Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa

sebdavis wrote: »

Doesn't matter who you put on the wing if the tactics are terrible.
You have dismissed Stockdale, Lowe, and Zebo in one post in the vain hope of Balacoune been the answer. Go back 12 months and it was all ok because Lowe was the answer.

Lets not forget Stockdale, Lowe, Zebo, Larmour etc are exceptional players who have done it at club level for a number of seasons.

What is your answer if Balacoune goes in and has a bad game? dump him and move onto the next player or try to find out what the issue is?

P.S. not having a pop at Balacoune, I think he will be a great winger but he will suffer if the tactics are wrong as well

Not dismissing anyone! Stockdale is a good player with defensive issues. Larmour is a good player that struggles under the high ball. Lowe is a poor defender. Balacoune looks a better all round package. No matter how it's spun it's obvious that there are serious flaws amongst the 3 aforementioned lads. At 28 Lowe won't improve, imo. Stockdale may as Larmour may.

TRC10

https://youtu.be/vdhZEjL48Y8

This is 5 months ago in a Heineken Cup final. I don't know how anyone thinks he has nothing to offer Ireland.

If shows the form he did in his first 2 seasons at Racing, you can't leave him out of the Irish setup.

Keenan I think is absolutely class, but he's equally comfortable on the wing and there's be no issue moving him to fit Zebo in. Wales do it with L.Williams and the All Blacks did it will Ben Smith.

A back 3 of
15-Zebo
14-Keenan
11-Stockdale
Is seriously strong

Of course that's if Zebo hits the ground running. And again, I think Keenan is brilliant and has really made the 15 shirt his own. But if Zebo shows his Racing form at Munster, you simply have to fit him in.

Garda Kenny

The question is, was Zeno good at Racing because of his own talents or because he surrounded by a dominant team. I would wager it was the latter. He is a good player with good pace if a little rough around the edges and unconventional.

By that I mean I’ve seen Zebo fail to do the very basics of the game on a consistent basis. To scuttle clearance kicks along the ground up to a dozen times in the international game is embarrassing for the player, his coaches and the supporters who put their faith in him.

It simply isn’t good enough and is unacceptable. By that I mean he should never be selected again until he has shown he has improved on those areas of his game which are lacking. His tackling has also on occasion been embarrassing. He has shown failures in his game which warrant him being scrutinised in order to gain re entry to represent his country again

nerd69

Garda Kenny wrote: »

The question is, was Zeno good at Racing because of his own talents or because he surrounded by a dominant team. I would wager it was the latter. He is a good player with good pace if a little rough around the edges and unconventional.

By that I mean I’ve seen Zebo fail to do the very basics of the game on a consistent basis. To scuttle clearance kicks along the ground up to a dozen times in the international game is embarrassing for the player, his coaches and the supporters who put their faith in him.

It simply isn’t good enough and is unacceptable. By that I mean he should never be selected again until he has shown he has improved on those areas of his game which are lacking. His tackling has also on occasion been embarrassing. He has shown failures in his game which warrant him being scrutinised in order to gain re entry to represent his country again

By that standard it's earls and I guess conway on the wing going forward

aloooof

Garda Kenny wrote: »

To scuttle clearance kicks along the ground up to a dozen times in the international game is embarrassing for the player, his coaches and the supporters who put their faith in him.

What game exactly did that happen in?

Garda Kenny

nerd69 wrote: »

By that standard it's earls and I guess conway on the wing going forward

Correct. I would fast track Aaron Sexton personally and make him into international standard wing. It’s not our strongest position. Currently all the challengers for wing position for Ireland have flaws in their games. I would be looking in the underage game for players with raw materials like speed and build them into international standard players

P.Walnuts

Garda Kenny wrote: »

Correct. I would fast track Aaron Sexton personally and make him into international standard wing. It’s not our strongest position. Currently all the challengers for wing position for Ireland have flaws in their games. I would be looking in the underage game for players with raw materials like speed and build them into international standard players

This is fantastic stuff really

Garda Kenny

P.Walnuts wrote: »

This is fantastic stuff really

Much obliged

salmocab

P.Walnuts wrote: »

This is fantastic stuff really

It’s amazing that nobody else thought of just making quick people into international standard wingers

nerd69

Is aaron sexton really a top.class defensive winger? Iv not seen him play but in general guys like him take some time

thomond2006

I'm just here to read Clegg's latest outrageous take.

Squidgy Black

Aaron Sexton isn't even the best winger in the Ulster academy.

But he goes zoom so he should be starting for Ireland.

sebdavis

Dubinusa wrote: »

Not dismissing anyone! Stockdale is a good player with defensive issues. Larmour is a good player that struggles under the high ball. Lowe is a poor defender. Balacoune looks a better all round package. No matter how it's spun it's obvious that there are serious flaws amongst the 3 aforementioned lads. At 28 Lowe won't improve, imo. Stockdale may as Larmour may.

Yes you are dismissing players. You do again in this post.
Stockdale was and can be one of the best winger in the World. Throwing him out of a team for the odd defense error is unbelievable to me. Loads of wingers all around the World make errors yet the team works around them because of what they can do at the other end of the pitch

The Larmour high ball thing is blown out of all proportion, again a potential World Class player and you just want to dump him out of the team. His performance in the 6 nations in 2020 before Covid was great. Just look at him v Exeter last week, I don't remember seeing an issue with high ball?

Lowe has 6 caps,......he is one of the best wingers in the Europe yet you want to dump his because he played a few games when the entire team was playing muck?

What is the plan next? well we need to dump Furlong because he isn't great at jumping in the line out?

It is a team sport, different players add different strength and weakness. People complain about Ireland been boring. Yet the most exciting players available to Ireland you want to dump them all.

As I said, bring in Balacoune, he will make a mistake and you can jump all over him and tell us how terrible he is. Then move onto the next.

Jump_In_Jack

Lowe hasn’t been hood enough for Ireland to get another call up anytime soon.
I’d rather see Chris Farrell start on the wing than bother with Lowe again.
We should be getting wingers with pace out wide, like Zebo and Baloucoune with Keenan at fullback would be a good back three.
Larmour or Stockdale off the bench.

TRC10

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Lowe hasn’t been hood enough for Ireland to get another call up anytime soon.

James Lowe has been probably the best winger in Europe since 2017, averaging a try every 1.5 games.

James Lowe comes into the Ireland team and misses a few tackles. And suddenly "he's crap" "he was never any good" "he can't do it against good players" "he's a pro14 level player".

In Lowe's first game back for Leinster since the 6 Nations, he makes tonnes of metres, beats defenders for fun and scores a try against the European Champions.

Funny that...

thomond2006

Lowe can carry Zebo's bags in camp.

Dubinusa

sebdavis wrote: »

Yes you are dismissing players. You do again in this post.
Stockdale was and can be one of the best winger in the World. Throwing him out of a team for the odd defense error is unbelievable to me. Loads of wingers all around the World make errors yet the team works around them because of what they can do at the other end of the pitch

The Larmour high ball thing is blown out of all proportion, again a potential World Class player and you just want to dump him out of the team. His performance in the 6 nations in 2020 before Covid was great. Just look at him v Exeter last week, I don't remember seeing an issue with high ball?

Lowe has 6 caps,......he is one of the best wingers in the Europe yet you want to dump his because he played a few games when the entire team was playing muck?

What is the plan next? well we need to dump Furlong because he isn't great at jumping in the line out?

It is a team sport, different players add different strength and weakness. People complain about Ireland been boring. Yet the most exciting players available to Ireland you want to dump them all.

As I said, bring in Balacoune, he will make a mistake and you can jump all over him and tell us how terrible he is. Then move onto the next.

Over reaction? I'm not dismissing anyone. Just pointing out the obvious. I hope Stockdale improves. I hope Larmour improves and Lowe also. My point is that Balacoune looks like a more complete package. I believe that Larmour can be world class. He has got to improve his fielding though.
If Lowe can't fix his tackling, he shouldn't be selected. Stockdale also, although I think Stockdale is a better option atm.

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

James Lowe has been probably the best winger in Europe since 2017, averaging a try every 1.5 games.

James Lowe comes into the Ireland team and misses a few tackles. And suddenly "he's crap" "he was never any good" "he can't do it against good players" "he's a pro14 level player".

In Lowe's first game back for Leinster since the 6 Nations, he makes tonnes of metres, beats defenders for fun and scores a try against the European Champions.

Funny that...

James Lowe has a pack dominating virtually all opposition to a degree he will never have when playing at international level you dont have a true appreciation of his weaknesses etc.
In no way can you call him best winger in Europe because of having advantage of playing off a platform that 90% of wingers dont have/would kill to have
Its somewhere in between the he's crap and beats defenders for fun. I dont think he is as good as some have made him out to be but you cant totally dismiss him either.

Louis Friend

TRC10 wrote: »

James Lowe has been probably the best winger in Europe since 2017, averaging a try every 1.5 games.

James Lowe comes into the Ireland team and misses a few tackles. And suddenly "he's crap" "he was never any good" "he can't do it against good players" "he's a pro14 level player".

In Lowe's first game back for Leinster since the 6 Nations, he makes tonnes of metres, beats defenders for fun and scores a try against the European Champions.

Funny that...

Because international rugby is a step up from club rugby...Lowe’s chronic weaknesses get exposed

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Yes you are dismissing players. You do again in this post.
Stockdale was and can be one of the best winger in the World. Throwing him out of a team for the odd defense error is unbelievable to me. Loads of wingers all around the World make errors yet the team works around them because of what they can do at the other end of the pitch

The Larmour high ball thing is blown out of all proportion, again a potential World Class player and you just want to dump him out of the team. His performance in the 6 nations in 2020 before Covid was great. Just look at him v Exeter last week, I don't remember seeing an issue with high ball?

Lowe has 6 caps,......he is one of the best wingers in the Europe yet you want to dump his because he played a few games when the entire team was playing muck?

Mentioning a player's weaknesses does not equate to dismissing them, nor does having a preference for a selection of one player over another.

sebdavis wrote: »

What is the plan next? well we need to dump Furlong because he isn't great at jumping in the line out?

How do you expect your other points to be taken seriously with stuff like this?

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

James Lowe has a pack dominating virtually all opposition to a degree he will never have when playing at international level you dont have a true appreciation of his weaknesses etc.
In no way can you call him best winger in Europe because of having advantage of playing off a platform that 90% of wingers dont have/would kill to have
Its somewhere in between the he's crap and beats defenders for fun. I dont think he is as good as some have made him out to be but you cant totally dismiss him either.

This is just golden. Exeter Chiefs are literally the best team in Europe (other than Leinster), known for having the strongest forward pack, and you're dissmising his performance against them? Leinster didn't dominate them for the whole game. Other teams Lowe has done it against include Saracens, Munster, Toulouse, Wasps and Scarlets (in 2018 when they we're really good).

His record at Heineken Cup level is 9 tries in 17 games. Thats better than a try every 2nd game.

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

James Lowe has been probably the best winger in Europe since 2017, averaging a try every 1.5 games.

James Lowe comes into the Ireland team and misses a few tackles. And suddenly "he's crap" "he was never any good" "he can't do it against good players" "he's a pro14 level player".

In Lowe's first game back for Leinster since the 6 Nations, he makes tonnes of metres, beats defenders for fun and scores a try against the European Champions.

Funny that...

Not all missed tackle stats are made equally. Ringrose is one player that is brilliant at identifying when to shoot out of the line. Often, he scrags the attacker, with the supporting defender coming in to complete the tackle. What is a positive defensive contribution behind the gainline will go down as a missed tackle for Ringose.

The problem with Lowe is that his mistakes and missed tackles were leading directly to tries conceded. We can't ignore that.

The positives you've mentioned for him with regards Leinster are all attacking traits, and that's not the issue with him. He needs to shore up his defensive mistakes. If he can do that, I'd expect him to be involved again. But we don't need to make out his defensive mistakes aren't an issue either.

sebdavis

Dubinusa wrote: »

Over reaction? I'm not dismissing anyone. Just pointing out the obvious. I hope Stockdale improves. I hope Larmour improves and Lowe also. My point is that Balacoune looks like a more complete package. I believe that Larmour can be world class. He has got to improve his fielding though.
If Lowe can't fix his tackling, he shouldn't be selected. Stockdale also, although I think Stockdale is a better option atm.

Based on what is Balacoune more complete package? He has played a few games in the Pro14. Yes he scored a great non-try v Leinster. A couple of games in Europe. Nothing to suggest so far he is "a complete package"? I doubt he would claim that himself

I hope he can transfer to international stage and I hope he gets capped soon, but at this stage I don't know how anyone could claim that he is a complete package and superior to current internationals. As I already said it seems a few people just want to throw away player and look at the new shiny player. Then as soon as he makes an error throw him away.

Stockdale is 25, has played 34 times and scored 18 tries, a record the majority of wingers in the World would love. In international rugby yes Stockdale is better than Lowe who has played 6 games, 6 games in an Ireland team which was seriously misfiring in every position.

Throwing people out of team/squad because of one minor issue in their game would mena you have no players left in the squad

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

Because international rugby is a step up from club rugby...Lowe’s chronic weaknesses get exposed

Here's one for you. How many missed tackles from Stockdale can you remember from 2018? Barely any.

Now how many can you remember in 2019 and 2020? I can think of 3 or 4 just off the top of my head.

How many missed tackles can you remember from Lowe playing for Leinster? Not many.

You see where I'm going with this?

The performance of the team matters a whole lot. Yes Lowe has defensive vulnerabilities. That doesn't mean he's not good enough to play for Ireland.

Stockdale didn't become a bad defender in 2019. The team got worse, thus his weaknesses were exposed.

Same thing with Lowe. He didn't become a bad defender when he put on a green jersey. He went from a good Leinster team with good coaches to a poor Ireland team with inferior coaches.

Clegg

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm just here to read Clegg's latest outrageous take.

I've cancelled myself for being racist.

sebdavis

Louis Friend wrote: »

Because international rugby is a step up from club rugby...Lowe’s chronic weaknesses get exposed

Drop any player into a team misfiring and they will struggle. Especially a new player. Ireland have been very very average(been kind) since 2018

Lets not forget up till the England game you could ask any rugby person in the World what Ireland was trying to do and they would struggle to answer. Yet people are complaining about the winger.

If Ireland play the same way they did in the first few match's of the 6 nations and you replace Lowe with Balacoune I think you will find people calling for Balacoune head now. Lowe made errors, nobody is saying he didn't by the way.

Louis Friend

TRC10 wrote: »

Here's one for you. How many missed tackles from Stockdale can you remember from 2018? Barely any.

Now how many can you remember in 2019 and 2020? I can think of 3 or 4 just off the top of my head.

How many missed tackles can you remember from Lowe playing for Leinster? Not many.

You see where I'm going with this?

The performance of the team matters a whole lot. Yes Lowe has defensive vulnerabilities. That doesn't mean he's not good enough to play for Ireland.

Stockdale didn't become a bad defender in 2019. The team got worse, thus his weaknesses were exposed.

Same thing with Lowe. He didn't become a bad defender when he put on a green jersey. He went from a good Leinster team with good coaches to a poor Ireland team with inferior coaches.

Stockdale spent some time at fullback and injured so it’s not really a fair comparison.

It’s hard to describe James Lowe debut season with Ireland as anything other than a disaster. Shades of Neil Francis’ comment regarding Neil Best all those years ago, “he won two caps today, his first and his last”.

sebdavis

Louis Friend wrote: »

Stockdale spent some time at fullback and injured so it’s not really a fair comparison.

It’s hard to describe James Lowe debut season with Ireland as anything other than a disaster. Shades of Neil Francis’ comment regarding Neil Best all those years ago, “he won two caps today, his first and his last”.

Played 6 times, scored 1 try.....picked for all 6 nations game bar the England game.
Showed a couple of moment of his skills
Until the England game how would you describe the Ireland teams performance in the 6 nations?

theVersatile

Guys like Beirne, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, Connor and Henshaw were able to shine under Farrells Irish set up. Blaming Farrell for Lowe's underwhelming performances is deflecting.

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

Stockdale spent some time at fullback and injured so it’s not really a fair comparison.

It’s hard to describe James Lowe debut season with Ireland as anything other than a disaster. Shades of Neil Francis’ comment regarding Neil Best all those years ago, “he won two caps today, his first and his last”.

Stockdale played 4 games at 15. 2 of which were against Italy and Georgia. It's a perfect comparison.

And your Lowe comment proves my point. When a player is world class at the very highest level of the club game, but a 'disaster' when he wears a green jersey, I think it's fairly evident that the issue isn't purely with the player.