Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Garda Kenny

Buer wrote: »

A lot of people coach. That doesn't mean they're particularly astute rugby brains. Jackman was sacked late season by Grenoble when he had them in an unrecoverable position from relegation and the players had him removed. He got Clontarf RFC relegated when coaching in Ireland. They had consistently been one of the best sides in the AIL for the previous decade.

He was sacked by the Dragons halfway through his contract after starting the season with 2 wins from 10. His coaching career suggests he's actually not very insightful when it comes to the game at all.

That’s an incredibly arrogant assessment of Jackman. The word that comes to mind when you speak about others when I think of you is “lazy”. That’s the word that best describes someone with all the wonderful intellectual insight you provide us all with. And “under achiever”. London Irish will be on stand by with plaudits when it should have been Ireland.

arsebiscuits1

Bluwave wrote: »

I’m picking a 15 based on the two 15’s.
I wouldn’t pick CJ over Billy.
Beirne is better than Henderson and that gives you a second row of Beirne and itoje.
Murray isn’t what he once was, very little between him and the English 9 currently.
Stockdale is coming back from injury, on 6N form he is only in the Irish team because Lowe can’t defend.


Ringrose would be lucky to make the leinster team on his last performance.

if you're picking a team based on the two 15s then why would you be comparing Stander to Billy at all?

Stander is at 6 tomorrow and with the greatest respect to Mark Wilson, there isn't really a discussion there.

Also Beirne isn't a tight side lock. Himself and Itoje would be a pretty unbalanced second row.

irishbucsfan

Bluwave wrote: »

I’m picking a 15 based on the two 15’s.
I wouldn’t pick CJ over Billy.
Beirne is better than Henderson and that gives you a second row of Beirne and itoje.
Murray isn’t what he once was, very little between him and the English 9 currently.
Stockdale is coming back from injury, on 6N form he is only in the Irish team because Lowe can’t defend.


Ringrose would be lucky to make the leinster team on his last performance.

Henderson has been exceptional this year. One of the form 2nd rows in the entire competition. He's been absolutely everywhere.

Whether or not he's marginally better than Itoje this year or vice versa isn't really something to worry about.

bilston

Bluwave wrote: »

I’m picking a 15 based on the two 15’s.
I wouldn’t pick CJ over Billy.
Beirne is better than Henderson and that gives you a second row of Beirne and itoje.
Murray isn’t what he once was, very little between him and the English 9 currently.
Stockdale is coming back from injury, on 6N form he is only in the Irish team because Lowe can’t defend.

Ringrose would be lucky to make the leinster team on his last performance.

Beirne is not a better second row than Henderson, but either way one of them, along with Ryan, would IMO make it.
Ringrose had a poor game against Scotland, but it was one match, and he may well have been carrying a knock given Farrell's post match comments and the fact he is unavailable this week. I'd take him over any English 13.
Murray v Youngs is close. Its not like either is really demanding selection at the moment. Youngsters was good against France though, but he is too inconsistent.

mfceiling

honestbroker wrote: »

Murray would walk into the English and Lions. Gatland and Eddie are winners.

That's the problem. He'd walk in. Too slow....he'd need to pick up his speed.

mfceiling

Former Former Former wrote: »

Is it highly competitive? I'm not sure it is tbh. If Stockdale has a nightmare tomorrow, where do we go from there?

Has Stockdale ever had a real nightmare on the left wing? Full back absolutely but if you check the all time try scorers for Ireland we've obviously got a lad who can score tries.
Keenan is a natural 15 and the Stockdale to 15 argument is null and void but stick him on the wing and the pros outnumber the cons all day.

Bluwave

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Henderson has been exceptional this year. One of the form 2nd rows in the entire competition. He's been absolutely everywhere.

Whether or not he's marginally better than Itoje this year or vice versa isn't really something to worry about.

Henderson has been excellent, I think he has outplayed Ryan, but I think Beirne had played better than both of them, and if I don’t think any more than 3 of our starting 15 tomo would make that England starting team.

Maybe someone has a stormer or a nightmare tomo and that view changes, and maybe it’s being pessimistic about some Irish performances but that’s how I see it.

You can argue the toss about two or three more players, but the reality is that iin the majority of positions England have superior players.

sebdavis

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

I think these are interesting. The metres made

honestbroker

sebdavis wrote: »

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

I think these are interesting. The metres made

Ireland have 3 in the top 5 wow!!!!!!!!!!!

Former Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

Has Stockdale ever had a real nightmare on the left wing? Full back absolutely but if you check the all time try scorers for Ireland we've obviously got a lad who can score tries.
Keenan is a natural 15 and the Stockdale to 15 argument is null and void but stick him on the wing and the pros outnumber the cons all day.

Ah that wasn't really my point, I could as easily have said "what if Stockdale does his cruciate tomorrrow?", i.e. not that Stockdale will be crap, just that if he isn't back to form, then there isn't a plethora of options who are much better than either he or Lowe.

sydthebeat

sebdavis wrote: »

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

I think these are interesting. The metres made

all that says is kick the ball to ireland and put them under pressure.. they cant do anything with it.

4 irish players in the top 7 of meters made

4 welsh players in the top 4 tackles made is a much more telling stat
you have to go to 16th !! position to find the top irish tackler

teams are very happy to let us have the ball.... a screaming indictment of our attacking play.

wittycynic

kilns wrote: »

It really sums up this current coaching ticket when a serious attacking talent such as Lowe is reduced to a hesistant, low on confidence player in a green jersey

No disrespect to Earls but he is not in his league in terms of attacking prowess and if utilized properly would worry any defence but we continue with players like Earls because they are reliable and solid even if they dont offer much going forward, instead of working on potential game breakers that we have.

Compare our winger situation to that of France, England and Wales, we are so far behind and have no threat out wide, it makes us easier to defend against

Earls is Ireland's second highest try scorer of all time, has actually scored in this tournament, and has played better than Lowe throughout. Hardly to be derided as not offering "much going forward". If Lowe is a top attacker, we've seen little evidence of it in Green, or even that he should be ahead of Earls.

Buer

Garda Kenny wrote: »

That’s an incredibly arrogant assessment of Jackman. The word that comes to mind when you speak about others when I think of you is “lazy”. That’s the word that best describes someone with all the wonderful intellectual insight you provide us all with. And “under achiever”. London Irish will be on stand by with plaudits when it should have been Ireland.

Gosh, I just never know what to say when I meet a fan!

sebdavis

sydthebeat wrote: »

all that says is kick the ball to ireland and put them under pressure.. they cant do anything with it.

4 irish players in the top 7 of meters made

4 welsh players in the top 4 tackles made is a much more telling stat
you have to go to 16th !! position to find the top irish tackler

teams are very happy to let us have the ball.... a screaming indictment of our attacking play.

Exactly, we don't have any attack. Doesn't matter who is on the pitch. That's not the players, that's the coach's

ersatz

Buer wrote: »

Until he can address his defensive concerns, he has no place in the Irish team. Whilst someone like Stockdale similarly has had his issues, we've seen him perform consistently in green in the past and he is a more natural attacker in space than Lowe. As such, I don't think there's any rationale in Lowe being back in the side until we see a singificant improvement in his defensive performances and, unfortunately for him, he's probably unlikely to be tested in the way he needs to be in blue.

This is the key thing on Lowe, he just hasn't delivered in attack in any way that can mitigate his obvious deficiencies in defence. A big part of his game for Leinster is his work around the field, rucking and support, and his aggression with the ball and ability to beat defenders. He's not shone in any of those areas in green.

kilns

thomond2006 wrote: »

How many games does Lowe need exactly? He's made six starts in a highly competitive position. He's had a chance and isn't good enough.

Its far from a highly competitive position in Ireland, on the other wing is Earls who is not international standard any more but is still the best we have, says it all

honestbroker

honestbroker wrote: »

Ireland have 3 in the top 5 wow!!!!!!!!!!!

So. Much. Possession.

And done so little good with it.

sydthebeat

ersatz wrote: »

This is the key thing on Lowe, he just hasn't delivered in attack in any way that can mitigate his obvious deficiencies in defence. A big part of his game for Leinster is his work around the field, rucking and support, and his aggression with the ball and ability to beat defenders. He's not shone in any of those areas in green.

none of our back three have shown much in attack (im not counting the italy game)

however with Lowe you do get that ability to beat the first defender and to throw a nice offload.. which he has done to good effect... see sextons break against scotland. Lowe is more comfortable doing things out other back options arent comfortable doing, and unfortunately his defensive problems have overshadowed this.

hopefully there is a summer test tour where he can get to work on those deficiencies

sebdavis

ersatz wrote: »

This is the key thing on Lowe, he just hasn't delivered in attack in any way that can mitigate his obvious deficiencies in defence. A big part of his game for Leinster is his work around the field, rucking and support, and his aggression with the ball and ability to beat defenders. He's not shone in any of those areas in green.

Yet has made the most metres across all the teams.....

kilns

wittycynic wrote: »

Earls is Ireland's second highest try scorer of all time, has actually scored in this tournament, and has played better than Lowe throughout. Hardly to be derided as not offering "much going forward". If Lowe is a top attacker, we've seen little evidence of it in Green, or even that he should be ahead of Earls.

Oh come on, most can agree he doesnt offer as much going forward as he used to, he is a hard worker and good chaser and good defensively but he doesnt scare teams, and he is 33 ffs.

irishbucsfan

Bluwave wrote: »

Henderson has been excellent, I think he has outplayed Ryan, but I think Beirne had played better than both of them, and if I don’t think any more than 3 of our starting 15 tomo would make that England starting team.

Maybe someone has a stormer or a nightmare tomo and that view changes, and maybe it’s being pessimistic about some Irish performances but that’s how I see it.

You can argue the toss about two or three more players, but the reality is that iin the majority of positions England have superior players.

Ah in fairness, selecting a fantasy 15 based on your opinion is not really that shocking or much of a revelation to anyone else.

The reality is we do actually have good players across the team. The backs haven't been producing but the forwards absolutely have and I wouldn't necessarily be convinced the backs haven't been producing because the quality isn't there.

Picking Itoje as one of two locks in a fantasy 15 completely shows up how useless that kind of exercise is, because Ireland have 3 players in that position at the moment that most teams in the competition would be very happy to take.




I think there's a strong chance we will beat England playing a very narrowly focused brand of rugby, and that will leave people more unhappy than if we had lost to them playing a more open style. I think that probably just highlights the difference in priorities between people whose job it is to win rugby matches and people whose hobby it is to watch them.

wittycynic

kilns wrote: »

Oh come on, most can agree he doesnt offer as much going forward as he used to, he is a hard worker and good chaser and good defensively but he doesnt scare teams, and he is 33 ffs.

Completely agree he's not the threat he was. The problem is none of our other wingers have demonstrated they are any more or a threat than he is, and in most cases have demonstrated less threat. The coaching team isn't up to scratch and I hope new one will be able to realise the talent at our disposal. Sadly, I don't expect we'll get a better one for a while.

ersatz

sydthebeat wrote: »

none of our back three have shown much in attack (im not counting the italy game)

however with Lowe you do get that ability to beat the first defender and to throw a nice offload.. which he has done to good effect... see sextons break against scotland. Lowe is more comfortable doing things out other back options arent comfortable doing, and unfortunately his defensive problems have overshadowed this.

hopefully there is a summer test tour where he can get to work on those deficiencies

He had that nice interchange with Park up the wing also, so yes, he hasn't brought nothing but there have been a couple of uncharacteristic failures in attack, bundled into touch and failing to beat the last tackle twice where he might have scored in blue. He's up against better players and better organised defences and he hasn't scored as often as I expected him to, even in situations where he might have. All that said he had an excellent game on his debut against Wales in Autumn, he defended well enough, carried very well (made another break with an offload to Sexton in the Welsh 22) and scored a smart powerful try...but since then I haven't seen enough to balance against his mistakes.

ersatz

sebdavis wrote: »

Yet has made the most metres across all the teams.....

He's fielding a lot of ball and bringing it back up field.

kilns

he was very unlucky not to score that try against France, which could have had changed the whole outcome of that game

Then add in the POM madness and we could have been going for a grandslam this weekend

small margins...:D

Dubinusa

molloyjh wrote: »

That was sarcasm. Lots and lots of sarcasm.

That said I think both Paul and Venjur have a point. We simply haven't been able to utilise Lowes strengths in any way and so all we've seen are his glaring weaknesses. He has rightly been dropped, but if he was tearing things up going forward the conversation would probably be somewhat different. Would it lead to everyone declaring him the Messiah and ignoring his weaknesses? No. But it would shift the conversation in terms of whether people were willing to forgive the odd defensive error as a trade off for what he brings going forward. When he's bringing very little going forward there isnt really a trade off at all. And that is an Ireland issue more so than a James Lowe issue.

That may be true. It's really strange that he has been so exposed. More so than Stockdale, in that we knew that Stockdale had problems due to Ulster not being dominant. It was clear to see. Lowe, on the other hand was getting cakewalks weekly with Leinster and he wasn't really exposed. Now, it's plain to see, that Lowe is an incomplete player. My biggest concern is how poor Lowe is . I've rewatched the Wales and France matches and it's glaring.

kilns

Dubinusa wrote: »

That may be true. It's really strange that he has been so exposed. More so than Stockdale, in that we knew that Stockdale had problems due to Ulster not being dominant. It was clear to see. Lowe, on the other hand was getting cakewalks weekly with Leinster and he wasn't really exposed. Now, it's plain to see, that Lowe is an incomplete player. My biggest concern is how poor Lowe is . I've rewatched the Wales and France matches and it's glaring.

Yes he has been poor defensively and no definsive coach can account for missed tackles like that but I wonder was it being addressed by Easterbury and worked on with Lowe because overall our defence has been pretty poor, you just have to look at how passive we are compared to France and England and how much yards a simple pass along the backline can make (see Scotland last week). I really think our wide out defence will be exposed again this weekend by England

My point being, aswell as Catt being under pressure I think Easterbury should be under pressure too, as our defence is not what it used to be and our line out has suddenly improved dramatically since he has stopped being forwards coach.

Dubinusa

The summer tour, if it happens could be a blessing for Lowe. But, I reckon the otherside of the coin, it could be a blessing for Larmour or Balacoune. People forget that Larmour is our most elusive player. He beats the 1st man and sometimes the 2nd and 3rd. If he fixes his problems under the high ball he should be the favorite going forward. A summer tour would also be great to blood Balacoune. Lowe is assured of nothing! There's competition there and there's going to be more coming down the pike. I fully expect Stockdale to take the 11 shirt. His deficiencies are not as big as Lowe's. Lowe has a tremendous amount of work to do. Playing for Leinster over the next few weeks should be a starting point for him.

molloyjh

kilns wrote: »

Yes he has been poor defensively and no definsive coach can account for missed tackles like that but I wonder was it being addressed by Easterbury and worked on with Lowe because overall our defence has been pretty poor, you just have to look at how passive we are compared to France and England and how much yards a simple pass along the backline can make (see Scotland last week). I really think our wide out defence will be exposed again this weekend by England

My point being, aswell as Catt being under pressure I think Easterbury should be under pressure too, as our defence is not what it used to be and our line out has suddenly improved dramatically since he has stopped being forwards coach.

To be fair to Easterby, our line out was fine before he started double jobbing.

kilns

molloyjh wrote: »

To be fair to Easterby, our line out was fine before he started double jobbing.

Farrell missed a trick getting the wrong mate in, when he was available. Would love to have seen Edwards as defence coach for Ireland

Probably out of our budget though!