Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

I think it's apparent in at least in the last game vs England, that Ryan allowed himself to get too involved in some sort of competition with Itoje, which he lost.

I think you are the only person who that is apparent to

shootermacg

Clegg wrote: »

I know you're trolling but I'll answer in good faith. In the time that all three were on the field together I think the Irish pack performed to close to its very best. Henderson and Ryan were very proactive at ruck time with Henderson doing a lot of tackle duty and Ryan pilfering a lot of Scottish lineout ball. This freed Beirne up to wreak havoc at the breakdown and carry freely in wider channels.

When all three are on the pitch Ireland plays better.

Who cares about Scotland!

I'm pretty sure we played combos of Ryan + Henderson and Ryan + Beirne against England, but funnily enough Henderson + Beirne seemed to work out better. Last game vs England Ryan came across as a petulant child, go rewatch it if you do not believe me.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we played combos of Ryan + Henderson and Ryan + Beirne, but funnily enough Henderson + Beirne seemed to work out better. Last game vs England Ryan came across as a petulant child, go rewatch it if you do not believe me.

Very simplistic view this. Ireland played far better today and with far smarter tactics than in any of the last 4 England games. Henderson and Beirne weren't tasked with running into brick walls all day, so of course they were more effective.

sydthebeat

shootermacg wrote: »

... Last game vs England Ryan came across as a petulant child, go rewatch it if you do not believe me.

And there it is....

You couldn't help yourself

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

Very simplistic view this. Ireland played far better today and with far smarter tactics than in any of the last 4 England games. Henderson and Beirne weren't tasked with running into brick walls all day, so of course they were more effective.

Same team without Ryan, what is it that Ryan does that's so much better than the other second rows? Other than maybe having an extra 2 inches in height, which is only 2 inches after all.

shootermacg

sydthebeat wrote: »

And there it is....

You couldn't help yourself

It's accurate.

shootermacg

sydthebeat wrote: »

And there it is....

You couldn't help yourself

It's hilarious that you are trying the voice of reason approach, why not go back to your "I hate cyclists" posts.

Now I don't really spend much time on this forum, because I have things to do, so I'll be sure to check in on your reply in the coming days.

sydthebeat

Someone's had a great evening...

Good night

Clegg

shootermacg wrote: »

Who cares about Scotland!

I'm pretty sure we played combos of Ryan + Henderson and Ryan + Beirne against England, but funnily enough Henderson + Beirne seemed to work out better. Last game vs England Ryan came across as a petulant child, go rewatch it if you do not believe me.

I'm talking specifically about the Ryan, Henderson and Beirne triumvirate and why I think they strike the perfect balance in skill sets. This balance in turn benefits the team and makes us play better. I don't get the pont you're trying to make about petulance on Ryan's behalf. It's irrelevant to the point I was making.

You're talking about some performance in 2020 which is
also completelyy irrelevant. And also completely wrong since we haven't played a combo of Ryan/Henderson or Ryan/Beirne against England since 2018 when we won a Grand Slam. Pretty good combo then right?

We played England twice in 2020. In either game the 4/5/6 was Toner/Ryan/PoM and Roux/Ryan/Stander.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Same team without Ryan, what is it that Ryan does that's so much better than the other second rows? Other than maybe having an extra 2 inches in height, which is only 2 inches after all.

Nobody is arguing he does anything "so much better". They're all excellent locks, some are better in some areas and some are better in others.

What Ryan brings is an incredible engine and work ethic, making lots of what you might call "thankless carries" getting over the gainline when we're on the back foot and it seems incredibly unlikely.

He also regularly tops the tackle charts, often making 20+ tackles in a game (back row level)

He is also an absolute menace on opposition lineout ball. He's had the most lineout steals in the comp (In just 3 games). Notice that we didn't steal any lineouts when he wasn't playing.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Will peoples assessment of Ireland performance in the six nations as a success or failure change based on the result of next weeks match?

Scotland play France.

A Scottish win with a bonus point or 5 points or more with a French bonus point (4 tries or losing) could see our place in the six nations table go from second to fourth.

This would have an impact in our prize money payout which surely has an effect on the irfu.

That said in my opinion we can only judge based on our performance and results.

aloooof

Ah jaysus, lads.... we won, like.

Louis Friend

What a performance and what a result.

Some serious positives in there:

- Keenan has taken the No 15 jersey and commandeered it

- Henshaw is in the form of his life

- Keith Earls’ try and the try that wasn’t were breathtaking; talk about turning back the clock

- Jonathan Sexton has been superb

- Tadgh Furlong is possibly the most valuable player in the world

- Tadgh Beirne has become a beast

We are back on track.

Dubinusa

shootermacg wrote: »

Who cares about Scotland!

I'm pretty sure we played combos of Ryan + Henderson and Ryan + Beirne against England, but funnily enough Henderson + Beirne seemed to work out better. Last game vs England Ryan came across as a petulant child, go rewatch it if you do not believe me.

I would suggest that the fact that England were complete ****e this tournament, bar 1 match, may have been a factor.

Dubinusa

shootermacg wrote: »

Same team without Ryan, what is it that Ryan does that's so much better than the other second rows? Other than maybe having an extra 2 inches in height, which is only 2 inches after all.

I wish I had 2 more inches!!! The oulwan would be very happy!

Dubinusa

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Will peoples assessment of Ireland performance in the six nations as a success or failure change based on the result of next weeks match?

Scotland play France.

A Scottish win with a bonus point or 5 points or more with a French bonus point (4 tries or losing) could see our place in the six nations table go from second to fourth.

This would have an impact in our prize money payout which surely has an effect on the irfu.

That said in my opinion we can only judge based on our performance and results.

I would look at this 6nations as a pile of meh! We were very poor. Awful at times. The pack in itself was the one are that we have stepped up.
The backine as a unit was atrocious. Severely lacking. Individual players played some great stuff and as a collective it was poor. It's noticeable though, as the games went by and Sexton played better the backline didn't look as bad.
Main points of interest for me.
Pack, great as a unit.
Furlong... insane
Beirne, Ryan and Henderson. 3 different lads that compliment each other.
Keenan... impressive tournament
Henshaw. Great tournament
Earls revival


The bad
No apparent loosehead successor
Backline
Lowe, very poor

All around, we are still in the gray area of have we improved? I don't think we have.

Neil3030

kilns wrote: »

After this weekend if you're Warren Gatland you know who you want leading your team at 10. Despite being not as good as he used to be he is still the benchmark for 10s in Europe

After this weekend if you're Warren Gatland you may be receiving a few calls from the RFU!

The Inbetween is mine

Dubinusa wrote: »

I wish I had 2 more inches!!! The oulwan would be very happy!

"A bad workman blames his tool"

irishbucsfan

We're in a very good point at the end of this tournament so will be great if we can keep that momentum through this very disrupted period.

Undoubtedly it's all based on the pack and in general its looking very healthy for the medium term as well.

Front row looking good with only Healy needing a short term replacement (and I'm hoping the selection of Kilcoyne was with that in mind even if he had to go early). Loosehead isn't that much of a problem position, we've got Kilcoyne, Byrne and EOS there if needed and I think all could fit into this pack. Hooker looks sorted as is with Herring and Kelleher. Tighthead we have probably the best depth of any side in the world and are healthier there than we've ever been.

Second row is clearly our strength. We're a long way removed from Leinster's Route 66 days. There was a time when Nathan Hines left Leinster and the Leinster fans were apoplectic at the idea of not being allowed an NIQ second row because there was a genuine belief we would be incapable of ever producing enough talent in that position. Now we have Beirne/Ryan/Baird who've all come through that academy and lots of other future potential there. Meanwhile, Ian Henderson was our best player of the 6 Nations for my money (or at least best forward with Henshaw possibly edging it overall) and over in Munster Thomas Ahern and Ciaran Barron both looked like excellent prospects at the weekend (and Izuchukwu up north). About as good as we've ever been in that position I reckon.

Back row is in need of someone to establish themselves as Stander's successor now. It looks like it'll be Doris but there's an opportunity for that to be Conan or Coombes (or even Boyle?). If we're going to be picking Beirne at 6 then that reduces opportunities for a young 6/8 to make it up to that level so whoever gets the chance will need to take it with both hands. At 7 I'm very happy with Connors and VDF, and maybe even a resurgent Dan Leavy some day in the future if we're lucky. Meanwhile you've got Scott Penny looking like a certain international and they're all trading time at the same province... Maybe Penny could seriously be tempted of a more permanent Standeresque switch to the back of the scrum.



Yes there are questions over the incisiveness of our backs, but the reality is we scored 57 points in our final 2 games against good opposition, and our losses were extremely narrow. Our set piece and ball retention is excellent, so they have a great platform to work with. The major concern is how they replace Sexton because as great as our pack is, it's only as good as the half backs who can turn that dominance into points. Murray/JGP seem to have us sorted for the next while at 9. My main concern is that we're (hopefully?) about to send Sexton off on a Lions tour so he could well be unavailable/wounded next season and so there'll be a huge focus on whoever is playing in his position. The drop in quality there could be enough on its own to lose us games. For me, before anyone worries about anything else in our back play, that's the first question that needs to be answered and I think it could be years before its settled.

Burkie1203

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Second row is clearly our strength. We're a long way removed from Leinster's Route 66 days. There was a time when Nathan Hines left Leinster and the Leinster fans were apoplectic at the idea of not being allowed an NIQ second row because there was a genuine belief we would be incapable of ever producing enough talent in that position. Now we have Beirne/Ryan/Baird who've all come through that academy and lots of other future potential there. Meanwhile, Ian Henderson was our best player of the 6 Nations for my money (or at least best forward with Henshaw possibly edging it overall) and over in Munster Thomas Ahern and Ciaran Barron both looked like excellent prospects at the weekend (and Izuchukwu up north). About as good as we've ever been in that position I reckon.

Back row is in need of someone to establish themselves as Stander's successor now. It looks like it'll be Doris but there's an opportunity for that to be Conan or Coombes (or even Boyle?). If we're going to be picking Beirne at 6 then that reduces opportunities for a young 6/8 to make it up to that level so whoever gets the chance will need to take it with both hands. At 7 I'm very happy with Connors and VDF, and maybe even a resurgent Dan Leavy some day in the future if we're lucky. Meanwhile you've got Scott Penny looking like a certain international and they're all trading time at the same province... Maybe Penny could seriously be tempted of a more permanent Standeresque switch to the back of the scrum.

Henderson Ryan Beirne is our best 4 5 6 combination currently.

Connors or VDF at 7. Hodnett has potential there too and Penny.

Conan Doris Deegan Coombes Boyle

I think Leinster may well lose one back row player this summer

Ulster gave loads of good backrow players but none stand out as Internationals at the moment.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We're in a very good point at the end of this tournament so will be great if we can keep that momentum through this very disrupted period.

Undoubtedly it's all based on the pack and in general its looking very healthy for the medium term as well.

Front row looking good with only Healy needing a short term replacement (and I'm hoping the selection of Kilcoyne was with that in mind even if he had to go early). Loosehead isn't that much of a problem position, we've got Kilcoyne, Byrne and EOS there if needed and I think all could fit into this pack. Hooker looks sorted as is with Herring and Kelleher. Tighthead we have probably the best depth of any side in the world and are healthier there than we've ever been.

Second row is clearly our strength. We're a long way removed from Leinster's Route 66 days. There was a time when Nathan Hines left Leinster and the Leinster fans were apoplectic at the idea of not being allowed an NIQ second row because there was a genuine belief we would be incapable of ever producing enough talent in that position. Now we have Beirne/Ryan/Baird who've all come through that academy and lots of other future potential there. Meanwhile, Ian Henderson was our best player of the 6 Nations for my money (or at least best forward with Henshaw possibly edging it overall) and over in Munster Thomas Ahern and Ciaran Barron both looked like excellent prospects at the weekend (and Izuchukwu up north). About as good as we've ever been in that position I reckon.

Back row is in need of someone to establish themselves as Stander's successor now. It looks like it'll be Doris but there's an opportunity for that to be Conan or Coombes (or even Boyle?). If we're going to be picking Beirne at 6 then that reduces opportunities for a young 6/8 to make it up to that level so whoever gets the chance will need to take it with both hands. At 7 I'm very happy with Connors and VDF, and maybe even a resurgent Dan Leavy some day in the future if we're lucky. Meanwhile you've got Scott Penny looking like a certain international and they're all trading time at the same province... Maybe Penny could seriously be tempted of a more permanent Standeresque switch to the back of the scrum.



Yes there are questions over the incisiveness of our backs, but the reality is we scored 57 points in our final 2 games against good opposition, and our losses were extremely narrow. Our set piece and ball retention is excellent, so they have a great platform to work with. The major concern is how they replace Sexton because as great as our pack is, it's only as good as the half backs who can turn that dominance into points. Murray/JGP seem to have us sorted for the next while at 9. My main concern is that we're (hopefully?) about to send Sexton off on a Lions tour so he could well be unavailable/wounded next season and so there'll be a huge focus on whoever is playing in his position. The drop in quality there could be enough on its own to lose us games. For me, before anyone worries about anything else in our back play, that's the first question that needs to be answered and I think it could be years before its settled.

You’ll get murdered but the Connacht fans and probably rightly so for forgetting Thornbury and Dillane in that mix.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

You’ll get murdered but the Connacht fans and probably rightly so for forgetting Thornbury and Dillane in that mix.

I think they're both good players, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see very few additions in the short term to the 2nd row ranks given how excellent the current players there are. And then when we eventually do blood new players, will they be looking at guys in their late 20s, or the next generation?

Would think of all the Connacht 2nd rows, the one most likely to have a real chance at establishing themselves as internationals could well be Prendergast. Although I think you could probably argue Dillane is already fairly established and if there were a couple of injuries at once he'd be back in the 23.

Interested Observer

Didn't see that performance coming at all and we're actually not in a terrible spot now imo. Our pack has turned into a bit of a machine again, still concerns about our backs for sure but you'd hope that can improve.

The red card against Wales is looking even more costly now, would probably be us sitting top of the table waiting to see what happens between France and Scotland.

theVersatile

I find it beautiful that the guys who were under the most criticism during the week were the ones who pulled it out of the bag this week. Earls, Murray and Sexton.

Earls must be taking lessons from De Allende on how to get the most out of himself on the pitch - being an absolute pest on defensive ruck ball while being efficient on our own. Tireless kick chasing and I don't think any other of our wingers would have finished either his try try or his disallowed try.

Thought Murray was excellent for a guy who's been out or action for five weeks. He brought great speed during a lot of his game, slowing down when necessary as opposed to for the sake of safety. Of course playing at that tempo post a five week lay off is going to lead to some ropey passes, but no more ropey than the fully match fit JGP has been throwing the last whilem Thought he was caught in a hard place for the kick he misjudged, but ultimately it lead to nothing.

Sexton - 8/8, and laser guided contestables all game. A guiding force throughout for the second try. Can't do much more than that to kick back at the critics.

While I'm on the topic of people under scrutiny, I must say I was very sceptical about Conan prior to this, but by God he had an important contribution. He might not have showed up much in open play, but when he did he made it count big time (initial stats show five carries for twenty five metres - but I usually tend to reserve judgment until the breakdown stats come out in a day or so). The try was brilliantly taken and he performed his role very well under pressure for the Earls try.

sebdavis

shootermacg wrote: »

What I am saying is that Beirne and Henderson did a better job as a second row pairing than Ryan did in his last few games versus England.

The whole team was a disaster in the last few games v England yet you pick out Ryan.
This was 6 nations game: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/23/england-24-12-ireland-six-nations-player-ratings-from-twickenham

Brewster

sebdavis wrote: »

The whole team was a disaster in the last few games v England yet you pick out Ryan.
This was 6 nations game: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/23/england-24-12-ireland-six-nations-player-ratings-from-twickenham

I think we are very lucky to have the players we have. There is little to choose between them. Ryan was outshone by other two this Six Nations, but it will likely be reversed the next time out. He was unlucky with two concussive incidents. I think the captaincy will probably be a shoot out between Hendy and Ryan when the time comes.

OneLungDavy

theVersatile wrote: »

I find it beautiful that the guys who were under the most criticism during the week were the ones who pulled it out of the bag this week. Earls, Murray and Sexton.

Earls must be taking lessons from De Allende on how to get the most out of himself on the pitch - being an absolute pest on defensive ruck ball while being efficient on our own. Tireless kick chasing and I don't think any other of our wingers would have finished either his try try or his disallowed try.

Thought Murray was excellent for a guy who's been out or action for five weeks. He brought great speed during a lot of his game, slowing down when necessary as opposed to for the sake of safety. Of course playing at that tempo post a five week lay off is going to lead to some ropey passes, but no more ropey than the fully match fit JGP has been throwing the last whilem Thought he was caught in a hard place for the kick he misjudged, but ultimately it lead to nothing.

Sexton - 8/8, and laser guided contestables all game. A guiding force throughout for the second try. Can't do much more than that to kick back at the critics.

While I'm on the topic of people under scrutiny, I must say I was very sceptical about Conan prior to this, but by God he had an important contribution. He might not have showed up much in open play, but when he did he made it count big time (initial stats show five carries for twenty five metres - but I usually tend to reserve judgment until the breakdown stats come out in a day or so). The try was brilliantly taken and he performed his role very well under pressure for the Earls try.

Earls has been a great rucker since the Schmidt era, really underrated part of his game. I love seeing Earls put his doubters wrong again (me being one of them), superb performance from him.

bilston

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ulster gave loads of good backrow players but none stand out as Internationals at the moment.

Yeah, the only one likely to make then international grade is David McCann. Jordi is pkaying very well, but I think his ship has sailed. Nick Timoney has really stepped up, but he misses too many tackles for my liking. Matty Rea is solid but I don't think he is test match level. So McCann it is, but he is probably one for post 2023. Ulster's next contribution to Ireland will be Robert Baloucoune.

UAEguy2020

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We're in a very good point at the end of this tournament so will be great if we can keep that momentum through this very disrupted period.

Undoubtedly it's all based on the pack and in general its looking very healthy for the medium term as well.

Front row looking good with only Healy needing a short term replacement (and I'm hoping the selection of Kilcoyne was with that in mind even if he had to go early). Loosehead isn't that much of a problem position, we've got Kilcoyne, Byrne and EOS there if needed and I think all could fit into this pack. Hooker looks sorted as is with Herring and Kelleher. Tighthead we have probably the best depth of any side in the world and are healthier there than we've ever been.

Second row is clearly our strength. We're a long way removed from Leinster's Route 66 days. There was a time when Nathan Hines left Leinster and the Leinster fans were apoplectic at the idea of not being allowed an NIQ second row because there was a genuine belief we would be incapable of ever producing enough talent in that position. Now we have Beirne/Ryan/Baird who've all come through that academy and lots of other future potential there. Meanwhile, Ian Henderson was our best player of the 6 Nations for my money (or at least best forward with Henshaw possibly edging it overall) and over in Munster Thomas Ahern and Ciaran Barron both looked like excellent prospects at the weekend (and Izuchukwu up north). About as good as we've ever been in that position I reckon.

Back row is in need of someone to establish themselves as Stander's successor now. It looks like it'll be Doris but there's an opportunity for that to be Conan or Coombes (or even Boyle?). If we're going to be picking Beirne at 6 then that reduces opportunities for a young 6/8 to make it up to that level so whoever gets the chance will need to take it with both hands. At 7 I'm very happy with Connors and VDF, and maybe even a resurgent Dan Leavy some day in the future if we're lucky. Meanwhile you've got Scott Penny looking like a certain international and they're all trading time at the same province... Maybe Penny could seriously be tempted of a more permanent Standeresque switch to the back of the scrum.



Yes there are questions over the incisiveness of our backs, but the reality is we scored 57 points in our final 2 games against good opposition, and our losses were extremely narrow. Our set piece and ball retention is excellent, so they have a great platform to work with. The major concern is how they replace Sexton because as great as our pack is, it's only as good as the half backs who can turn that dominance into points. Murray/JGP seem to have us sorted for the next while at 9. My main concern is that we're (hopefully?) about to send Sexton off on a Lions tour so he could well be unavailable/wounded next season and so there'll be a huge focus on whoever is playing in his position. The drop in quality there could be enough on its own to lose us games. For me, before anyone worries about anything else in our back play, that's the first question that needs to be answered and I think it could be years before its settled.

Who’s Ciaran Barron btw? There’s Diarmuid Barron but he’s a hooker!

UAEguy2020

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Henderson Ryan Beirne is our best 4 5 6 combination currently.

Connors or VDF at 7. Hodnett has potential there too and Penny.

Conan Doris Deegan Coombes Boyle

I think Leinster may well lose one back row player this summer

Ulster gave loads of good backrow players but none stand out as Internationals at the moment.

CJ’s retirement opens the door for Hodnett at Munster now for the 7 shirt.