Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sebdavis

theVersatile wrote: »

Guys like Beirne, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, Connor and Henshaw were able to shine under Farrells Irish set up. Blaming Farrell for Lowe's underwhelming performances is deflecting.

How did the forwards do before POC came in for this 6 nations?

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Throwing people out of team/squad because of one minor issue in their game would mena you have no players left in the squad

Do you really think Lowe’s mistakes were one minor issue?

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

Guys like Beirne, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, Connor and Henshaw were able to shine under Farrells Irish set up. Blaming Farrell for Lowe's underwhelming performances is deflecting.

Wingers are the position most reliant on a functioning team.

When the team plays well, they score the tries and are worshipped.

When the team plays badly, they tend to be exposed the most and thus take most of the flack.

They aren't like back rows or centres who can run around hitting rucks and making tackles in a **** team.

Louis Friend

TRC10 wrote: »

Stockdale played 4 games at 15. 2 of which were against Italy and Georgia. It's a perfect comparison.

And your Lowe comment proves my point. When a player is world class at the very highest level of the club game, but a 'disaster' when he wears a green jersey, I think it's fairly evident that the issue isn't purely with the player.

No it doesn’t!

It’s a step up.

Guys who are good at club level can be badly exposed when they move up to a higher level.

Less time, less space, more prep by teams to find weaknesses.

Better players.

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

No it doesn’t!

It’s a step up.

Guys who are good at club level can be badly exposed when they move up to a higher level.

Less time, less space, more prep by teams to find weaknesses.

Better players.

You're missing the point. This isn't a player who is a good club player but can't quite make the step up. (And don't take that quote out of context, I just know you will)

This is a guy who is regularly the standout player at the very highest level of the club game (And even Robbie Henshaw said the Exeter game was test standard). Yet, at the next level up, he's as you said, a "disaster".

When it's such an extreme to the other, It's pretty clear the issue isn't 100% with the player.

And don't use the "better players'' argument. Exeter had Cowan-Dickie, Harry Williams, J.Hill, JGray, Simmonds, Slade, Devoto and Hogg

sebdavis

Louis Friend wrote: »

No it doesn’t!

It’s a step up.

Guys who are good at club level can be badly exposed when they move up to a higher level.

Less time, less space, more prep by teams to find weaknesses.

Better players.

Lowe worst game in 6 nations was v Scotland

TRC10

sebdavis wrote: »

Lowe worst game in 6 nations was v Scotland

Exactly. Exeter Chiefs, Saracens and Toulouse would eat Scotland for breakfast.

nerd69

Ahh lads lowe has plenty in the bag from a kicking or ball in hand perspective but how you can look at his defensive performances internationaly and think it was the system I have no idea

sebdavis

nerd69 wrote: »

Ahh lads lowe has plenty in the bag from a kicking or ball in hand perspective but how you can look at his defensive performances internationaly and think it was the system I have no idea

Lowe made mistakes, but the posts here are saying he isn't good enough to play again for Ireland which is rubbish.

Louis Friend

There must be something in the Irish psyche that draws people to flaky overrated left wingers.

nerd69

sebdavis wrote: »

Lowe made mistakes, but the posts here are saying he isn't good enough to play again for Ireland which is rubbish.

Where they? I saw a few saying he needs to go improved defensivly to get back into the team that seems reasonable to me

TRC10

nerd69 wrote: »

Ahh lads lowe has plenty in the bag from a kicking or ball in hand perspective but how you can look at his defensive performances internationaly and think it was the system I have no idea

Lowe's defense is weak. Literally nobody is arguing that.

But so is Stockdale's. But Stockdale wasn't badly exposed in 2018, because he was playing in a good team.

Lowe doesn't get badly exposed for Leinster, because he plays for a good team.

Stockdale didn't get exposed v England, because Ireland played well.

When teams play badly, wingers get exposed. I guess thats what I'm trying to say. And calling for Lowe's head because he got exposed playing for a poor Ireland team is ridiculous.

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

There must be something in the Irish psyche that draws people to flaky overrated left wingers.

And the 2015 All Black selectors psyche it would seem.

nerd69

TRC10 wrote: »

Lowe's defense is weak. Literally nobody is arguing that.

But so is Stockdale's. But Stockdale wasn't badly exposed in 2018, because he was playing in a good team.

Lowe doesn't get badly exposed for Leinster, because he plays for a good team.

Stockdale didn't get exposed v England, because Ireland played well.

When teams play badly, wingers get exposed. I guess thats what I'm trying to say. And calling for Lowe's head because he got exposed playing for a poor Ireland team is ridiculous.

Right but it's reasonable to say he needs to take a step back improve defensivly and come back with a vengeance right?

I think the he was exposed/bad system angle is leaving him off the hook to be honest even if you ignore the positioning issues he had and blame them on the system.(which I don't) I believe he missed as many tackles as he made or something crazy like that. Earls playing in the same team in the same games was fine. I don't think anyone saying he's a bad player or shouldn't play again but he's got some fairly major work ons in a particularly important part of the game

TRC10

nerd69 wrote: »

Right but it's reasonable to say he needs to take a step back improve defensivly and come back with a vengeance right?

I think the he was exposed/bad system angle is leaving him off the hook to be honest even if you ignore the positioning issues he had and blame them on the system.(which I don't) I believe he missed as many tackles as he made or something crazy like that. Earls playing in the same team in the same games was fine. I don't think anyone saying he's a bad player or shouldn't play again but he's got some fairly major work ons in a particularly important part of the game

How am I letting him off the hook? Read the first sentence.

I'm not blaming the system. Lowe missed tackles he should make, 100%.

It's very easy to jump on the position that is the most reliant on playing in a functioning team.

I think 2018 proves that people don't really care if a winger is weak defensively, as long as the team is playing well and they're scoring tries.

thomond2006

Lowe was unlucky in the sense that he rarely got the ball in positions where his strengths are obvious. He's not the quickest but he's very difficult to put down and can provide excellent go-forward as we saw in the Exeter game.

Unfortunately the defensive issues against Scotland were so glaring that Farrell had no choice but to drop him. Stockdale's return to fitness was timely also. The defensive issues haven't been an anomaly in Lowe's career in Ireland either, it's just it's rarely exposed/remembered in games where Leinster are putting 50 on Dragons or Benetton.

sebdavis

nerd69 wrote: »

Right but it's reasonable to say he needs to take a step back improve defensivly and come back with a vengeance right?

I think the he was exposed/bad system angle is leaving him off the hook to be honest even if you ignore the positioning issues he had and blame them on the system.(which I don't) I believe he missed as many tackles as he made or something crazy like that. Earls playing in the same team in the same games was fine. I don't think anyone saying he's a bad player or shouldn't play again but he's got some fairly major work ons in a particularly important part of the game

Lowe has a weakness, every player has a weakness. The job of the coach is to protect against the weakness and magnify the good elements of the player
Something which in Lowe case Leinster can do, in Stockdale case Joe could do
The problem I see with the current regime is they don’t seem to have the ability. Our pack was terrible, worst line out and poor scrum. POC comes in and bang, what a difference.
From what I can see Catt is poor, even McKinlay said he struggled to see what Catt was doing and he was a huge defender of his.
My concern is the England game was a freak performance, it will return to the normal performance next time, hopefully wrong, but if it does then it won’t matter who is on the wing because they will end up Been the scapegoat

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Lowe has a weakness, every player has a weakness. The job of the coach is to protect against the weakness and magnify the good elements of the player
Something which in Lowe case Leinster can do, in Stockdale case Joe could do
The problem I see with the current regime is they don’t seem to have the ability. Our pack was terrible, worst line out and poor scrum. POC comes in and bang, what a difference.
From what I can see Catt is poor, even McKinlay said he struggled to see what Catt was doing and he was a huge defender of his.
My concern is the England game was a freak performance, it will return to the normal performance next time, hopefully wrong, but if it does then it won’t matter who is on the wing because they will end up Been the scapegoat

The job of the coach is also to select the team tho. And Farrell clearly decided that his weaknesses were too significant to continue selecting him.

TRC10

aloooof wrote: »

The job of the coach is also to select the team tho. And Farrell clearly decided that his weaknesses were too significant to continue selecting him.

And yet a better coach of a better team selects him for a European 1/4 final

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

And yet a better coach of a better team selects him for a European 1/4 final

By definition, Leo has fewer players to select from.
And by definition, a 6 Nations game against England is a higher level than a European 1/4 Final.

I’m not suggesting he should be discarded to never play again. But you seem to be blaming the coaching ticket for errors that, to me, looked much more like individual errors.

As another poster pointed out, if they were systemic / coaching issues, how come Earls wasn’t anywhere near as exposed? It’s cos he’s a better defender.

TRC10

aloooof wrote: »

By definition, Leo has fewer players to select from.
And by definition, a 6 Nations game against England is a higher level than a European 1/4 Final.

I’m not suggesting he should be discarded to never play again. But you seem to be blaming the coaching ticket for errors that, to me, looked much more like individual errors.

As another poster pointed out, if they were systemic / coaching issues, how come Earls wasn’t anywhere near as exposed? It’s cos he’s a better defender.

I actually think we're in agreement on pretty much everything.

Of course Earls is a better defender. Only a fool would suggest otherwise.

Of course Lowe made individual errors. Only a fool would suggest otherwise.

It's just interesting, that nobody cared about Stockdale's defensive shortcomings until 2019 when Ireland started playing badly. Up until then he was a god.

Earls is a hardworking pitbull of a winger but he's only scored 14 tries against tier one nations in his 13 year old international career. When Stockdale scored 7 tries in the 2018 6 nations, Earl's scored 1 against Italy.

And I guarantee you, if Ireland start playing well again and Lowe is scoring tries like he does for Leinster, nobody will give a **** about his defense.

Jump_In_Jack

TRC10 wrote: »

James Lowe has been probably the best winger in Europe since 2017, averaging a try every 1.5 games.

James Lowe comes into the Ireland team and misses a few tackles. And suddenly "he's crap" "he was never any good" "he can't do it against good players" "he's a pro14 level player".

In Lowe's first game back for Leinster since the 6 Nations, he makes tonnes of metres, beats defenders for fun and scores a try against the European Champions.

Funny that...

The try was a gimme, handed to him by Keenan who created the opportunity, Lowe was handed a free walk over the line from a few metres out. Not exactly worth boasting about.
Dave Kearney was robbed, he deserved to hold his place ahead of Lowe for that match.

Dubinusa

sebdavis wrote: »

Based on what is Balacoune more complete package? He has played a few games in the Pro14. Yes he scored a great non-try v Leinster. A couple of games in Europe. Nothing to suggest so far he is "a complete package"? I doubt he would claim that himself

I hope he can transfer to international stage and I hope he gets capped soon, but at this stage I don't know how anyone could claim that he is a complete package and superior to current internationals. As I already said it seems a few people just want to throw away player and look at the new shiny player. Then as soon as he makes an error throw him away.

Stockdale is 25, has played 34 times and scored 18 tries, a record the majority of wingers in the World would love. In international rugby yes Stockdale is better than Lowe who has played 6 games, 6 games in an Ireland team which was seriously misfiring in every position.

Throwing people out of team/squad because of one minor issue in their game would mena you have no players left in the squad

I am not t h r o w I n g a n y o n e o u t o f t h e s q u a d.
The Zebo/Stockdsle/Lowe all in the picture for the squad. I am pointing out that they are ALL weak defensively. On the other wing, Larmour has issues.
I have seen Balacoune a few times and he appears to have a complete set of attributes. If it translates up to international standards, Balacoune will be in the mix and should be.
So... for the last time. I AM NOT DISMISSING ANYONE WHO CAN'T TACKLE FROM THE TEAM

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

And I guarantee you, if Ireland start playing well again and Lowe is scoring tries like he does for Leinster, nobody will give a **** about his defense.

I take your point; results are all that matter and, as they say, history is written by the winners.

But, imo, this is overlooking the material impact Lowe's errors had on results. Each of the Wales, France and Scotland games were one score games. By any measure, his form wasn't good. It's not like he was dropped after one error either.

If Lowe is scoring a try a game but responsible for conceding 2, then I think people will absolutely give a **** about his defense.

Dubinusa

At 28 years old, Lowe has less time to turn it around! It can be done, of course. I hope it can be fixed. Stockdale is younger and has more scope to improve because he's younger.
Zebo is a different beast. He's had some digs at management and by his own admission is harder to coach. That said, if he performs, he should be selected.
I don't think that we are particularly strong on the wing. Conway has lost form, Earls is older and Larmour has his own problems.
Imo, Balacoune is the next lad up. If he performs to the level required, great. After him, we are looking at DK? Who else is there?

Was just listening to O'Gara there on off the ball and he was asked about fullback with Zebo's return.

He said Keenan was the incumbent and had performed excellently and Zebo would have to get into camp first and then perform in training. Felt he could do it though and would add a lot for both Munster and Ireland.

Former Former Former

Deleted User wrote: »

Was just listening to O'Gara there on off the ball and he was asked about fullback with Zebo's return.

He said Keenan was the incumbent and had performed excellently and Zebo would have to get into camp first and then perform in training. Felt he could do it though and would add a lot for both Munster and Ireland.

This is exactly it.

He's never going to just walk into the test side, the Irish management clearly don't rate him that highly and Keenan is a revelation.

However, he's going to be first choice for Munster and playing Champions Cup rugby. If he can show that he's a stand-out at that level, then he'll get his shot at a green jersey.

He probably needs to show that he's matured as a person too, tbh. He did himself no favours with the manner of his departure or some of his comments while he was away.

All that said, there's a good chance he'll be in the mix come the Autumn Internationals.

Interested Observer

Deleted User wrote: »

Was just listening to O'Gara there on off the ball and he was asked about fullback with Zebo's return.

He said Keenan was the incumbent and had performed excellently and Zebo would have to get into camp first and then perform in training. Felt he could do it though and would add a lot for both Munster and Ireland.

Listened to it as well, he was fairly unequivocal that if he was picking an Ireland team for a game tomorrow he'd pick Keenan.

molloyjh

And so ends the Age of Relative Peace. The Age of Zebo vs Lowe has begun. Great. Just bloody great.

Sanjuro

Deleted User wrote: »

Was just listening to O'Gara there on off the ball and he was asked about fullback with Zebo's return.

He said Keenan was the incumbent and had performed excellently and Zebo would have to get into camp first and then perform in training. Felt he could do it though and would add a lot for both Munster and Ireland.

Bit of a statement of the obvious, really, isn't it? Any player has to earn their place in a team. Play brilliantly, get picked. Play like a drain, don't. All this talk of whether Zebo deserves to play for Ireland is entirely dependent on how he'll play for Munster. Why there's any more debate about it is beyond me.