Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Wegians89

Healy Kilcoyne Bryne EOS Wycherley
Kelleher Herring Heffernan Scannell
Furlong Porter Bealham O’Toole aungier

Henderson Baird Dillane Thornbury
Ryan Roux Beirne Wycherley

Stander POM Coombes ruddock
Leavy connors vdf penny jordie Murphy
Doris Conan Deegan Boyle

Murray Jgp Marmion cooney blade Casey mcgrath
Sexton burns Byrne Carty bryne healy

Bundee Henshaw Frawley mccloskary scannell
Ringrose Farrell Hume T Farrell

Stockdale Lowe Kearney wootton
Keenan Daly Job Lowry
Larmour earls Conway balacoune

Likes of Addison and carbery too potentially

Player pool is actually pretty decent. Loose head, hooker and out half look the be the areas that young lads really need to be given chances in. A lot of talented players at 9 but need one to stand out and take over from murray.

OneLungDavy

Wegians89 wrote: »

Healy Kilcoyne Bryne EOS Wycherley
Kelleher Herring Heffernan Scannell
Furlong Porter Bealham O’Toole aungier

Henderson Baird Dillane Thornbury
Ryan Roux Beirne Wycherley

Stander POM Coombes ruddock
Leavy connors vdf penny jordie Murphy
Doris Conan Deegan Boyle

Murray Jgp Marmion cooney blade Casey mcgrath
Sexton burns Byrne Carty bryne healy

Bundee Henshaw Frawley mccloskary scannell
Ringrose Farrell Hume T Farrell

Stockdale Lowe Kearney wootton
Keenan Daly Job Lowry
Larmour earls Conway balacoune

Likes of Addison and carbery too potentially

Player pool is actually pretty decent. Loose head, hooker and out half look the be the areas that young lads really need to be given chances in. A lot of talented players at 9 but need one to stand out and take over from murray.

mccloskary :cool:

El_Duderino 09

Wegians89 wrote: »

Healy Kilcoyne Bryne EOS Wycherley
Kelleher Herring Heffernan Scannell
Furlong Porter Bealham O’Toole aungier
...

The front row positions are very weak. There are two capable props in each position, one decent stand in but you wouldn’t expect to win much if you’re relying on them as starters, and the rest are players with potential.

Nothing wrong with young players with potential but I think the front row is a cause for concern at the moment and the short term future. Healy has had a great career but it’s clear he’s winding down now.

The rest of the squad is pretty encouraging though.

bilston

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The front row positions are very weak. There are two capable props in each position, one decent stand in but you wouldn’t expect to win much if you’re relying on them as starters, and the rest are players with potential.

Nothing wrong with young players with potential but I think the front row is a cause for concern at the moment and the short term future. Healy has had a great career but it’s clear he’s winding down now.

The rest of the squad is pretty encouraging though.

If say someone like Tom O'Toole or Jack Aungier emerged as viable options at TH to back up and eventually take over Furlong (who to be fair still has a good 5 years in him you'd think), there may be an argument for moving Porter back to LH. I think its the one position where we may struggle to find a suitable replacement for the incumbent.

bilston

3 out of the last 5 U20s sides have been very good...one JWC finalist team, one GS and one TC which may well have been a GS but for Covid...

Now we may have just about exhausted the 2016 side for internationals, but the 2019 and 2020 sides were both really strong, there are bound to be a number of Internationals fro. Those two year groups that were the equal of and better than their European peers. That makes me think the talent has to be there to keep us competitive at the top table over the next 5-6 years. Coombes, Ahern, Hodnett, Aungier, Stewart, McCann, Casey, Byrne, Cowley, Hawkshaw, Moore, McIlroy, Smith...there will be others I haven't mentioned there, but the talent is definitely there IMO.

Edit - forgot Ryan Baird!!!

Dubinusa

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The front row positions are very weak. There are two capable props in each position, one decent stand in but you wouldn’t expect to win much if you’re relying on them as starters, and the rest are players with potential.

Nothing wrong with young players with potential but I think the front row is a cause for concern at the moment and the short term future. Healy has had a great career but it’s clear he’s winding down now.

The rest of the squad is pretty encouraging though.

Tight head is strong. Loose head is a problem. At least right now. I don't see another Healy coming thru. I hope we have at least a couple of reliable, international quality loose heads coming up. Healy was world class at times. A beast of a man.

Dubinusa

bilston wrote: »

3 out of the last 5 U20s sides have been very good...one JWC finalist team, one GS and one TC which may well have been a GS but for Covid...

Now we may have just about exhausted the 2016 side for internationals, but the 2019 and 2020 sides were both really strong, there are bound to be a number of Internationals fro. Those two year groups that were the equal of and better than their European peers. That makes me think the talent has to be there to keep us competitive at the top table over the next 5-6 years. Coombes, Ahern, Hodnett, Aungier, Stewart, McCann, Casey, Byrne, Cowley, Hawkshaw, Moore, McIlroy, Smith...there will be others I haven't mentioned there, but the talent is definitely there IMO.

I agree! Lots of talent. The 16 team was exceptional. But even the 17 team had some potential internationals. Boyle, Wycherly and I think Lyttle. Not forgetting Larmour.
I think we have a slew of quality locks coming up. Ahern, Charlie Ryan, Niall Murray, Deeny and Baird. I think they all could be capped.
There's a few decent 9's there too. Not all bad!

Yeah_Right

Ireland has had some very good u20 teams over the last few years producing some very talented players, who are coming through to the pro ranks now. More will come through in the next few years and hopefully that will translate to a strong Irish team.

The problem is the teams that finished ahead of Ireland in those past few years. The back to back French sides were fantastic and the kiwi team that won in Georgia in 2017 was absolutely fantastic. Probably the best I'd seen since 2008-10. England tend to rely on size at u20 but they are consistently up there and with the number of players they have, they should remain fairly strong at senior level for awhile. RSA haven't been in the final a few years but they are consistently in the top 4 so there is talent coming through.

Sorry to put a bit of a downer on it all 😮

nerd69

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Ireland has had some very good u20 teams over the last few years producing some very talented players, who are coming through to the pro ranks now. More will come through in the next few years and hopefully that will translate to a strong Irish team.

The problem is the teams that finished ahead of Ireland in those past few years. The back to back French sides were fantastic and the kiwi team that won in Georgia in 2017 was absolutely fantastic. Probably the best I'd seen since 2008-10. England tend to rely on size at u20 but they are consistently up there and with the number of players they have, they should remain fairly strong at senior level for awhile. RSA haven't been in the final a few years but they are consistently in the top 4 so there is talent coming through.

Sorry to put a bit of a downer on it all 😮

Always going to be the way with bigger population country's if we get a few.really.good.pros a year that's more than enough we don't have the infrastructure to support as many dominant 20s teams.coming to senior level

We're gonna win the World Cup.

Yeah_Right

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're gonna win the World Cup.

You're meant to buy us all whiskey. Not drink it all.

El_Duderino 09

Dubinusa wrote: »

Tight head is strong. Loose head is a problem. At least right now. I don't see another Healy coming thru. I hope we have at least a couple of reliable, international quality loose heads coming up. Healy was world class at times. A beast of a man.

I copied the list of front rows from a few posts ago.
Tight head is stronger than loose head as Porter and Furlong are both very good (when fit). But the options behind aren't great. Some have potential but that all they have for now. Byrne is ok as a backup when a better player is injured, but you're not expecting him to become top class. Same with Bealham on the other side. He's good to have in an injury crisis but not the answer to any kind of long term problem. So then we're talking about young guys with potential.

Fact is, the Irish scrum was a liability more than a weapon this autumn window. Sometimes they held their own and in the big games they were on the back foot more often than not. That's not good enough to win things

Healy Kilcoyne Bryne EOS Wycherley
Kelleher Herring Heffernan Scannell
Furlong Porter Bealham O’Toole aungier

TRC10

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Same with Bealham on the other side. He's good to have in an injury crisis but not the answer to any kind of long term problem.

Bealham is a perfectly good 3rd choice tighthead. We then have youngsters like Aungier and O'Toole who have huge potential. With Furlong and Porter as 1 and 2. I'm not quite sure what your problem with our tighthead options are.

El_Duderino 09

TRC10 wrote: »

Bealham is a perfectly good 3rd choice tighthead. We then have youngsters like Aungier and O'Toole who have huge potential. With Furlong and Porter as 1 and 2. I'm not quite sure what your problem with our tighthead options are.

So we agree he’s grand as a 3rd choice? And we had furlong and Porter this autumn window but one was injured so we were left with an ok 3rd choice tighthead on the bench. That the problem.

He’s ok. And ok is... ok. But you don’t build a plan to win games against teams like the current England and France sides with ok players. That’s the problem.

I’d keep my hopes on the young lads coming through rather then relying on Bealham.

UAEguy2020

bilston wrote: »

3 out of the last 5 U20s sides have been very good...one JWC finalist team, one GS and one TC which may well have been a GS but for Covid...

Now we may have just about exhausted the 2016 side for internationals, but the 2019 and 2020 sides were both really strong, there are bound to be a number of Internationals fro. Those two year groups that were the equal of and better than their European peers. That makes me think the talent has to be there to keep us competitive at the top table over the next 5-6 years. Coombes, Ahern, Hodnett, Aungier, Stewart, McCann, Casey, Byrne, Cowley, Hawkshaw, Moore, McIlroy, Smith...there will be others I haven't mentioned there, but the talent is definitely there IMO.

Edit - forgot Ryan Baird!!!

And next years team is potentially the best one yet so plenty should come through that group with the RWC in mind.

TRC10

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So we agree he’s grand as a 3rd choice? And we had furlong and Porter this autumn window but one was injured so we were left with an ok 3rd choice tighthead on the bench. That the problem.

He’s ok. And ok is... ok. But you don’t build a plan to win games against teams like the current England and France sides with ok players. That’s the problem.

I’d keep my hopes on the young lads coming through rather then relying on Bealham.

I don't know what your point is. Nobody is saying build a team around him. You agreed he's grand as a third choice but then said you have a problem with him actually being the third choice. Players get injured sometimes, and you have to call on your third choice, if hes grand as said, how is that a problem? Most teams would be perfectly happy with him as their 3rd choice. Our depth at TH is not an issue, I'd argue it's our strongest position.

Bazzo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So we agree he’s grand as a 3rd choice? And we had furlong and Porter this autumn window but one was injured so we were left with an ok 3rd choice tighthead on the bench. That the problem.

He’s ok. And ok is... ok. But you don’t build a plan to win games against teams like the current England and France sides with ok players. That’s the problem.

I’d keep my hopes on the young lads coming through rather then relying on Bealham.

Your post doesn't make any sense. Saying he's grand as 3rd choice implies you don't have a problem with him filling in if need be, that's the point of being third choice.

Dog Botherer

Finlay Bealham has beaten the All Blacks more times than John Hayes.

TRC10

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Finlay Bealham has beaten the All Blacks more times than John Hayes.

Finlay Bealham has beaten the all blacks more times than John Hayes, Paul O'Connell, Ronan o'gara and brian o'Driscoll combined

El_Duderino 09

TRC10 wrote: »

I don't know what your point is. Nobody is saying build a team around him. You agreed he's grand as a third choice but then said you have a problem with him actually being the third choice. Players get injured sometimes, and you have to call on your third choice, if hes grand as said, how is that a problem? Most teams would be perfectly happy with him as their 3rd choice. Our depth at TH is not an issue, I'd argue it's our strongest position.

Yeah he’s grand in an emergency, but grand isn’t good enough. That’s my point.

This autumn window was an emergency (by definition as he was the main backup). The result was they played Porter in every game and left him on for as long as possible to avoid having to play Bealham too much. If you don’t see why that’s a problem, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Contrast that with the situation where there’s genuine competition for the starting place and the sub is about as good as the starter. (Leavy and VDF or Luke McGrath and JGP at Leinster, or Healy and Jack McGrath at Leinster and Ireland. When Healy and McGrath were trading places, it was great when the sub came on because a fresh McGrath was better than a tired Healy. But they play Bealham because they have to rest Porter for the next game, not because he’s going to improve the situation right now.

Bealham is grand, and grand is good enough to be beaten by top teams. That’s a problem.

Dubinusa

Tom O'Toole will be in the mix soon enough. I think he will be a better option than Bealham. He has a lot of potential. Bealham has reached his ceiling. Bealham is a good player. Not a stand out, but decent.
Beyond that, Aungier is probably one for the future. He's getting minutes in Connacht and we'll see what he offers.
Tight head is looking better than loose head. A complete reversal of 10 years ago.
Interesting to see Wycherly getting the start for Munster. Hopefully he goes well. I would think he could be an international over the next 3 or 4 years. Probably will miss the rwc unless he really lays down a marker.
Milne could also be in the running too. Although he is mainly used as a sub atm.

The summer tour should be a blank canvas. I would expect at least 5 new caps. Meaning, lads starting the matches and not just sitting for 70 minutes.
I reckon Boyle and Coombes are certain to be included. Perhaps TOT will start a match and definitely Baird.

Hopefully, next autumn the makeup of the squad will look different and younger.

AbusesToilets

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah he’s grand in an emergency, but grand isn’t good enough. That’s my point.

This autumn window was an emergency (by definition as he was the main backup). The result was they played Porter in every game and left him on for as long as possible to avoid having to play Bealham too much. If you don’t see why that’s a problem, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Contrast that with the situation where there’s genuine competition for the starting place and the sub is about as good as the starter. (Leavy and VDF or Luke McGrath and JGP at Leinster, or Healy and Jack McGrath at Leinster and Ireland. When Healy and McGrath were trading places, it was great when the sub came on because a fresh McGrath was better than a tired Healy. But they play Bealham because they have to rest Porter for the next game, not because he’s going to improve the situation right now.

Bealham is grand, and grand is good enough to be beaten by top teams. That’s a problem.

Bealham has been very good this autumn. Solid in the scrum and carrying strongly. Not sure what your issue with him is, he's a quality TH, and probably deserves a start. He wasn't an emergency option when we beat New Zealand.

Interested Observer

Pretty confident the Leocaster coached Leinster 23 for the game tomorrow would beat the Farrell coached Ireland of recent times.

Yeah_Right

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah he’s grand in an emergency, but grand isn’t good enough. That’s my point.

This autumn window was an emergency (by definition as he was the main backup). The result was they played Porter in every game and left him on for as long as possible to avoid having to play Bealham too much. If you don’t see why that’s a problem, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Contrast that with the situation where there’s genuine competition for the starting place and the sub is about as good as the starter. (Leavy and VDF or Luke McGrath and JGP at Leinster, or Healy and Jack McGrath at Leinster and Ireland. When Healy and McGrath were trading places, it was great when the sub came on because a fresh McGrath was better than a tired Healy. But they play Bealham because they have to rest Porter for the next game, not because he’s going to improve the situation right now.

Bealham is grand, and grand is good enough to be beaten by top teams. That’s a problem.

How many countries have a 3rd choice TH who is more than "grand in an emergency" and wouldn't get beaten by the first or second choice LH in a top team?

irishbucsfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

How many countries have a 3rd choice TH who is more than "grand in an emergency" and wouldn't get beaten by the first or second choice LH in a top team?

Well NZ never will anyway, if our project player system has anything to say about it

El_Duderino 09

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Bealham has been very good this autumn. Solid in the scrum and carrying strongly. Not sure what your issue with him is, he's a quality TH, and probably deserves a start. He wasn't an emergency option when we beat New Zealand.

Well, he is no threat to Porter or Futlong, and they flogged Porter in every game rather than trust Bealham with a game.

He was ok, but he’s not a top player. If you play ok players you can expect ok results but you can’t expect or beat the top teams like England and France are at the moment.

The scrum wasn’t strong this autumn. They need better than Bealham. I’m sure he’s a sound man, but he’s not the answer to the question of how Ireland improve to beat teams like England and France

El_Duderino 09

Yeah_Right wrote: »

How many countries have a 3rd choice TH who is more than "grand in an emergency" and wouldn't get beaten by the first or second choice LH in a top team?

Bealham is third choice for a reason. He’s a third choice who isn’t pushing the top two. He’s well behind in third.

It’s not impossible, or even particularly unusual to have three good players in one position. VDF, Beirne, Cooney, Marmion, are quality players who struggle to make the Ireland squad because there is strength in depth in those positions. Bealham makes the bench because there isn’t similar strength in depth at TH.

Dog Botherer

our scrum was really good this autumn! one of the only consistently strong parts of our game! what are people talking about!?

Yeah_Right

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Bealham is third choice for a reason. He’s a third choice who isn’t pushing the top two. He’s well behind in third.

It’s not impossible, or even particularly unusual to have three good players in one position. VDF, Beirne, Cooney, Marmion, are quality players who struggle to make the Ireland squad because there is strength in depth in those positions. Bealham makes the bench because there isn’t similar strength in depth at TH.

Furlong and Porter are very good players. They would probably make any country's starting 23. I could see both making the Lions tour. Bealham being a fair bit behind them is no shame. He's a good player, like the guys you named and fine as a third choice tighthead. Who are the 3rd choice tightheads in the other 6 Nation teams.

Bazzo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah he’s grand in an emergency, but grand isn’t good enough. That’s my point.

This autumn window was an emergency (by definition as he was the main backup). The result was they played Porter in every game and left him on for as long as possible to avoid having to play Bealham too much. If you don’t see why that’s a problem, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Contrast that with the situation where there’s genuine competition for the starting place and the sub is about as good as the starter. (Leavy and VDF or Luke McGrath and JGP at Leinster, or Healy and Jack McGrath at Leinster and Ireland. When Healy and McGrath were trading places, it was great when the sub came on because a fresh McGrath was better than a tired Healy. But they play Bealham because they have to rest Porter for the next game, not because he’s going to improve the situation right now.

Bealham is grand, and grand is good enough to be beaten by top teams. That’s a problem.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, he is no threat to Porter or Futlong, and they flogged Porter in every game rather than trust Bealham with a game.

Eh, no, they didn't over play Porter because they were afraid of subbing him for or starting Bealham. In the only match where Bealham was sub tighthead (Wales) he came on at 64', a very normal time for a trusted sub tighthead to come on.

In the second match (England) he came on at loosehead for Healy at 64' and against Georgia he started at loosehead. He wasn't in the squad for Scotland.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

He was ok, but he’s not a top player. If you play ok players you can expect ok results but you can’t expect or beat the top teams like England and France are at the moment.

Yes, there's no way Ireland could beat a top team like England, France or possibly New Zealand with Bealham in the team.

Tight head is such a strange position to fixate on as a weakness in the current Ireland team.