Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sprucemoose

mfceiling wrote: »

you're only putting in half a shift then it's curtains.

dunno where this came from regarding zebo but absolute rubbish

mfceiling wrote: »

Not the most skilful or likely to win a game on his own but gets stuck in and is 100% committed in every game he plays.

that's fine and i agree to an extent but you need balance, if you pick a team populated almost exclusively with those types of players you wont get far when it comes to the business end of competitions.

Former Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Never? As in never ever?

If anything, Zebo is one of the great highlight reel players.

Was he though?

1. His heel flick in 2012
2. A lovely pass to Earls in RWC 2015.

Beyond that, he had a lot of really nice finishes but I'm struggling to remember when he took on a good defence and beat them single handed like a Stockdale or Larmour has.

Before I get lynched - he's a good player, just in a very different way to how we wants to be perceived. He's good in the air, a good tackler, great boot and a very good finisher. But he's just not this quicksilver enigma that he is made out to be.

sprucemoose

Former Former Former wrote: »

This is a myth.

Zebo was never as talented as he is made out to be.

it isnt a myth though, many team-mates including trimble himself have said this.

Former Former Former wrote: »

He was at his best when he knuckled down and worked hard.

of course, goes for every player really

Former Former Former wrote: »

I cringe when I hear about his X-factor, it's all bollocks. You know how I know? Because he never showed it on the pitch.

you've never watched a munster or ireland game so?

Former Former Former wrote: »

He was simply never at Rob Kearney's level, in any facet.

true, he was largely playing at a higher level post 2014. Kearney was a fantastic player dont get me wrong, he got a lot of undeserved stick too for a large part of his career, but post rwc 2015 he was lucky to be starting so much for ireland. for a back three player to not score a try between rwc 15 and the final rwc 19 warm up is pretty shocking. in that time zebo had grown into the best option at 15 for ireland by far (seeing as Payne was at 13, TOH was from the west and carbery was and still is insisting on playing 10 for some reason).

sprucemoose

Former Former Former wrote: »

I'm struggling to remember when he took on a good defence and beat them single handed like a Stockdale or Larmour has.

northampton 2012, racing 2012, racing 2013

Former Former Former wrote: »

Before I get lynched - he's a good player, just in a very different way to how we wants to be perceived. He's good in the air, a good tackler, great boot and a very good finisher. But he's just not this quicksilver enigma that he is made out to be.

think you have it (almost) spot on but you forget how good a playmaker he is too, which most of the other back three players dont offer or are at least a good bit less adept at it (except carbery but he still insists hes a 10)

Rigor Mortis

sprucemoose wrote: »

true, he was largely playing at a higher level post 2014. Kearney was a fantastic player dont get me wrong, he got a lot of undeserved stick too for a large part of his career, but post rwc 2015 he was lucky to be starting so much for ireland. for a back three player to not score a try between rwc 15 and the final rwc 19 warm up is pretty shocking. in that time zebo had grown into the best option at 15 for ireland by far (seeing as Payne was at 13, TOH was from the west and carbery was and still is insisting on playing 10 for some reason).

Lads you are losing focus here. The debate is Lowe vs Zebo. That's the schedule for the next 140 weeks with a very brief break for a ROG v Johnny 'masters' debate in a few weeks. In the event of a career ending injury to either show pony we're lining up Healy vs Byrne Jnr as the next spirit sapping war of attrition.

sprucemoose

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

The debate is Lowe vs Zebo.

i thought it was lowe v stockdale for the title of who can get the blame for everything?

mfceiling

sprucemoose wrote: »

dunno where this came from regarding zebo but absolute rubbish

Yeah....no.

sprucemoose

mfceiling wrote: »

Yeah....no.

fantastic argument

but seriously, the idea that zebo doesnt work hard enough is rubbish

Louis Friend

Zebo is like one of those YouTube footballers. You could put together a highlights reel and sell him to some gullible club for big money. And then change your phone number.

It’s quite simple really; guys like Dave Kearney were better because they could do what the coach asked.

Zebo’s “box of tricks” consists of a fake Campo hitch kick, zero pace, toxic tweets, and the epitome of style over substance.

Lest we forget, his contract wasn’t renewed...the French wanted rid of him!

errlloyd

I think he made the most relevant offload in the "Try of the decade" try that Heaslip scored against Italy in the 6 Nations.

ersatz

sprucemoose wrote: »

well to just take the last H cup final as an example, he was generally regarded as being racings most creative player and set up two(i think) of their tries so....

I think he scored two in that game. I don't think anyone here would say Zebo hasn't had days when he has made decisive contributions, everyone knows he is a decent player. I think if you take any the attention he gets for his personality and style he's not way ahead of his competition though. He will have a hard time taking the jersey off Keenan for example, whatever about his prospects in Munster or on the wing for Ireland.

aloooof

Louis Friend wrote: »

Zebo is like one of those YouTube footballers. You could put together a highlights reel and sell him to some gullible club for big money. And then change your phone number.

It’s quite simple really; guys like Dave Kearney were better because they could do what the coach asked.

Zebo’s “box of tricks” consists of a fake Campo hitch kick, zero pace, toxic tweets, and the epitome of style over substance.

Lest we forget, his contract wasn’t renewed...the French wanted rid of him!

That's why Dave Kearney has more caps than Zebo. Amirite!

ClanofLams

Something to be said for a separate Simon Zebo Thread where the bus can continue round in circles without the rest of us with no interest on board.

Paul Smeenus

errlloyd wrote: »

I think he made the most relevant offload in the "Try of the decade" try that Heaslip scored against Italy in the 6 Nations.

The most... "relevant"?

ClanofLams

ClanofLams wrote: »

Something to be said for a separate Simon Zebo Thread where the bus can continue round in circles without the rest of us with no interest on board.

Please god.

Rigor Mortis

ClanofLams wrote: »

Something to be said for a separate Simon Zebo Thread where the bus can continue round in circles without the rest of us with no interest on board.

No! He doesnt deserve his own thread

Yes he does!!!

If he can he deserves his own thread then he should get one.

Of course, but who said otherwise.

salmocab

ClanofLams wrote: »

Something to be said for a separate Simon Zebo Thread where the bus can continue round in circles without the rest of us with no interest on board.

This is the first intelligent post in on the matter.

sprucemoose

Louis Friend wrote: »

Zebo is like one of those YouTube footballers. You could put together a highlights reel and sell him to some gullible club for big money. And then change your phone number.

It’s quite simple really; guys like Dave Kearney were better because they could do what the coach asked.

Zebo’s “box of tricks” consists of a fake Campo hitch kick, zero pace, toxic tweets, and the epitome of style over substance.

zero truth in that whatsoever

theVersatile

Louis Friend wrote: »

Zebo’s “box of tricks” consists of a fake Campo hitch kick, zero pace, toxic tweets, and the epitome of style over substance.

Yes Louis, the former track athlete with an 11 second 100m dash has "zero pace". If you're going to criticise Zebo, at least say something mildly factual (tendancy to drift in and out of games; flamboyant personality) instead of making shi.t up.

hold my beer

Plase make it stop.

Dubinusa

So! Zebo is back! Will boards notice?
I'm glad he's back! The forums will be a total fcukstik.
The Lowe v Zebo v Stockdale debates will be so entertaining.
Meanwhile, Farrell must be lacking his chops. What will happen if none of the above make the cut? What if it's Conway, Larmour or Balacoune?

mfceiling

sprucemoose wrote: »

fantastic argument

but seriously, the idea that zebo doesnt work hard enough is rubbish

You believe he's as hard a working winger as somebody like Earls?

Trimble, McFadden and Dave Kearney all hard working wingers and I don't recall Zebo keeping these lads out of the Ireland team for any long periods of time.

He admitted himself he wasn't a great fan of training or playing to a certain coaches structured style of play.

But yeah he's a grafter.

sprucemoose

mfceiling wrote: »

You believe he's as hard a working winger as somebody like Earls?

Trimble, McFadden and Dave Kearney all hard working wingers and I don't recall Zebo keeping these lads out of the Ireland team for any long periods of time.

He admitted himself he wasn't a great fan of training or playing to a certain coaches structured style of play.

But yeah he's a grafter.

in fairness, nobody works as hard as earls in all probability. yes, at times those mentioned kept him out of the ireland team but were arguably much less 'talented' than zebo and JS had a habit of picking 'solid' over creative players (Rob Kearney and the aforementioned list over Zebo, Payne over Ringrose, Keatley over Jackson/Madigan). Not liking training or structured play doesnt mean he doesnt work hard either

Neil3030

So Dave Kearney is better than Simon Zebo now?

That'll be my first dose of the Ireland thread for this month anyway.

I'll schedule my second dose later next week.

molloyjh

sprucemoose wrote: »

in fairness, nobody works as hard as earls in all probability. yes, at times those mentioned kept him out of the ireland team but were arguably much less 'talented' than zebo and JS had a habit of picking 'solid' over creative players (Rob Kearney and the aforementioned list over Zebo, Payne over Ringrose, Keatley over Jackson/Madigan). Not liking training or structured play doesnt mean he doesnt work hard either

Joe had a system that worked. He picked guys that best suited that. It led to our most successful period in pro rugby, hell it was our most successful period in my lifetime. However he never selected Keatley over Jackson when Jackson was available AFAIK. So there's some serious holes in the above.

There are very few teams out there that don't rely on each player on the pitch putting in the effort in almost every area of the game. Wingers now simply have to be good defenders, good in the ruck etc. So the hard working guys will often find favour at Test level over the talented but less hard working guys. The likes of McFadden set standards. In training and on the pitch he was known for a guy that would give it everything all the time. Guys like that make a team environment.

We heard from ROG years ago, and Drico not long after, that Zebo didn't have great work ethic. That is a negative thing in a team environment like that. It sets a bad standard. And the more senior the player the more harm that stuff does.

Dave_The_Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

So Dave Kearney is better than Simon Zebo now?

Dave Kearney, tries in the Pro 14 (20/21): 8.
Simon Zebo, tries in the Pro 14 (20/21): 0.

Zebo couldn't even score on against Zebre this year. I mean, come on.

QED.

sprucemoose

molloyjh wrote: »

Joe had a system that worked. He picked guys that best suited that. It led to our most successful period in pro rugby, hell it was our most successful period in my lifetime. However he never selected Keatley over Jackson when Jackson was available AFAIK. So there's some serious holes in the above.

and it largely worked best when zebo was on the pitch, up to the time he announced he was going to france? the system worked absolutely, but attacking-wise ireland could be very poor at times.

molloyjh wrote: »

Wingers now simply have to be good defenders, good in the ruck etc.

that is in no way true. even in JS's tenure when the game plan was limited that wasnt even true

molloyjh wrote: »

The likes of McFadden set standards. In training and on the pitch he was known for a guy that would give it everything all the time. Guys like that make a team environment.

that's fine and i agree, however a team and its units needs balance, a mix of workrate with talent tends to win out in the end

molloyjh wrote: »

We heard from ROG years ago.

exactly as you said, years ago. he has been nothing but positive about zebo coming back

Podge_irl

sprucemoose wrote: »

and it largely worked best when zebo was on the pitch, up to the time he announced he was going to france? the system worked absolutely, but attacking-wise ireland could be very poor at times.

Pretty sure the system worked best when Ireland won the GS, a tour in Aus and beat NZ.

Zebo is a good player. He is not good enough for you to change your entire gameplan to suit him.

sprucemoose

Podge_irl wrote: »

Pretty sure the system worked best when Ireland won the GS, a tour in Aus and beat NZ.

hence why i said up to the point when zebo said he was leaving, those happened after he announced it and he was never going to be picked after that (and rightly so)

Podge_irl wrote: »

Zebo is a good player. He is not good enough for you to change your entire gameplan to suit him.

not suggesting that, just saying the idea that he is lazy/not hard working etc and that DK/AT etc were better than him is simply not true

Podge_irl

sprucemoose wrote: »

hence why i said up to the point when zebo said he was leaving, those happened after he announced it and he was never going to be picked after that (and rightly so)

Well that's also questionable to be honest. He played no part in the 2014 6N win and didn't play on Super Saturday in 2015.

He was simply never a key cog in Ireland's game. Which is fine, most players aren't.