Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

nerd69

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Fitzgerald was a far better player than Zero, simple as that.

Is that you luke?

Dubinusa

Realistically Zebo has got to wrench a starting spot at Munster. Easier said than done. I don't know if VanGrann will view him as a fb or a wing. Imo, Haley will be tough to move. As will the wings, bearing in mind there's a couple of good younger lads in the mix also. I doubt Farrell just drops him into the squad, until he earns a call up. I think he's a good option though.

sprucemoose

Dubinusa wrote: »

Realistically Zebo has got to wrench a starting spot at Munster. Easier said than done. I don't know if VanGrann will view him as a fb or a wing. Imo, Haley will be tough to move. As will the wings, bearing in mind there's a couple of good younger lads in the mix also. I doubt Farrell just drops him into the squad, until he earns a call up. I think he's a good option though.

stop making sense

very true though, haley has been great this year after a quiet start last year and he'll be hard to move, on current form he should be probably be just behind keenan in the pecking order for ireland. on form conway and earls are arguably definite starters with daly not a bad option either so it could be tough for zebo to get a starting spot. having said that if he gets a decent run at fb or on the wing he'll probably break back into the irish squad

tgdaly

Anyone have any thoughts on Simon Zebo returning?

CMcsporty

nerd69 wrote: »

Is that you luke?

Unlikely. He would have injured his fingers halfway through the sentence.
Terrible shame his mouth never seemed to be out of action.

Clegg

Luke Fitzgerald is the biggest what if in Irish Rugby that I can remember. In terms of individual ability I'd take Fitz over Zebo and just about any Irish back we've produced in the last 15 years. He was a grand slam winner and Test Lion at the age of 21. He could step a defender better than any Irish player I've ever seen and I include Larmour in that.

The injuries he suffered means he never fulfilled his potential. He always came back strong and put in good performances in his first game back. That's the mark of a very talented player. Other than his poor run of form following his first major injury I.cant remember him ever playing poorly either.

awec

Clegg wrote: »

Luke Fitzgerald is the biggest what if in Irish Rugby that I can remember. In terms of individual ability I'd take Fitz over Zebo and just about any Irish back we've produced in the last 15 years. He was a grand slam winner and Test Lion at the age of 21. He could step a defender better than any Irish player I've ever seen and I include Larmour in that.

The injuries he suffered means he never fulfilled his potential. He always came back strong and put in good performances in his first game back. That's the mark of a very talented player. Other than his poor run of form following his first major injury I.cant remember him ever playing poorly either.

I wouldn't. A player who had a lot of potential and started off his career flying, but never lived up to it in the end. Massively overhyped in hindsight.

Luke Fitz, for all the apparent ability, didn't really score many tries. What was it, 4 tries for Ireland in total?

A winger who can't score is fairly pointless.

Former Former Former

It's impossible to judge Fitzgerald without taking his injuries into account. He could have turned out to be one of our best ever wingers, at minimum he would have been a very good test player (IMO) but from 2010 onwards he was always either injured or just back from injury. It got to the point where any game time he saw was a bonus, and once a coach can't rely on you to be there, he's going to start making other plans.

UAEguy2020

nerd69 wrote: »

Is that you luke?

Is that nostalgia I see.

UAEguy2020

Clegg wrote: »

Luke Fitzgerald is the biggest what if in Irish Rugby that I can remember. In terms of individual ability I'd take Fitz over Zebo and just about any Irish back we've produced in the last 15 years. He was a grand slam winner and Test Lion at the age of 21. He could step a defender better than any Irish player I've ever seen and I include Larmour in that.

The injuries he suffered means he never fulfilled his potential. He always came back strong and put in good performances in his first game back. That's the mark of a very talented player. Other than his poor run of form following his first major injury I.cant remember him ever playing poorly either.

4 tries in 34 games says it all. He was built to play men’s rugby at a younger age, that doesn’t mean he was a better prospect, some take afew years to mature and others are ready straight away, that doesn’t mean one is a better prospect than the other, if anything that make a try tally of 4 in 34 even more dreadful.

its_phil

Former Former Former wrote: »

It's impossible to judge Fitzgerald without taking his injuries into account. He could have turned out to be one of our best ever wingers, at minimum he would have been a very good test player (IMO) but from 2010 onwards he was always either injured or just back from injury. It got to the point where any game time he saw was a bonus, and once a coach can't rely on you to be there, he's going to start making other plans.

He played 34 times for Ireland. It's not impossible to judge. A decent career and a test Lion is the highest selection honour you can have in my opinion. Drageed us back into the RWC 2015 QF and played his part in 09 Grand Slam as well to be fair.

But he had periods where he wasn't injured and was just bang average like the 2011 season.

If we can all pass judgement on Zebo at 35 caps, I don't know how Fitzgerald is an exemption.

TomsOnTheRoof

As stated above, Fitzgerald played 34 tests for Ireland. He can absolutely be judged on that body of work. He was a decent provincial player and an average international. One try for every eight and a half games played is a very poor return for a winger.

AbusesToilets

its_phil wrote: »

He played 34 times for Ireland. It's not impossible to judge. A decent career and a test Lion is the highest selection honour you can have in my opinion. Drageed us back into the RWC 2015 QF and played his part in 09 Grand Slam as well to be fair.

But he had periods where he wasn't injured and was just bang average like the 2011 season.

If we can all pass judgement on Zebo at 35 caps, I don't know how Fitzgerald is an exemption.

He was also playing at FB for that season iirc, and struggled at it, which led to him being dropped for the WC. Not disimilar to Stockdale in that regard.

Fitz could also have been an international quality 12, which arguably would have been his best position. If he hadn't been ridden with injuries, he likely takes that spot from D'Arcy imo.

Sangre

Fitz also suffered from the "utility back" role and was moved around a lot. His biggest weakness was his lack of a nose for the try line. I think he had a sustained injury free period at a position other than wing he would have shown a lot more.

That being said, we can only judge him on what he actually did. Anything else is just speculation.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

This is what Earls said about him:





Thats a fairly decent endorsement from a fellow team member who actually knows him. As for not liking doing weights - Jerry Flannery and one or two others (maybe Cian Healy) are probably the only players who actually like doing them. It doesn't mean that he is lazy.

Conversely, Sexton said Craig Casay has a work ethic that reminds him of Johnny Wilkinson. I know which I'd prefer on my team.

Former Former Former

its_phil wrote: »

He played 34 times for Ireland. It's not impossible to judge. A decent career and a test Lion is the highest selection honour you can have in my opinion. Drageed us back into the RWC 2015 QF and played his part in 09 Grand Slam as well to be fair.

But he had periods where he wasn't injured and was just bang average like the 2011 season.

If we can all pass judgement on Zebo at 35 caps, I don't know how Fitzgerald is an exemption.

I guess there's a 'what if' element about Fitzgerald.

Like, he had achieved more by the age of 21 than most players achieve in a lifetime; started all 5 games of a Grand Slam, started all 9 games of a winning HEC campaign, started a test for the Lions. Most players would kill to have that CV on the day they retire and he did it while still in short pants. He wasn't an exciting prospect, he was a proven top class player.

Then the injuries started and they never really stopped.

Would he have stayed at that level, would he have improved to become genuinely world class, would he have gone backwards? It's all speculation obviously but it's valid speculation.

thomond2006

thomond2006

Dubinusa

I think Fitz is one that could have been great. If only he wasn't prone to injuries. He's one lad that was ridiculously unlucky with his health. I think what was so good with Luke is that he could fit in anywhere, imo. I wouldn't worry about him playing center or either wing.
But! His career was a stop/start affair marred by injury spells.

1. Porter
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong

The soon to be strongest front row Ireland has ever fielded. Discuss.

Thrashssacre

[Deleted User] wrote: »

1. Porter
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong

The soon to be strongest front row Ireland has ever fielded. Discuss.

I'll talk about it when one of those players isn't out of contract in a few weeks.....

.ak

awec wrote: »

I wouldn't. A player who had a lot of potential and started off his career flying, but never lived up to it in the end. Massively overhyped in hindsight.

Luke Fitz, for all the apparent ability, didn't really score many tries. What was it, 4 tries for Ireland in total?

A winger who can't score is fairly pointless.

Ah, that's a bit black and white for me. He was at the fore of a generation of wingers that broke the mould on what it meant to play in a specialized position. The days of the flyers hanging out on the wing until the ball came out to them was disappearing. Luke offered so much around the park it just didn't matter what his try tally was, when you stepped, tackled, and passed like him any team he played for he benefitted, just because someone else got over the line instead. Thankfully rugby is a 15 man team sport, and sometimes you just get these lads who are excellent rugby footballers.

It's a testament to his abilities that people are still talking about him now, despite being a winger who can't score.

TRC10

Deleted User wrote: »

1. Porter
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong

The soon to be strongest front row Ireland has ever fielded. Discuss.

Good chance Porter is on a Lions tour as a Tighthead. Meaning if he is to move back to Loosehead, he won't start the transition until August, meaning realistically he won't play there for Ireland until 2022. And if Furlong leaves he'll be staying at Tighthead.

So to be honest it might not be so soon.

BoardsMember

Massive Luke fan here too. Surprised by his stats in Green. The way he influenced the game off the bench against Argentina in the RWC. For that alone he has legendary status for me. And I realise that is silly. Again coming back from injury, if I remember correctly.

Some players that you see in the flesh you realise they are special. Luke was one such player. Sorry. Manlove. It kills me how appalling the podcast is.

mfceiling

.ak wrote: »

Ah, that's a bit black and white for me. He was at the fore of a generation of wingers that broke the mould on what it meant to play in a specialized position. The days of the flyers hanging out on the wing until the ball came out to them was disappearing. Luke offered so much around the park it just didn't matter what his try tally was, when you stepped, tackled, and passed like him any team he played for he benefitted, just because someone else got over the line instead. Thankfully rugby is a 15 man team sport, and sometimes you just get these lads who are excellent rugby footballers.

It's a testament to his abilities that people are still talking about him now, despite being a winger who can't score.

Ah Mr Bond, I've been expecting you.

Louis Friend

Clegg wrote: »

Luke Fitzgerald is the biggest what if in Irish Rugby that I can remember. In terms of individual ability I'd take Fitz over Zebo and just about any Irish back we've produced in the last 15 years. He was a grand slam winner and Test Lion at the age of 21. He could step a defender better than any Irish player I've ever seen and I include Larmour in that.

The injuries he suffered means he never fulfilled his potential. He always came back strong and put in good performances in his first game back. That's the mark of a very talented player. Other than his poor run of form following his first major injury I.cant remember him ever playing poorly either.

Ciaran Scally would be for me.

AbusesToilets

.ak wrote: »

Ah, that's a bit black and white for me. He was at the fore of a generation of wingers that broke the mould on what it meant to play in a specialized position. The days of the flyers hanging out on the wing until the ball came out to them was disappearing. Luke offered so much around the park it just didn't matter what his try tally was, when you stepped, tackled, and passed like him any team he played for he benefitted, just because someone else got over the line instead. Thankfully rugby is a 15 man team sport, and sometimes you just get these lads who are excellent rugby footballers.

It's a testament to his abilities that people are still talking about him now, despite being a winger who can't score.

He had everything, for me he's the most talented player we've produced since BOD. I wish we could have seen them play together in the centre more. There was just that match against NZ that I remember and he did well there.

TomsOnTheRoof

Fitzgerald has always been overrated and it seems to be worsening with every year that passes. He might have been a good provincial player but he flattered to deceive as an international. He wasn't a particularly incisive winger nor a known finisher. The experiment at fullback, his preferred position, was disappointing and short lived. He was ordinary in a green jersey despite the fact that many here would have you believe he was a generational talent.

Off the top of my head I can count Bowe, Earls, Kearney, Horgan, Dempsey, Hickie, Trimble, Zebo and Stockdale in the professional era alone as superior back three players for Ireland. Geoghegan too if you count the fact he played post 1995. I appreciate that a lot of Leinster fans hold him in high esteem but to suggest he is up there with our best backs is laughable.

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

1. Porter
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong

The soon to be strongest front row Ireland has ever fielded. Discuss.

Thomond! I'll hold your coat.

molloyjh

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Fitzgerald has always been overrated and it seems to be worsening with every year that passes. He might have been a good provincial player but he flattered to deceive as an international. He wasn't a particularly incisive winger nor a known finisher. The experiment at fullback, his preferred position, was disappointing and short lived. He was ordinary in a green jersey despite the fact that many here would have you believe he was a generational talent.

Off the top of my head I can count Bowe, Earls, Kearney, Horgan, Dempsey, Hickie, Trimble, Zebo and Stockdale in the professional era alone as superior back three players for Ireland. Geoghegan too if you count the fact he played post 1995. I appreciate that a lot of Leinster fans hold him in high esteem but to suggest he is up there with our best backs is laughable.

I dont think that was the point being made at all. The point was that he was a big "what if", i.e.that he could have been up there but ended up not being.

And I'd agree with that. For me there were 2 things that got in Fitzgeralds way. The first was the obvious. Injury. The guy seemed to spend more time injured than fit after 2010. That is obviously going to impact any players ability to meet their potential.

The other thing that got in his way was Luke Fitzgerald. The "I'm a fullback" notion or the focus on other elements of his game to the detriment of his attacking game because he felt he needed to be different were things that really hurt his career.

If he could have gotten a good run injury-free and gotten out of his own way he absolutely could have gone on to be one of our best. He took to senior rugby really well at both Leinster and Ireland. He played all of Irelands GS games and was a Test Lion at 21. That doesnt happen off potential alone. It just all went wrong for him from there, in part due to things he could control and in part due to things he couldn't.