Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ScissorPaperRock

aloooof wrote: »

This is the problem with the Zebo argument. This is just not true true:



But then neither is this:

Get out of here with your balanced perspective

Louis Friend

Okay, I’ll admit it. My dislike for Simon Zebo is probably based on an unconscious bias and underlying discrimination.

He went to Pres and he’s from Cork, so I was never likely to be a fan.

OneLungDavy

I'd argue he's better in the air than any winger we currently have.

I thought he lost his place at Racing? Not sure I'd agree he's a better player now.

The Inbetween is mine

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I'd argue he's better in the air than any winger we currently have.

I thought he lost his place at Racing? Not sure I'd agree he's a better player now.

I think he is, by quite a distance better....his vision with ball in hand and distribution is much better than when he left
He has been in and out of the team all season, but that's the same for Beale & Thomas... embarrassment of riches is the phrase that comes to mind..

irishbucsfan

He’s never been better than any winger we have, and he’s not as good as he was when he left.

The only thing that he has that stands out as clearly better than other options is his passing ability, which is sporadic. That’s great and could well see him in the 23 next season, but he’s going to have to perform at his best to beat out Stockdale and Lowe and time is against him.

sydthebeat

ah ... havent we missed the Zebo chat so much

Interested Observer

There's a few guys in the squad ahead of him anyway but would also be disappointed to see him ahead of talented young guys like Balacoune.

nerd69

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He’s never been better than any winger we have, and he’s not as good as he was when he left.

The only thing that he has that stands out as clearly better than other options is his passing ability, which is sporadic. That’s great and could well see him in the 23 next season, but he’s going to have to perform at his best to beat out Stockdale and Lowe and time is against him.

Jesus stockdale I 100% get and there are a few other wingers if have ahead of zebo but if people are saying zebo hasn't shown it at international level then dont bring up lowe the mans a big wing and has that big left boot but he's a historicaly bad defender. I'm sure he can improve but he shouod probably have to earn his way back in himself

theVersatile

Name another Irish winger who can pull this off - I'll wait

https://youtu.be/Pjh1XL96ND8

The guy also scored two tries after starting in the Heineken Cup final last year. All this "show me what you've seen from him this year" lark seems to be just grasping at straws.

irishbucsfan

nerd69 wrote: »

Jesus stockdale I 100% get and there are a few other wingers if have ahead of zebo but if people are saying zebo hasn't shown it at international level then dont bring up lowe the mans a big wing and has that big left boot but he's a historicaly bad defender. I'm sure he can improve but he shouod probably have to earn his way back in himself

Zebo and Earls also struggled when they broke into the international scene and both improved with exposure to it. You have to assume Lowe will be the same.

If he can bring his defensive ability up to par he’ll be a fairly obvious starter. But he does have a very long way to go based on his recent performances.

errlloyd

theVersatile wrote: »

Name another Irish winger who can pull this off - I'll wait
.

It's a good pass, and a good chip. But it comes from Zebo selfishly jumping to catch a pass that wasn't meant for him, knocking it behind him and very nearly spoiling the overlap Murray had identified. Sometimes this clip ends in with an Edinburgh centre who had shot out of the line to tackle Zebo collecting the loose ball behind him and running the length. Sometimes this clip ends with Zebo catching that ball over his head, and then realising he has barely any support and there are 4 Edinburgh forwards in front of him so he gets turned over.

What a player can do 20% of the time is not what a player should do 100% of the time.

irishbucsfan

theVersatile wrote: »

Name another Irish winger who can pull this off - I'll wait

https://youtu.be/Pjh1XL96ND8

The guy also scored two tries after starting in the Heineken Cup final last year. All this "show me what you've seen from him this year" lark seems to be just grasping at straws.

Because long range passing is the trait you commonly prioritise when selecting a winger?


Maybe Munster and Ireland will look at him at full back though. I think he could have a lot to offer there but bad timing for him with Keenan establishing himself.

Former Former Former

errlloyd wrote: »

It's a good pass, and a good chip.

And it's a Pro14 game against Edinburgh. I'm not sure how relevant that is.

There is no question that he can do it at that level. He'll be a great signing for Munster.

At test level, he is squad depth.

theVersatile

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because long range passing is the trait you commonly prioritise when selecting a winger?

Of course - but this was in response to those saying he doesn't offer anything more than any other winger. He has undeniable x-factor. The full back call is a good shout though - we saw during the Stockdale experiment that he was given lisence to throw long passes.

Imagine Zebo having increase license to pull stuff like this out of the locker week in week out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccDgqeRjsZ0

nerd69

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Zebo and Earls also struggled when they broke into the international scene and both improved with exposure to it. You have to assume Lowe will be the same.

If he can bring his defensive ability up to par he’ll be a fairly obvious starter. But he does have a very long way to go based on his recent performances.

If he can become even average defensivly it'd be a huge step up but I think itd make him an automatic starter one of the first names on the team sheet but neither earls or zebo where as bad as him defensivly on the wing plus they where I t heir early 20s and refining their game in general lowes 28 and has been playing super rugby and champions cup rugby for the bones of a decade I'd guess. Id love to see him step up defensivly but it's unlikely likely imo

nerd69

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because long range passing is the trait you commonly prioritise when selecting a winger?


Maybe Munster and Ireland will look at him at full back though. I think he could have a lot to offer there but bad timing for him with Keenan establishing himself.

Having a wong as a second or third distributer would be very useful of he's coming off the blind side to be fair. Particularly when we don't really have a standout second distributor at the moment it could be a huge value. I don't think he's at where he was athletically before but as that second ball player late in the game he could be invaluable to be honest. That's where his value lies at this stage for me.

(Having said that id like some younger guys get a shot at his expense this summer In particular and I don't see him as automatically starting for munster never mind in the ireland squad)

AbusesToilets

nerd69 wrote: »

If he can become even average defensivly it'd be a huge step up but I think itd make him an automatic starter one of the first names on the team sheet but neither earls or zebo where as bad as him defensivly on the wing plus they where I t heir early 20s and refining their game in general lowes 28 and has been playing super rugby and champions cup rugby for the bones of a decade I'd guess. Id love to see him step up defensivly but it's unlikely likely imo

He was quite solid against Exeter. Made a try saving tackle covering across the backline, and made some big hits out wide. System issues can be fixed, it's his apparent lack of effort at times that's concerning.

nerd69

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He was quite solid against Exeter. Made a try saving tackle covering across the backline, and made some big hits out wide. System issues can be fixed, it's his apparent lack of effort at times that's concerning.

100% he's big and powerful there's no real reason that he can't be a monsterous defender (and doug howlett showed you can turn it around late In your career) but some of the falling off tackles shouldn't really happen for a 100kg wing and for a guy of his experience some of the decisions are particularly bad. Again if he turns it around it'd be great because that big left boot is huge for us before you even look at how good he can be with ball in hand

Clegg

Wing has become a bit of a problem area for Ireland. Earls is our best player there but is getting on a bit and Lowe/Stockdale/Conway have all had dips in form. Could see Zebo challenging for one of the jerseys there. Larmour has maybe found his form again though. If there's a shootout between two players of similar form and ability I think you have to back the younger player.

I don't think we'll see Zebo challenge at full back either. Hugo Keenan's development has been one of the unmitigated successes of Farrell's tenure. He's solid under the high ball, a good counter attacker and runs good attacking lines in phase play. He's the best offloader in the country too.

nerd69

Ya I think keenan's locked in for now and if we're rotating people for the summer I'd have thought lowry and/or baloucoune are more worth giving a chance to for now. Let him play for.munster next year see how he is and go from there

Dubinusa

I reckon Balacoune should be starting if there is a summer tour. If his form continues as it is, he's going to be a starter. From what I've seen, he's miles ahead of Stockdale, Lowe and Zebo defensive. He's probably faster than them too.
I think his emergence will put the others into the wider squad. Larmour is also in that category, but he is younger and has the better upside. Stockdale is young too, and he Possibly will fix his problems.
For the long term. Zebo and Lowe aren't the answer. The younger options are better going forward.

sebdavis

Dubinusa wrote: »

I reckon Balacoune should be starting if there is a summer tour. If his form continues as it is, he's going to be a starter. From what I've seen, he's miles ahead of Stockdale, Lowe and Zebo defensive. He's probably faster than them too.
I think his emergence will put the others into the wider squad. Larmour is also in that category, but he is younger and has the better upside. Stockdale is young too, and he Possibly will fix his problems.
For the long term. Zebo and Lowe aren't the answer. The younger options are better going forward.

Doesn't matter who you put on the wing if the tactics are terrible.
You have dismissed Stockdale, Lowe, and Zebo in one post in the vain hope of Balacoune been the answer. Go back 12 months and it was all ok because Lowe was the answer.

Lets not forget Stockdale, Lowe, Zebo, Larmour etc are exceptional players who have done it at club level for a number of seasons.

What is your answer if Balacoune goes in and has a bad game? dump him and move onto the next player or try to find out what the issue is?

P.S. not having a pop at Balacoune, I think he will be a great winger but he will suffer if the tactics are wrong as well

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Doesn't matter who you put on the wing if the tactics are terrible.
You have dismissed Stockdale, Lowe, and Zebo in one post in the vain hope of Balacoune been the answer. Go back 12 months and it was all ok because Lowe was the answer.

Lets not forget Stockdale, Lowe, Zebo, Larmour etc are exceptional players who have done it at club level for a number of seasons.

What is your answer if Balacoune goes in and has a bad game? dump him and move onto the next player or try to find out what the issue is?

P.S. not having a pop at Balacoune, I think he will be a great winger but he will suffer if the tactics are wrong as well

Can’t speak for Dubinusa, but I think the type of defensive mistakes we’ve seen aren’t systemic / tactical; they seem more individual errors to me.

Point taken about the attack tho, even if it was much improved versus England.

I’m a big fan of Zebo’s but would personally prefer to see Balacoune get the nod for any Summer games (if there are any) ahead of either him or Lowe tbh.

Teferi

We can talk about his pros and cons of his rugby ability all day but his attitude to the Irish team has been awful since he left. The smug tweets when we were losing and all that craic. For that alone he shouldn’t be in contention for the jersey. He simply doesn’t deserve it.

thomond2006

Teferi wrote: »

We can talk about his pros and cons of his rugby ability all day but his attitude to the Irish team has been awful since he left. The smug tweets when we were losing and all that craic. For that alone he shouldn’t be in contention for the jersey. He simply doesn’t deserve it.

It's ok to be bitter that Zebo didn't sign for Leinster, Teferi. We're here for you!

Teferi

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's ok to be bitter that Zebo didn't sign for Leinster, Teferi. We're here for you!

I would rather shit in my hands and clap.

thomond2006

Teferi wrote: »

I would rather s[h]it in my hands and clap.

*Virtual hug*

thomond2006

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Balacoune tore his hamstring, won't be in the reckoning for a call up until November at the earliest

He's injured again?!

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

He's injured again?!

Nope I read it wrong on the Ulster thread, my bad

kilns

Zebo's return is a morale boost for Munster and for Ireland he boosts our options on the wing but he is not a player where we should go wow Zebo is back, he is a back up player