Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

.ak

kilns wrote: »

he was very unlucky not to score that try against France, which could have had changed the whole outcome of that game

Then add in the POM madness and we could have been going for a grandslam this weekend

small margins...:D

Yeah, we'd very much be in the realms of Wales territory - going into a final weekend looking for a GS, undeservedly. (Sorry PB!!)

Sure, great, but it'd really be papering over the cracks in a big way.

sebdavis

molloyjh wrote: »

To be fair to Easterby, our line out was fine before he started double jobbing.

Was it? having the bean pole that was Toner in it covered up a lot of cracks. I can't remember in the WC but was it not shaky?

I am not having a go, I can't remember us having an incredible line out. We seemed to require Toner & Best in full form or it had serious malfunctions if I recollect.

Since POC came in we seem to have made a massive improvement.

Sanjuro

sebdavis wrote: »

Was it? having the bean pole that was Toner in it covered up a lot of cracks. I can't remember in the WC but was it not shaky?

I am not having a go, I can't remember us having an incredible line out. We seemed to require Toner & Best in full form or it had serious malfunctions if I recollect.

Since POC came in we seem to have made a massive improvement.

Yeah, I can remember people yelling to have Big Dev replaced and then immediately calling for him to be reinstated when the lineout began to misfire.

kilns

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, we'd very much be in the realms of Wales territory - going into a final weekend looking for a GS, undeservedly. (Sorry PB!!)

Sure, great, but it'd really be papering over the cracks in a big way.

I agree but it just goes to show how fine the margins are, a few tweaks here and there, mostly on the coaching side of things and we are not far off

Wales could have easily been going to Italy and struggling but look at them now

sebdavis

ersatz wrote: »

He had that nice interchange with Park up the wing also, so yes, he hasn't brought nothing but there have been a couple of uncharacteristic failures in attack, bundled into touch and failing to beat the last tackle twice where he might have scored in blue. He's up against better players and better organised defences and he hasn't scored as often as I expected him to, even in situations where he might have. All that said he had an excellent game on his debut against Wales in Autumn, he defended well enough, carried very well (made another break with an offload to Sexton in the Welsh 22) and scored a smart powerful try...but since then I haven't seen enough to balance against his mistakes.

I question this. He plays against the Welsh & Scottish players week in week out. Yes a couple of them are in France/England but the majority are the same players. In a Leinster jersey he looks a level above them, similar to a lot of the Irish players in Pro14.

Stick them into an Ireland jersey and since 2019 they look inferior players. Saying international is a step up is correct but we should not be seeing such a huge fall off from our players who seem to regress from club to international. This is not just Lowe but other players like RIngrose, JGP, Earls etc.

.ak

sebdavis wrote: »

I question this. He plays against the Welsh & Scottish players week in week out. Yes a couple of them are in France/England but the majority are the same players. In a Leinster jersey he looks a level above them, similar to a lot of the Irish players in Pro14.

Stick them into an Ireland jersey and since 2019 they look inferior players. Saying international is a step up is correct but we should not be seeing such a huge fall off from our players who seem to regress from club to international. This is not just Lowe but other players like RIngrose, JGP, Earls etc.

Eh what?

Ringrose has been excellent. 1st choice centre for a long time now.

The Inbetween is mine

kilns wrote: »

Its far from a highly competitive position in Ireland, on the other wing is Earls who is not international standard any more but is still the best we have, says it all

So you're saying we have a has-been & a never-will-be .. I guess you're half right anyways

Former Former Former

sebdavis wrote: »

I question this. He plays against the Welsh & Scottish players week in week out. Yes a couple of them are in France/England but the majority are the same players. In a Leinster jersey he looks a level above them, similar to a lot of the Irish players in Pro14.

Stick them into an Ireland jersey and since 2019 they look inferior players. Saying international is a step up is correct but we should not be seeing such a huge fall off from our players who seem to regress from club to international. This is not just Lowe but other players like RIngrose, JGP, Earls etc.

The difference is not only the step up from provincial to international, but also the fact that Lowe is playing for (arguably) the best club in Europe. He gets a platform that very few others do.

If you stuck him in the Dragons or Edinburgh, would he still look as amazing?

bayern

.ak wrote: »

Eh what?

Ringrose has been excellent. 1st choice centre for a long time now.

Ringrose was Irish player of the year in 2020 as voted by his fellow players.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/17/ringrose-and-moloney-win-player-of-the-year-awards/#:~:text=Garry%20Ringrose%20and%20Cliodhna%20Moloney,broadcast%20on%20Virgin%20Media%20Two.

penybont exile

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, we'd very much be in the realms of Wales territory - going into a final weekend looking for a GS, undeservedly. (Sorry PB!!)

Sure, great, but it'd really be papering over the cracks in a big way.

If I'm toasting an 'undeserved' GS tomorrow night .... trust me .... I'll be a very happy boy!

penybont exile

bayern wrote: »

Ringrose was Irish player of the year in 2020 as voted by his fellow players.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/17/ringrose-and-moloney-win-player-of-the-year-awards/#:~:text=Garry%20Ringrose%20and%20Cliodhna%20Moloney,broadcast%20on%20Virgin%20Media%20Two.

IMO opinion Ringrose has not kicked on from his early promise (and has regressed since the WC)

He's become just another cog in what has become a fairly dysfunctional back line.

Do the Ireland backs look capable of scoring tries like France did against England (Penaud) or Wales did against Scotland (L Williams)?

thomas 123

penybont exile wrote: »

IMO opinion Ringrose has not kicked on from his early promise (and has regressed since the WC)

He's become just another cog in what has become a fairly dysfunctional back line.

Do the Ireland backs look capable of scoring tries like France did against England (Penaud) or Wales did against Scotland (L Williams)?

I would agree, for a fella who is supposed to be creative etc he does not offer much in midfield.

That being said it’s hard to replace him as Aki, Farrell, McClosky are bosh merchants like Hendshaw.

Digifriendly

I may be controversial here but I think Henshaw/Ringrose is not the best centre combination as both are a bit too similar. I do not see Henshaw as a bosh merchant. He's too subtle for that. Glad to see Aki in for tomorrow as I think he will complement Henshaw more.

salmocab

Dubinusa wrote: »

That may be true. It's really strange that he has been so exposed. More so than Stockdale, in that we knew that Stockdale had problems due to Ulster not being dominant. It was clear to see. Lowe, on the other hand was getting cakewalks weekly with Leinster and he wasn't really exposed. Now, it's plain to see, that Lowe is an incomplete player. My biggest concern is how poor Lowe is . I've rewatched the Wales and France matches and it's glaring.

This cake walk thing is bollox, stuff like this is mentioned about Leinster players constantly. JGP or Mc Grath get arm chair rides now Lowe has a cake walk for Leinster. These guys are in the Leinster team for a good reason Leinster have a pile of talented players and aren’t picking some because it’ll be handy for them they’re being picked because they’ll make it handier by being there. Lowe isn’t some pro 14 dirt tracker he plays top European teams and has been exposed to some of the very best players in the world.

Neil3030

penybont exile wrote: »

IMO opinion Ringrose has not kicked on from his early promise (and has regressed since the WC)

He's become just another cog in what has become a fairly dysfunctional back line.

Do the Ireland backs look capable of scoring tries like France did against England (Penaud) or Wales did against Scotland (L Williams)?

Even at our peak under Schmidt, there were certain types of tries that we simply couldn't produce, unless it were a game against Tier 2 opposition. I.e., the off-the-cuff, score from nothing.

With our best 10 making short work of his 30s, such scores will be even more elusive. Henshaw also a major factor; great and all as he is at what he does, he lacks the dynamism and awareness to contribute much in a fluid attack.

Dubinusa

salmocab wrote: »

This cake walk thing is bollox, stuff like this is mentioned about Leinster players constantly. JGP or Mc Grath get arm chair rides now Lowe has a cake walk for Leinster. These guys are in the Leinster team for a good reason Leinster have a pile of talented players and aren’t picking some because it’ll be handy for them they’re being picked because they’ll make it handier by being there. Lowe isn’t some pro 14 dirt tracker he plays top European teams and has been exposed to some of the very best players in the world.

Well! Let's say Lowe played for any other side. Would he still be the player that people think he is? He is rarely tested. Now, he is being tested and we see the player that he is. Not saying he's a dirt tracker, but as of today, he's not an international quality wing.

irishbucsfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

Well! Let's say Lowe played for any other side. Would he still be the player that people think he is? He is rarely tested. Now, he is being tested and we see the player that he is. Not saying he's a dirt tracker, but as of today, he's not an international quality wing.

Yes he would still be that player.

He's only just started playing international rugby. He's being exposed to something new. Plenty of other wingers have taken time to adjust to that.

Dubinusa

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes he would still be that player.

He's only just started playing international rugby. He's being exposed to something new. Plenty of other wingers have taken time to adjust to that.

So what's the answer? Leave him in? Stockdale didn't have any problems adjusting.
My thoughts are, he's very good with attacking play and he's nowhere near the standard required to defend. But I suppose, that can change. He certainly can develop while at Leinster. It's a position that I didn't think we'd see. They have tried to accommodate him, by moving Stockdale to fb. That in itself was not the answer.
I don't know if Lowe could be tried at the other wing?

irishbucsfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

So what's the answer? Leave him in? Stockdale didn't have any problems adjusting.
My thoughts are, he's very good with attacking play and he's nowhere near the standard required to defend. But I suppose, that can change. He certainly can develop while at Leinster. It's a position that I didn't think we'd see. They have tried to accommodate him, by moving Stockdale to fb. That in itself was not the answer.
I don't know if Lowe could be tried at the other wing?

No, don't leave him in. He's had a taste of it now he can go off and work on it and hopefully next time he's selected he'll show an improvement.

Some players don't need that adjustment period, Keenan being a great example of that. Some do. Some never adjust. We've no idea what will happen, but it's far from over.

salmocab

Dubinusa wrote: »

Well! Let's say Lowe played for any other side. Would he still be the player that people think he is? He is rarely tested. Now, he is being tested and we see the player that he is. Not saying he's a dirt tracker, but as of today, he's not an international quality wing.

What do you mean rarely tested he’s played in European finals. He’s an excellent player playing regularly for one of the very best teams in Europe. The hyperbole around here is phenomenal.

penybont exile

Neil3030 wrote: »

Even at our peak under Schmidt, there were certain types of tries that we simply couldn't produce, unless it were a game against Tier 2 opposition. I.e., the off-the-cuff, score from nothing.

With our best 10 making short work of his 30s, such scores will be even more elusive. Henshaw also a major factor; great and all as he is at what he does, he lacks the dynamism and awareness to contribute much in a fluid attack.

Yeah ....and in many ways there is nothing wrong with that. There are multiple ways to skin a cat .... that is the beauty of sport.

When I was a kid Pontypool had a fearsome pack, a world class 9, a 10 who could do the basics well & three quarter line who were essentially a supporting cast but who understood the game plan. They were were very successful. They did struggle however when an opponent was able to take them out of their comfort zone and make that supporting cast play a role they hadn't auditioned for. This is Ireland for me .... England are similar up to a point .... but their supporting cast is a bit more adaptable.

Dave_The_Sheep

Genuinely disturbing.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1372954432346931200

The Inbetween is mine

salmocab wrote: »

What do you mean rarely tested he’s played in European finals. He’s an excellent player playing regularly for one of the very best teams in Europe. The hyperbole around here is phenomenal.

I'll tell you one thing... he'll get tested next weekend...he's now seen as a weak link defensively & both Munster & Toulon will look to exploit that

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes he would still be that player.

He's only just started playing international rugby. He's being exposed to something new. Plenty of other wingers have taken time to adjust to that.

He's 29 this year. When do you think he might learn tackling at this level?

salmocab

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I'll tell you one thing... he'll get tested next weekend...he's now seen as a weak link defensively & both Munster & Toulon will look to exploit that

I’m going to go ahead and say if Munster and Toulon are building their game plans on how Lowe went for Ireland I’ll be delighted. He’s the exact same player as he was and the Leinster back line will function exactly as it normally does.

Former Former Former

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I'll tell you one thing... he'll get tested next weekend...he's now seen as a weak link defensively & both Munster & Toulon will look to exploit that

Wait... You mean Munster are actually going to try to attack this time?

THIS. CHANGES. EVERYTHING.

The Inbetween is mine

Former Former Former wrote: »

Wait... You mean Munster are actually going to try to attack this time?

THIS. CHANGES. EVERYTHING.

We're due one...I think

.ak

ecoli3136 wrote: »

He's 29 this year. When do you think he might learn tackling at this level?

I dunno but he's consistently excelled in any team he's played for.

I do think he'll come good if given the oppertunity, I think he's the sort of guy that doesn't take poor performances like that too negatively and has a great ability to getting stuck in and learning new plays.

We saw how badly he started defensively for Leinster too, and he over came that. You feel he can do the same at this level, there's a reason why he was parachuted in once qualified, he's just that quality of player that will adapt.

Now, has he blown his chance already? That's also a very real possibility, and it may be injuries and form of other players that dictate that.

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

I dunno but he's consistently excelled in any team he's played for.

Consistently you say... :pac:

AbusesToilets

.ak wrote: »

I dunno but he's consistently excelled in any team he's played for.

I do think he'll come good if given the oppertunity, I think he's the sort of guy that doesn't take poor performances like that too negatively and has a great ability to getting stuck in and learning new plays.

We saw how badly he started defensively for Leinster too, and he over came that. You feel he can do the same at this level, there's a reason why he was parachuted in once qualified, he's just that quality of player that will adapt.

Now, has he blown his chance already? That's also a very real possibility, and it may be injuries and form of other players that dictate that.

Ireland's attacking shape has been so atrocious, he's had very little opportunity to showcase his worth. Folks are quick to declare his career over, due to his defensive failings. His comrade on the opposite wing would be an instructive case study. No one could accuse Earls of defensive soundness for the majority of his career. How many howlers has he had over the years, many far worse than Lowe's.