Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Buer

sebdavis wrote: »

Problem is if he goes abroad he will be on huge money and will be playing every game possible. Why would they rest him? he would be flogged and that is not good for him or Ireland.

They don't flog players. This is something that Gerry Thornley used trot out as often as possible back in the day when he was the mouthpiece of the IRFU and it appears to have really stuck in the minds of Irish supporters.

Look at the number of appearances of the top players in France. Beale has 12 appearances in the T14 this season. Etzebeth has 13. Vito has 8. TKB has 15 (12 starts). Skelton has 15. Kolbe has 13. Arnold has 10.

That's from 20 T14 games thus far. Injuries probably played a part once or twice but, as you can see, guys aren't flogged. They're given down weeks and these are also guys who haven't been playing test rugby. A large portion of their games are going to be against Brive, Pau, Bayonne, Agen etc. which isn't close to the intensity of test rugby.

A player in Ireland playing 12 matches for Leinster plus 10 test matches for Ireland in a season is going to end up with more miles on the clock ultimately than someone playing 20-25 games in the T14 with no test matches, training camps, end of season tour etc.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

They don't flog players. This is something that Gerry Thornley used trot out as often as possible back in the day when he was the mouthpiece of the IRFU and it appears to have really stuck in the minds of Irish supporters.

Look at the number of appearances of the top players in France. Beale has 12 appearances in the T14 this season. Etzebeth has 13. Vito has 8. TKB has 15 (12 starts). Skelton has 15. Kolbe has 13. Arnold has 10.

That's from 20 T14 games thus far. Injuries probably played a part once or twice but, as you can see, guys aren't flogged. They're given down weeks and these are also guys who haven't been playing test rugby. A large portion of their games are going to be against Brive, Pau, Bayonne, Agen etc. which isn't close to the intensity of test rugby.

A player in Ireland playing 12 matches for Leinster plus 10 test matches for Ireland in a season is going to end up with more miles on the clock ultimately than someone playing 20-25 games in the T14 with no test matches, training camps, end of season tour etc.

How many pro 14 games have the top Irish players played?

sebdavis

Buer wrote: »

They don't flog players. This is something that Gerry Thornley used trot out as often as possible back in the day when he was the mouthpiece of the IRFU and it appears to have really stuck in the minds of Irish supporters.

Look at the number of appearances of the top players in France. Beale has 12 appearances in the T14 this season. Etzebeth has 13. Vito has 8. TKB has 15 (12 starts). Skelton has 15. Kolbe has 13. Arnold has 10.

That's from 20 T14 games thus far. Injuries probably played a part once or twice but, as you can see, guys aren't flogged. They're given down weeks and these are also guys who haven't been playing test rugby. A large portion of their games are going to be against Brive, Pau, Bayonne, Agen etc. which isn't close to the intensity of test rugby.

A player in Ireland playing 12 matches for Leinster plus 10 test matches for Ireland in a season is going to end up with more miles on the clock ultimately than someone playing 20-25 games in the T14 with no test matches, training camps, end of season tour etc.

How many games have they played including Europe? Skelton?

Clegg

All this talk if Zebo and Irish outside backs led me down the rabbit hole of YouTube compilations and great Irish players.

For my money the greatest Irish back three player in the pro era is Tommy Bowe and there's no debate to be had. He's just a mile clear of the rest. Brilliant line runner, strong in the air and an excellent finisher.

I admire Earls for maintaining a high level of performance well into his 30's. But at the peak of his ability Bowe just outclasses every back three player we've had in the last 20 years.

https://youtu.be/DHRORbrAVI4

awec

sebdavis wrote: »

Problem is if he goes abroad he will be on huge money and will be playing every game possible. Why would they rest him? he would be flogged and that is not good for him or Ireland.

If the IRFU let him go it would be a disaster in my opinion.

I don't think there is any data at all to suggest that players fare better in Ireland compared to elsewhere. Whether that be longer careers or whatever, it doesn't seem to happen.

thomond2006

sebdavis wrote: »

How many games have they played including Europe? Skelton?

Itsrugby is a good database for this: http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/william-skelton-23589.html

Out of a possible 24 games, Skelton started 17 and came off the bench once.

thomond2006

17 rounds were played in the Top14 before the 2019-20 season was voided.

Only one player in the entire league, Fabrice Metz of Pau, started all 17 games, while 9 players started 16 and 8 players started 15.
Pau were in the Challenge Cup and Metz played 49 minutes in 2 of 6 games.

I'm not bothered with researching the Premiership but Top14's records of player appearances suggest nobody is getting flogged. The lower French clubs like Pau who don't have depth to rotate in the Top14 will use the Challenge Cup to rest starters.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

For me, given how good he is and how crucial a position he plays in, I'd still select him if he was playing abroad. Not many IQ players are going to think of themselves in the same bracket as Furlong; I don't think he'll inspire a diaspora if he still plays for Ireland.

Yep, for me he is in the Sexton at Racing category.

But the rules have tightened since then.

Ireland can't afford to lose him.

Pound for pound he is Ireland's best player.

bilston

theVersatile wrote: »

Infairness, one thing Furlong has going against him in this scenario is that there's a ready made replacement for him right there in Porter. No such obvious superstar back up exists at 10 for Sexton or on the wing for Earls.

I won't comment on the 7s for fear of opening and entirely different can of worms

Porter is good, but he's good like Garry Ringrose.

Tadgh Furlong is good like Brian O'Driscoll. He is world class, one of, if not the best TH in the game. Ireland need him.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

How many pro 14 games have the top Irish players played?

Furlong plays about 9 a season in normal circumstances plus 7-9 European games based on the last 3 full seasons with Leinster. So that's 16-18 games for Leinster plus around 9 or 10 more test matches between autumn, 6N and the summer tour.

If he moved to France, he'd play that number at a maximum between the T14 and Europe and wouldn't have the intensity of test matches or the international travel to the same extent. It's an attractive option when you break it down.

Garda Kenny

Buer wrote: »

They don't flog players. This is something that Gerry Thornley used trot out as often as possible back in the day when he was the mouthpiece of the IRFU and it appears to have really stuck in the minds of Irish supporters.

Look at the number of appearances of the top players in France. Beale has 12 appearances in the T14 this season. Etzebeth has 13. Vito has 8. TKB has 15 (12 starts). Skelton has 15. Kolbe has 13. Arnold has 10.

That's from 20 T14 games thus far. Injuries probably played a part once or twice but, as you can see, guys aren't flogged. They're given down weeks and these are also guys who haven't been playing test rugby. A large portion of their games are going to be against Brive, Pau, Bayonne, Agen etc. which isn't close to the intensity of test rugby.

A player in Ireland playing 12 matches for Leinster plus 10 test matches for Ireland in a season is going to end up with more miles on the clock ultimately than someone playing 20-25 games in the T14 with no test matches, training camps, end of season tour etc.

Ah that’s just showing off. Did you pull those playing figures off the top of your head? How do you even know the list of top foreign players in France? You have a vast knowledge but I think you are Leo’s mouthpiece these days. How long ago did you play with him? Perhaps Clegg can remember also.

irishbucsfan

Garda Kenny wrote: »

Ah that’s just showing off. Did you pull those playing figures off the top of your head? How do you even know the list of top foreign players in France? You have a vast knowledge but I think you are Leo’s mouthpiece these days. How long ago did you play with him? Perhaps Clegg can remember also.

Buer is Bernard Jackman, I heard

Garda Kenny

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Buer is Bernard Jackman, I heard

I was thinking of further back than his Leinster days.

The Inbetween is mine

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Buer is Bernard Jackman, I heard

Ah now...at least Beur makes sense........ sometimes

thomond2006

I hear you're a racist too, Buer.

sebdavis

awec wrote: »

I don't think there is any data at all to suggest that players fare better in Ireland compared to elsewhere. Whether that be longer careers or whatever, it doesn't seem to happen.

If Sexton stayed in France do you think he still would be playing today?

The Inbetween is mine

sebdavis wrote: »

If Sexton stayed in France do you think he still would be playing today?

If my aunty had balls territory here

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I hear you're a racist too, Buer.

That's out of order.

Some of my best friends are racist.

Or something like that.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

That's out of order.

Some of my best friends are racist.

Or something like that.

How Redmondite of you.

Or something like that.

sebdavis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

If my aunty had balls territory here

Excellent response and bang on what I would have expected

thomond2006

You accept then that players aren't flogged. Grand.

Former Former Former

For all the repeated head injuries Sexton has sustained, the only people to actually stand him down for any length of time were the Top 14.

You could say that they're far more concerned about player welfare than we are.

Garda Kenny

Buer wrote: »

Furlong plays about 9 a season in normal circumstances plus 7-9 European games based on the last 3 full seasons with Leinster. So that's 16-18 games for Leinster plus around 9 or 10 more test matches between autumn, 6N and the summer tour.

If he moved to France, he'd play that number at a maximum between the T14 and Europe and wouldn't have the intensity of test matches or the international travel to the same extent. It's an attractive option when you break it down.

Out of interest, I’m asking you as someone who seems to know a lot about the inside track on the game across Europe at least.,.... do you know the training regime or what typical week looks like inside a French club?

I can’t remember where I read it I think ROG said it during his time in Racing that preparation and training was minimal and almost amateur at French clubs. Something like they wanted to enjoy some light physical activity and the nice weather rather than drilling into test levels of preparation and training leading up to games.

Assuming your knowledge stems to premiership mainly I am guessing they have some Johnny frenchies during your career there. I’d be interested to know your take on it and how they prepare. You clearly have a higher level of knowledge than a non-pro player/spectator has

Tommybojangles

Clegg wrote: »

All this talk if Zebo and Irish outside backs led me down the rabbit hole of YouTube compilations and great Irish players.

For my money the greatest Irish back three player in the pro era is Tommy Bowe and there's no debate to be had. He's just a mile clear of the rest. Brilliant line runner, strong in the air and an excellent finisher.

I admire Earls for maintaining a high level of performance well into his 30's. But at the peak of his ability Bowe just outclasses every back three player we've had in the last 20 years.

https://youtu.be/DHRORbrAVI4

I'd love if the thread was more of this and less arguing about how many minutes players play 😁

I wouldn't say anyone comes over to Bowe. As you've said he had everything, no real weakness to his game at his peak. I'd probably have Earls second based on how much he's contributed over such a long time. Probably Shaggy 3rd for me

sebdavis

Thinking more about the Zebo signing it does actual make sense of he can produce his standard form. He is an excellent option on wing or at fullback. Even if he isn’t in the team he is a great option from the bench

Also I guess the plan is for him to make the next World Cup. If we look at the last two WC the strength of the squad was questionable, especially in 2015 but also in 2019 they ended up bringing injured players

If you had a WC squad tomorrow and could bring Zebo, Keenan, Larmour, Stockdale, etc that’s some incredible talent and also game breakers. Also from a “heads up “ rugby it is some serious options

Let’s hope it works out for Ireland....I think everyone would like to see Zebo play again

UAEguy2020

Also it would be interesting to see how Zebo fairs in a Farrell team as he’ll be given more license to play the way he prefers.

Teferi

sebdavis wrote: »

.I think everyone would like to see Zebo play again

Hard pass.

sebdavis

Teferi wrote: »

Hard pass.

??

Former Former Former

sebdavis wrote: »

??

"hard pass" means "absolutely not", ie not everyone wants to see Zebo in green again.

sebdavis

Former Former Former wrote: »

"hard pass" means "absolutely not", ie not everyone wants to see Zebo in green again.

Really? Why not?