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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen
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The talent pool is pretty good. I think we're a year or so away from realising how good.0
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Alot of the talent is from 1999 + (we have alot of talent from the 1996-1998 groups dont get me wrong, but the depth of talent in the 1999+ groups is as large as ive ever seen) so it might take a season or so for us to realise just how good it really is.0
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We dont know how good Farrell is yet. And even if he were great, he won't be able to do much with limited resources.
Ireland have no stand out loosehead, little more than potential at hooker, no destructive ball carrier in the back row (or at all arguably), no clear replacements at 9 or 10 and limited centre options which was starkly highlighted last month.
Sure we have promising guys coming through, but we've often seen promise not translate. Theres no guarantee that the guys we are all looking to will be able to deliver at Test level.
I really think people need to reassess their expectations for the next few years.
No one is trying to set expectations, all we want is for us to do our best with the controllables like mentality, organization etc. The two QF's we played in the last 2 RWC's we clearly werent mentally ready for and it showed in the first 30 mins when we were blown into next week. Weather your talented or not that is not an excuss for lack of preparation, if the team isnt prepared we wont be beating NZL or France in a QF no matter how talented our team is and with Scotland & SA in the pool we may not even advance if were not careful.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »We have a wealth of talent at loosehead. They’ve not been needed yet because they’re behind one of the best we’ve ever had and he’s not finished yet.
We’ve arguably as much depth at back row as anyone in the world. A destructive ball carrier is not a necessity for a world class back row.
We’ve loads of options going forward at 9. No idea what the supposed problem is there. JGP had some great moments surrounded by poor performances last month.
10 is the unsolved question currently but there are more potential answers to that question than we’ve ever had. It would be extremely surprising if that is left unanswered by 2023. Were miles away from the days of Paddy Wallace as 10 cover.
There’s huge talent in Ireland. We’re not the best in the world at every position but no team ever has been and that’s nowhere near necessary to be successful. South Africa are clear examples of that.
Wealth of talent at LH is a bit much?
Ed Byrne isn't up to it internationally
Kilcoyne is ok, but getting on
EOS is unproven
I would go as far as to say it's an area of weakness0 -
Paul Smeenus wrote: »Or a better coach.
It might help with the team selections.
I certainly would prefer better specialist coaches.
Ireland had world class players at 5,6,7,8 & 13 in 2011
Ireland had world class players at 9,10, 5,7 & 8 in 2015
2023? 3 (hopefully), 5 & 13.
Depressingly Ireland will trudge on with the same 9&10 from the 2011 WC during the 2021 6N.0 -
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It might help with the team selections.
I certainly would prefer better specialist coaches.
Ireland had world class players at 5,6,7,8 & 13 in 2011
Ireland had world class players at 9,10, 5,7 & 8 in 2015
2023? 3 (hopefully), 5 & 13.
Depressingly Ireland will trudge on with the same 9&10 from the 2011 WC during the 2021 6N.
Predicting who will be world class 3 years from now is pointless.0 -
:pac:
ok0 -
Wealth of talent at LH is a bit much?
Ed Byrne isn't up to it internationally
Kilcoyne is ok, but getting on
EOS is unproven
I would go as far as to say it's an area of weakness
When you compare it to a couple of seasons ago, say 2018, when you had Healy, McGrath and Kilcoyne as the top three, it's a colossal drop in quality.0 -
Former Former Former wrote: »When you compare it to a couple of seasons ago, say 2018, when you had Healy, McGrath and Kilcoyne as the top three, it's a colossal drop in quality.
2 of those 3 had a colossal drop in form within 4-5 months. Those players are still available (McGrath & Kilcoyne) but if they arent going to perform there isnt much a coach can do, McGrath cant even get ahead of O'Sullivan at Ulster atm.0 -
Josh Wycherly could be a lad that stakes a claim in the next year or so. Obviously, he's still learning and is young, but he is the best prospect we have imo. Milne is almost certainly getting a professional contract next season. He's also inexperienced and young, but is a possibility. I don't think he's as good a prospect as Wycherly.
Their development will be good to watch. Lots of potential.
The age profile of Kilcoyne is not great either. I think he's 32? He'll be 35 at the next rwc.
Ed Byrne imo, is not at the level needed. He's a decent player!
EOS has the best chance imo. He's been around for a couple of seasons and I think is a very good lh.
Otherwise.... we're mired in mediocrity.
I think our situation hooker will be interesting to watch. Herring is the incumbent and deservedly so. Heffernan is a good player and I think he's reached his ceiling.
Kelleher is a work in progress. I don't think he's at the level required yet. If his darts can be fixed he could be our hooker for the rwc.
Hooker is still an area of weakness though. I was hoping to see DTM break in at Connacht. He's a lad who was very impressive for the u20's.
Only 30 or so odd matches to find our best options.0 -
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We're far better than the absolutely ****e we served up against Georgia or in the first half against Scotland. Not that my opinion matters a toss but I don't have much faith in Farrell, haven't seen anything from the team that shows we've moved onto playing a different way than what has failed badly since the start of 2019.
I don't think we're that well stocked at LH but playing Bealham there when someone like EOS has been going really well for over a year, against fupping Georgia, was such a dreadful selection.0 -
The grass does always seem.to be greener. When we have heaslip,ferris,o brien people where upset because we didn't have a ball hog. Now we need more ball carriers. A good coach will set up a team to play around their strengths we don't need a specific type of back row or anything else just talented players0
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Josh Wycherly could be a lad that stakes a claim in the next year or so. Obviously, he's still learning and is young, but he is the best prospect we have imo. Milne is almost certainly getting a professional contract next season. He's also inexperienced and young, but is a possibility. I don't think he's as good a prospect as Wycherly.
Their development will be good to watch. Lots of potential.
The age profile of Kilcoyne is not great either. I think he's 32? He'll be 35 at the next rwc.
Ed Byrne imo, is not at the level needed. He's a decent player!
EOS has the best chance imo. He's been around for a couple of seasons and I think is a very good lh.
Otherwise.... we're mired in mediocrity.
I think our situation hooker will be interesting to watch. Herring is the incumbent and deservedly so. Heffernan is a good player and I think he's reached his ceiling.
Kelleher is a work in progress. I don't think he's at the level required yet. If his darts can be fixed he could be our hooker for the rwc.
Hooker is still an area of weakness though. I was hoping to see DTM break in at Connacht. He's a lad who was very impressive for the u20's.
Only 30 or so odd matches to find our best options.
Wycherley and Milne are both top prospects but I think Wycherley will break through first as I think he is the best all round LH atm whereas Milne probably needs to learn abit more about the dark arts.
LH and HK have alot of potential long term but right now its abit meh, Kelleher has alot of potential but really needs to improve aspects of his game but if he can do that he will go far. You also have Dan Sheehan and like you said DTM and afew others who ill need to see how they get on for their province first.0 -
Wealth of talent at LH is a bit much?
Ed Byrne isn't up to it internationally
Kilcoyne is ok, but getting on
EOS is unproven
I would go as far as to say it's an area of weakness
Cian Healy as well. Right now, we have him and Kilcoyne.
In the future we have EOS, Byrne (no idea why he’s “not up to it” but EOS is “unproven”) and more even.
I’m not saying these are guys who would be dominant today against top international scrums, I’m saying there’s plenty of talent there to work with. They’ll actually need top level exposure to get there of course.
And that’s completely forgetting that on the other side of the scrum we have Porter and Furlong which is about as good as anyone in the world, in a much more important position.0 -
Can the real Jack McGrath please stand up?0
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Former Former Former wrote: »When you compare it to a couple of seasons ago, say 2018, when you had Healy, McGrath and Kilcoyne as the top three, it's a colossal drop in quality.
We actually have no idea if it is, because all of those three guys are still available and playing and we haven’t yet turned to looking to develop their replacements, because there’s no need to rush it. There’s more than enough potential of producing one or two top class looseheads from guys already playing at the provinces. And down in Munster you have one of the best scrum coaches in the world so I wouldn’t put it past them producing something special out of someone like Josh Wycherley either.0 -
Can the real Jack McGrath please stand up?
How is Jack doing? I didn’t think he was bad in the ulster games I’ve seen, but I didn’t put a player cam on him either.
Sometimes I think a player just falls out of fashion. EOS did lots of ball carrying when he came on for Ireland. That was great to see but I think that falls away when players start focusing on improving certain niche aspects of their game.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »Wycherley and Milne are both top prospects but I think Wycherley will break through first as I think he is the best all round LH atm whereas Milne probably needs to learn abit more about the dark arts.
LH and HK have alot of potential long term but right now its abit meh, Kelleher has alot of potential but really needs to improve aspects of his game but if he can do that he will go far. You also have Dan Sheehan and like you said DTM and afew others who ill need to see how they get on for their province first.
Jeremy loughman too!!
Isnt there a irish prop that plays for crusaders?0 -
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irishbucsfan wrote: »We have a wealth of talent at loosehead. They’ve not been needed yet because they’re behind one of the best we’ve ever had and he’s not finished yet.
We’ve arguably as much depth at back row as anyone in the world. A destructive ball carrier is not a necessity for a world class back row.
We’ve loads of options going forward at 9. No idea what the supposed problem is there. JGP had some great moments surrounded by poor performances last month.
10 is the unsolved question currently but there are more potential answers to that question than we’ve ever had. It would be extremely surprising if that is left unanswered by 2023. Were miles away from the days of Paddy Wallace as 10 cover.
There’s huge talent in Ireland. We’re not the best in the world at every position but no team ever has been and that’s nowhere near necessary to be successful. South Africa are clear examples of that.
Where exactly is this wealth of talent at LH? Healy is a long way off his peak and yet there isn't a single LH in the country that has been able to take the jersey off him. Who is Test quality? Ed Byrne? I haven't seen that yet. EOS? That also remains to be seen.
My point on destructive carrier was probably more about the lack of destructive carriers in the pack more so than the back row. We just generally have them in the back row. That doesnt need to be an issue depending on how we play but our current back row is light years behind where it has been in the past in that regard.
We also have loads of options at 9, but how many fare well when compared to 9s in the top 4 sides in the world? Having lots of options does not equate to having lots of options of the requisite quality.
Saying we're miles away from having Paddy Wallace as 10 cover is def not any form of ringing endorsement of where we find ourselves. Circumstances have left us shorter than we ideally would be and I wouldn't be critical of the IRFU around it, but the simple fact is that we have no Test quality 10 waiting in the wings. We have a few guys with some promise and a lot left to prove.
This isnt about being the best in every position. Its about having enough talent in the squad to be comparable to the best sides overall. We have too many areas where that isnt the case right now and absolutely no guarantee that this will change. A lot can happen in 2 1/2 years, but where we stand right now isnt exactly a position of strength. Some or all of those guys with promise might turn it into something meaningful before the RWC, but we're left hoping too many donat this stage for my liking.0 -
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »Oli Jager. But dont see him being involved with Ireland. Been in New Zealand since finishing school about 7 years or so at this stage. played virtually all his adult rugby in NZ.
Oli has 22 super rugby caps in 4 seasons... played on average 125 mins per season...
hes a good squad player for the crusaders, and probably a starter for canterbury going forward, but hes not shown anything at all yet to suggest hes test level0 -
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Not saying he is and dont think he will be. More was answering stan question about a prop being in NZ...sydthebeat wrote: »Oli has 22 super rugby caps in 4 seasons... played on average 125 mins per season...
hes a good squad player for the crusaders, and probably a starter for canterbury going forward, but hes not shown anything at all yet to suggest hes test level0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Not saying he is and dont think he will be. More was answering stan question about a prop being in NZ...
yeah, sorry, i was just agreeing with you and fleshing out your answer a bit.0 -
Well I'd say we're better off than England to be honest.
Maybe, but looking at a single position isnt really the point I'm making. Its the number of positions where we are waiting on someone to come through or prove themselves that is. Few teams can have top quality talent from 1 to 15. There will always be areas of relative strength and weakness. We just have too many of the latter right now IMO.
It is worth noting there are areas of strength too. As IBF pointed out we have one of the best group of THs going. Furlong and Porter are superb and that is def an area of strength. I also think lock is starting to look better than it has in a while. Ryan and Henderson are known, but Baird has delivered every time so far, including what I thought was a very impressive performance vs Saracens.
And finally we have a back 3 that I think is genuinely very threatening. Lowe, Larmour and Stockdale are all excellent attacking options. Keenan and Conway are really good options too with Daly having real potential. I've kind of given up on Addison being fit, but if he were to come back he'd add massively to that group. Balacoune too could add a lot.
But if you're unsure of a handful of positions as we are right now that's not a good place to be in.0 -
Yes all of those players have bags of potential. Why aren't they racing to replace Cian Healy? Well I don't actually know but I'd guess it's probably because he's still extremely good. Maybe if your bigger priority is establishing a new hooker in the side you don't want to put an inexperienced loosehead beside him and risk experienced opposition tightheads having a field day.Where exactly is this wealth of talent at LH? Healy is a long way off his peak and yet there isn't a single LH in the country that has been able to take the jersey off him. Who is Test quality? Ed Byrne? I haven't seen that yet. EOS? That also remains to be seen.
No, I really don't think it is light years behind where it has been. I actually think its actually potentially a lot better than it has been most years. We actually have multiple 7s to choose from, remember back when we were lucky if we had 1 international standard 7? The English have similar depth in the back row, but we're extremely well stocked there for the future.My point on destructive carrier was probably more about the lack of destructive carriers in the pack more so than the back row. We just generally have them in the back row. That doesnt need to be an issue depending on how we play but our current back row is light years behind where it has been in the past in that regard.
I think they fare pretty well. Especially if Murray can re-establish himself at his best which the competition from JGP will hopefully do. Murray/JGP is in theory as good a starting/sub combo as we've had if both play to their potential.We also have loads of options at 9, but how many fare well when compared to 9s in the top 4 sides in the world? Having lots of options does not equate to having lots of options of the requisite quality.
Yes, 10 is the main question. It's the biggest short term concern. But there's more than enough time to answer that question and lots of potential answers. We may not produce someone as good as Sexton, but we should be able to produce some international calibre players there. Remember just how much Sexton came on in 2008-2009.Saying we're miles away from having Paddy Wallace as 10 cover is def not any form of ringing endorsement of where we find ourselves. Circumstances have left us shorter than we ideally would be and I wouldn't be critical of the IRFU around it, but the simple fact is that we have no Test quality 10 waiting in the wings. We have a few guys with some promise and a lot left to prove.
I think its absolutely a position of relative strength in comparison to nearly every other side in the 6 Nations (England are as good as I've ever seen them in that regard). And not only is it currently in a decent place, there's huge potential to improve it in many positions, you could pick 2 XVs of players in Ireland from all the provinces who were not on the radar in 2019 who have potential to be there in 2023.This isnt about being the best in every position. Its about having enough talent in the squad to be comparable to the best sides overall. We have too many areas where that isnt the case right now and absolutely no guarantee that this will change. A lot can happen in 2 1/2 years, but where we stand right now isnt exactly a position of strength. Some or all of those guys with promise might turn it into something meaningful before the RWC, but we're left hoping too many donat this stage for my liking.
Look at how quickly these guys are capable of coming through and looking up to international level (Keenan/Connors being the latest). To be writing off the potential of these guys is just mad to me. There's so many potential top internationals pushing their way through at the moment, more than I ever remember.0 -
Where exactly is this wealth of talent at LH? Healy is a long way off his peak and yet there isn't a single LH in the country that has been able to take the jersey off him. Who is Test quality? Ed Byrne? I haven't seen that yet. EOS? That also remains to be seen.
My point on destructive carrier was probably more about the lack of destructive carriers in the pack more so than the back row. We just generally have them in the back row. That doesnt need to be an issue depending on how we play but our current back row is light years behind where it has been in the past in that regard.
We also have loads of options at 9, but how many fare well when compared to 9s in the top 4 sides in the world? Having lots of options does not equate to having lots of options of the requisite quality.
Saying we're miles away from having Paddy Wallace as 10 cover is def not any form of ringing endorsement of where we find ourselves. Circumstances have left us shorter than we ideally would be and I wouldn't be critical of the IRFU around it, but the simple fact is that we have no Test quality 10 waiting in the wings. We have a few guys with some promise and a lot left to prove.
This isnt about being the best in every position. Its about having enough talent in the squad to be comparable to the best sides overall. We have too many areas where that isnt the case right now and absolutely no guarantee that this will change. A lot can happen in 2 1/2 years, but where we stand right now isnt exactly a position of strength. Some or all of those guys with promise might turn it into something meaningful before the RWC, but we're left hoping too many donat this stage for my liking.
We have the likes of Henderson and Ryan who are pretty destructive carriers when on form.
Murray and Coomey with Casey for instance are pretty good options, but once again someone else’s grass is always greener and the only way some on here will rate our players is when they retire, then they were amazing.
We had enough talent to beat Japan but got totally school because we weren’t prepared, same with Argentina in 2015. We always appear to be missing the point every World Cup, if the side isn’t prepared they are prepared to fail. You can always be organized you can prepare the team mentally as best you can get in both world cups we were a million miles off. Thankfully on this occasion the IRFU saw through all the bull**** and highlighted the biggest issue so hopefully atleast in 2023 we’ll be prepared atleast.
It isn’t about where we stand right now, it’s about where we’ll stand in 2.5 years time.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »We have the likes of Henderson and Ryan who are pretty destructive carriers when on form.
Murray and Coomey with Casey for instance are pretty good options, but once again someone else’s grass is always greener and the only way some on here will rate our players is when they retire, then they were amazing.
We had enough talent to beat Japan but got totally school because we weren’t prepared, same with Argentina in 2015. We always appear to be missing the point every World Cup, if the side isn’t prepared they are prepared to fail. You can always be organized you can prepare the team mentally as best you can get in both world cups we were a million miles off. Thankfully on this occasion the IRFU saw through all the bull**** and highlighted the biggest issue so hopefully atleast in 2023 we’ll be prepared atleast.
It isn’t about where we stand right now, it’s about where we’ll stand in 2.5 years time.
The heat at the Japan game was unmerciful though.
Once we lost our mojo it was never coming back with that weather, as we were going to be dealing with an onslaught against them and our own fitness with 10 to go so we needed a proper lead!
Awful time! don't think I have ever been as miserable leaving a game, and I include the AISF v Cork in 2010 in that. Just legged it from the stadium with no acknowledgement of what had just occurred.
There was a moment where Best knocked on after 24min when it was 12-3 to us after Kearney's try. The momentum completely shifted.
We score on that passage, cos we were killing them, and it's at least 15-3 going in at HT.
Instead they scored that penalty iirc and then a gimme caused by bad positioning just before HT and we go in 12-9! We then go scoreless for the rest of the game.
You literally could feel the momentum shift and the dread seep into the stadium from an Irish POV when Best knocked on.
As has been stated above, the dread and pressure seeps in all too easily but, it's 3 years out from the RWC that we should be hosting, so let's not worry. Our treatment of world cup cycles is uniquely Irish. It really needs to stop.0 -
BonnieSituation wrote: »The heat at the Japan game was unmerciful though.
Once we lost our mojo it was never coming back with that weather, as we were going to be dealing with an onslaught against them and our own fitness with 10 to go so we needed a proper lead!
Awful time! don't think I have ever been as miserable leaving a game, and I include the AISF v Cork in 2010 in that. Just legged it from the stadium with no acknowledgement of what had just occurred.
There was a moment where Best knocked on after 24min when it was 12-3 to us after Kearney's try. The momentum completely shifted.
We score on that passage, cos we were killing them, and it's at least 15-3 going in at HT.
Instead they scored that penalty iirc and then a gimme caused by bad positioning just before HT and we go in 12-9! We then go scoreless for the rest of the game.
You literally could feel the momentum shift and the dread seep into the stadium from an Irish POV when Best knocked on.
As has been stated above, the dread and pressure seeps in all too easily but, it's 3 years out from the RWC that we should be hosting, so let's not worry. Our treatment of world cup cycles is uniquely Irish. It really needs to stop.
Why do u feel Ireland should be hosting the next World Cup?0 -
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irishbucsfan wrote: »Yes all of those players have bags of potential. Why aren't they racing to replace Cian Healy? Well I don't actually know but I'd guess it's probably because he's still extremely good. Maybe if your bigger priority is establishing a new hooker in the side you don't want to put an inexperienced loosehead beside him and risk experienced opposition tightheads having a field day.
But we haven't been playing those guys at LH when Herring has been starting, so I really don't think the "bringing through an inexperienced hooker" line actually stacks up when you look at what has actually happened.
Also, Healy hasn't been "extremely good". He's been pretty good, but clearly a long, long way from his best. It is at exactly this stage that we need to have someone else demanding to start ahead of him (or at least coming close to demanding to start), otherwise we are going to continue to rely on him as his ability drops even further. We don't have anyone who looks ready to take over though. We have a coupleof players who might, but we aren't really sure. That's not a great position to be in.irishbucsfan wrote: »No, I really don't think it is light years behind where it has been. I actually think its actually potentially a lot better than it has been most years. We actually have multiple 7s to choose from, remember back when we were lucky if we had 1 international standard 7? The English have similar depth in the back row, but we're extremely well stocked there for the future.
I think you missed the "in that regard" part, i.e. in terms of ball carrying. We traditionally had our destructive carriers in the back row. We no longer have any there. As I said, that doesn't need to be an issue, but it is still worth discussing because it ay become an issue.irishbucsfan wrote: »I think they fare pretty well. Especially if Murray can re-establish himself at his best which the competition from JGP will hopefully do. Murray/JGP is in theory as good a starting/sub combo as we've had if both play to their potential.
I'm not overly concerned with 9 in itself. We've rarely had great scrum halves anyway, for whatever reason. And as I mentioned previously, all sides will have relative strengths and weaknesses. A servicable 9 is all we really need. And we pretty much have that, as you said. I think the dip in quality there just forms part of the wider conversation rather than being an issue in and of itself.irishbucsfan wrote: »Yes, 10 is the main question. It's the biggest short term concern. But there's more than enough time to answer that question and lots of potential answers. We may not produce someone as good as Sexton, but we should be able to produce some international calibre players there. Remember just how much Sexton came on in 2008-2009.
Agree for the most part on this. However we've seen how potential can often not deliver. Sexton has longer in him than many give him credit for, but we also need to see any replacement get a good run in to the RWC in order to bed in and solidify their position. We have time to make that happen, but at this stage we have no clear candidate. We are utterly dependent on potential. Which isn't an issue necissarily when looking at the position in isolation, but again the point is re the wider picture of being dependent on unproven potential in a number of areas.irishbucsfan wrote: »I think its absolutely a position of relative strength in comparison to nearly every other side in the 6 Nations (England are as good as I've ever seen them in that regard). And not only is it currently in a decent place, there's huge potential to improve it in many positions, you could pick 2 XVs of players in Ireland from all the provinces who were not on the radar in 2019 who have potential to be there in 2023.
Look at how quickly these guys are capable of coming through and looking up to international level (Keenan/Connors being the latest). To be writing off the potential of these guys is just mad to me. There's so many potential top internationals pushing their way through at the moment, more than I ever remember.
I'm in no way writing off potential. I've clearly said that they may come good. My point is we are dependent on a number of them coming good in multiple positions, and that's just in terms of our starting XV. We need to consider depth beyond that too. Being so dependent on unproven potential is not a positive place to be. It leaves us hostage to fortune in the main. What if Ben Healy gets injured, Joey continues with his injury woes and Harry Byrne becomes our only Test 10 heading to the RWC? What if we find that Ed Byrne has reached his ceiling and that EOS is a decent LH at Test level, but little more? Who starts for us and who benches? What is our LH depth chart like quality wise?
I'm not setting out to be deliberately negative here. Lord knows I've had a fairly positive outlook in the main over the years and have had some heated disagreements with people over the criticisms levelled at the Irish team. We've had an unprecedented run over the last number of years with some incredibly impressive squads that would rival any Test team out there. We had been punching above our weight. Right now we have a talented squad, but not one that compares as favourably to other top tier sides in the same way as in recent times. Part of that is improvements in some countries, specifically France and South Africa (not always through their playing personnel of course). But part of it is in a drop off in quality on our end too. And that's okay. Every side goes through those kinds of peaks and troughs. Maybe we can get back there for 2023, but maybe we'll need to wait a little longer. It's certainly not a fait accompli by any means one way or the other.0
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