikely.
We need bundee to stay on the pitch for 80 minutes, unlikely
We need sexton to stay on the pitch for 80 minutes, unlikely

The English side have played the Sarries core back into fitness and

Murray would walk into the English and Lions. Gatland and Eddie are winners.

TRC10

ec18 wrote: »

Ding ding we have a winner in the what OTB pundits say will fix Ireland's attack Bingo.

Really though Conan hasn't been first choice for Leinster how anyone can think that he's the automatic successor to Stander is a bit much. Schmidt preferred Stander because he was the better player. Farrell didn't include him in squads until he had to with injury. Doris and Coombes are the future hopefully both stay healthy and we have a good contest for the 8 jersey for the next decade or so

Did I say he'll fix our attack?

Did I say he's the automatic successor to Stander?

kilns

Of course Lowe deserves criticism for his defence and yes he should have done better for tries that were conceded in his area but that is something that can be easily and quickly fixed (if he is willing)

The upside are that he could be a huge attacking weapon for us if he is utliized properly as he is head and shoulders (attacking wise) above any other wingers which we have

kilns

honestbroker wrote: »

Murray would walk into the English and Lions. Gatland and Eddie are winners.

Murray would be very lucky to be picked for the lions squad let alone walk into the team

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

I’d suggest he’s low on confidence because of his defensive errors as much as anything. He should have done a lot better for, at least, each of the Rees-Zammit, Penaud and Huw Jones tries.

I find these posts trying to absolve Lowe of blame and pinning it on the coaches a bit baffling tbh.

You find it as baffling, everyone else I have talked to say the whole Ireland system is baffling and it is clear the players are not sure themselves.
I don't see anyone saying Lowe is absolved of all blame but trying to say the coach's have nothing to answer is baffling to me.

Buer

Lowe is a frustrating one. He's obviously talented and has the ability to do things that no other winger in Ireland does in terms of his ability to get on the ball, power through people and his finishing ability is probably the best of any back three player in the country. There's nobody you'd back more 5m from the line with a defender in front of him.

But that doesn't excuse the defensive lapses that we've seen from him. Nor is it down to the Irish coaching team. They can work with him to improve those issues but they have been present at Leinster too most recently against Munster in the autumn when Conway walked past him without a finger on him to score a try. The only difference being, he's far less likely to be exposed when playing with Leinster. Those moments don't happen too often because the opposition rarely get good ball in space and the cover is almost always there.

The coaching team went for reward over risk and it hasn't paid off. I don't blame them as the upside is significant but it really hasn't worked out. I wouldn't blame them for Lowe's issues either. They've backed him repeatedly and many would have dropped him before now. His error count has been too high even outside of the tackling lapses. He's a classic example of someone who is finding out that test rugby is a massive step up on the Pro14 and most European games.

Until he can address his defensive concerns, he has no place in the Irish team. Whilst someone like Stockdale similarly has had his issues, we've seen him perform consistently in green in the past and he is a more natural attacker in space than Lowe. As such, I don't think there's any rationale in Lowe being back in the side until we see a singificant improvement in his defensive performances and, unfortunately for him, he's probably unlikely to be tested in the way he needs to be in blue.

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

You find it as baffling, everyone else I have talked to say the whole Ireland system is baffling and it is clear the players are not sure themselves.
I don't see anyone saying Lowe is absolved of all blame but trying to say the coach's have nothing to answer is baffling to me.

Where did I say the coaches have nothing to answer for?? Complete straw man.

Paul Smeenus

There's also a great deal of hyperbole about Lowe's attack. He's not the best finisher in Ireland - Stockdale is.

Like players who get better and better the longer they're injured, Lowe's attack is getting better and better the longer we play under Catt's hapless attack (or lack thereof).

arsebiscuits1

Bluwave wrote: »

Furlong
Beirne
Henshaw

The only three players that I think would get a start in the English side.

Stander over Wilson
Murray over Youngs
Keenan over Malins
Henderson would also get into that English side but you're going down the line of reshuffling people around etc.
Porter over Stuart
POM over Earl
JGP over Robson
Larmour over Merchant.

That's 11 out of the 23 who'd have a strong bet at making a combined team. Just under half. Fairly reflective of the spread to be honest

ebbsy

kilns wrote: »

Of course Lowe deserves criticism for his defence and yes he should have done better for tries that were conceded in his area but that is something that can be easily and quickly fixed (if he is willing)

The upside are that he could be a huge attacking weapon for us if he is utliized properly as he is head and shoulders (attacking wise) above any other wingers which we have

+1

And if he has a manager that can bring him on and improve him.

Do we have that.

Buer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

There's also a great deal of hyperbole about Lowe's attack. He's not the best finisher in Ireland - Stockdale is.

I think it's an ambiguous enough statement for differing opinions to ring true. If we've a winger given the ball 5m from the line with a defender between him and the line, I'd rather Lowe. I think Earls is historically the best we have.

If a winger gets the ball in space on the 22 and he has to beat his man or, from further out, needs to make a clean break/chip the defence, then it's Stockdale all day.

Where I'd say there's hyperbole about Lowe is him as a general attacking threat. He's a link man on the wing. He makes the half break and offloads and runs good support lines. You'll be hard pushed to see him cut through a defensive line though or rack up clean breaks.

ebbsy

Why not try building for the future. Give Lowe a chance to bed in.

Instead we are picking players that are leaving Ireland ?

We are going to get hammered either way.

hahashake

Interestingly Lowe has made more metres than anyone else in the 6N. Also, I think even his biggest detractors would agree that the backline is not functioning well on attack, which makes it harder as a finisher to show your strongest skillset.

His mistakes on defence are reason enough to drop him.

Paul Smeenus

Buer wrote: »

I think it's an ambiguous enough statement for differing opinions to ring true. If we've a winger given the ball 5m from the line with a defender between him and the line, I'd rather Lowe. I think Earls is historically the best we have.

If a winger gets the ball in space on the 22 and he has to beat his man or, from further out, needs to make a clean break/chip the defence, then it's Stockdale all day.

Where I'd say there's hyperbole about Lowe is him as a general attacking threat. He's a link man on the wing. He makes the half break and offloads and runs good support lines. You'll be hard pushed to see him cut through a defensive line though or rack up clean breaks.

Yeah - good reasoning.

aloooof

hahashake wrote: »

Interestingly Lowe has made more metres than anyone else in the 6N. Also, I think even his biggest detractors would agree that the backline is not functioning well on attack, which makes it harder as a finisher to show your strongest skillset.

His mistakes on defence are reason enough to drop him.

I think this is it in a nutshell.

yerrahbah

Have been really impressed with Keenan, has really made the 15 jersey his own

Big test tomorrow against the kicking game of England

Former Former Former

ebbsy wrote: »

Why not try building for the future. Give Lowe a chance to bed in.

Instead we are picking players that are leaving Ireland ?

Unless Andy is planning to play CJ on the wing, I'm not sure this statement makes any sense.

UAEguy2020

ebbsy wrote: »

Why not try building for the future. Give Lowe a chance to bed in.

Instead we are picking players that are leaving Ireland ?

We are going to get hammered either way.

Playing young players in a hammering isn’t going to make them better, infact it will likely have the opposite effect.

UAEguy2020

Bluwave wrote: »

Furlong
Beirne
Henshaw

The only three players that I think would get a start in the English side.

While we never really lose by much on the scoreboard we have games like the French match that we never look like winning, little has been made of our capitulation against Scotland, losing a 14 point lead in international rugby is criminal and was papered over by sextons kick.

Apart from the first 4 minutes of the Scotland game I haven’t seen anything from this Irish side that makes me think we can reverse the last few years of England games.

We need dominance in the lineout, unlikely.
We need Itoje giving away loads of penalties, unlikely.
We need to win penalties at scrum time, unlikely.
We need bundee to stay on the pitch for 80 minutes, unlikely
We need sexton to stay on the pitch for 80 minutes, unlikely

The English side have played the Sarries core back into fitness and

Henderson
Stander
Murray
Stockdale
Ringrose would all get in the England team aswell plus there are quite afew tight calls like if Sexton is in good form, Keenan etc

thomond2006

ebbsy wrote: »

Why not try building for the future. Give Lowe a chance to bed in.

Instead we are picking players that are leaving Ireland ?

We are going to get hammered either way.

How many games does Lowe need exactly? He's made six starts in a highly competitive position. He's had a chance and isn't good enough.

Former Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

How many games does Lowe need exactly? He's made six starts in a highly competitive position. He's had a chance and isn't good enough.

Is it highly competitive? I'm not sure it is tbh. If Stockdale has a nightmare tomorrow, where do we go from there? Larmour is the last man standing and he's had his own issues of late. Earls is on his lap of honour, Dave Kearney is the next best option but he's shoving on too, then you're hoping for Baloucoune to step up or some other young fella to come through.

Lowe has to be dropped, no question, but there isn't a long queue of alternatives, so his test career may not be over at all yet.

Mebuntu

Buer wrote: »

If we've a winger given the ball 5m from the line with a defender between him and the line, I'd rather Lowe. I think Earls is historically the best we have.

If a winger gets the ball in space on the 22 and he has to beat his man or, from further out, needs to make a clean break/chip the defence, then it's Stockdale all day.

That's the problem with us. Top teams set out to give their wingers the ball in those positions. We have great finishers but we don't.

It's the equivalent of, back in the day, Man U having a gameplan that excluded giving a pass to George Best.

Bluwave

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Henderson
Stander
Murray
Stockdale
Ringrose would all get in the England team aswell plus there are quite afew tight calls like if Sexton is in good form, Keenan etc

I’m picking a 15 based on the two 15’s.
I wouldn’t pick CJ over Billy.
Beirne is better than Henderson and that gives you a second row of Beirne and itoje.
Murray isn’t what he once was, very little between him and the English 9 currently.
Stockdale is coming back from injury, on 6N form he is only in the Irish team because Lowe can’t defend.


Ringrose would be lucky to make the leinster team on his last performance.