Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sprucemoose

connachta wrote: »

He is. Even without tackling:D

of course, thats why he became a nailed on starter for munster as soon as zebo left.........

aloooof

connachta wrote: »

I totally agree with Wootton defence, but some would say he isn't that far from Lowe, and offensively great, not far if not better than the very best... So in the end...

Than the very best? I know Wootton is having a great season, but that seems more than a little overboard to me.

Dubinusa

Can't see Wooten being included. He's just a poor defender. Granted that Lowe is piss poor also, but I think Lowe could be on the outside fairly soon.
Murray could be in with a shout in a couple of years. He looks to be developing nicely. If any Connacht player deserves a look, I think its Blade. Marmion seems to be out of favor and I think Blade could be a decent addition to the squad.
I would hope that Zebo gets to prove himself at Munster first. The likes of Daly and Balacoune are deserving of a chance. I would think that Haley will get another look. He's been good all year. Stockdale may also get a run in the 15 jersey.

sprucemoose

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would think that Haley will get another look. He's been good all year. Stockdale may also get a run in the 15 jersey.

hopefully either of those will get a run, keenan is nailed on as first choice at this stage but the other options arent too clear, hence why i wouldnt be overly surprised if zebo did get back in

TRC10

Dubinusa wrote: »

Stockdale may also get a run in the 15 jersey.

Why...why....why on Earth would we do that?

Keenan is around, Zebo is back, Addison is back. 3 natural, test quality full backs right there. Not to mention Haley who has been good this season.

I was in favour of trying Stockadale at 15 back in October, but it didn't work. He's a winger and every good game he's had for Ireland has been on the wing. I think we should shelve the whole Stockdale at 15 idea.

OneLungDavy

Haley is the most underrated player in Ireland. He's such a solid defender, great tackler, good in the air and can be amazing in attack. He's the type of player I could see excelling at international level in a different system.

theVersatile

I don't quite buy the idea that Zebo has to perform with Munster first before being called in to the squad. Surely if his performance with Racing is to the level required then he's earned his place? Especially for a Summer series, I'd agree with keeping him out if it was a 6N at stake.

If Zebo were to be withheld, I'd hold Addison by the same standard considering he has played so little rugby in the last year plus. Let him get a preseason in Ulster and bring him in during the Autumn if he's performing.

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

So if not Murray, Casey or JGP then who should we look at? 31 year old Cooney? McGrath, who I am a fan if in blue but who has clear deficiencies in some of the primary skill areas? Are there even a few 9s left after that?

Cooney and Blade at least ought to be in the squad. Both are better than Casey and JGP, not to mention Murray.

Former Former Former

It's only two matches and a lot of the squad from the 6N will still be involved. There simply isn't room for all these people to get a run.

TheG0AT

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Haley is the most underrated player in Ireland. He's such a solid defender, great tackler, good in the air and can be amazing in attack. He's the type of player I could see excelling at international level in a different system.

Haley won't be the starting 15 for Munster next season so he's not going to be involved with Ireland. Zebo isn't being brought home to play wing or get splinters in his ass. Haley will 100% be the player to lose out in the back three. In 2 seasons with Munster I've yet to see Haley bring any kind of excitement to a game like Zebo will.

Lets also not forget 12 months ago Keenan hadn't been involved for Ireland and is now on the fringes of a Lions squad.

aloooof

TheG0AT wrote: »

Haley won't be the starting 15 for Munster next season so he's not going to be involved with Ireland. Zebo isn't being brought home to play wing or get splinters in his ass. Haley will 100% be the player to lose out in the back three. In 2 seasons with Munster I've yet to see Haley bring any kind of excitement to a game like Zebo will.

Lets also not forget 12 months ago Keenan hadn't been involved for Ireland and is now on the fringes of a Lions squad.

I think there's a decent chance that, on current form, Conway could be the one who loses out to Zebo. Haley has had a very good season, has been used more for Munster on counter-attack, and in terms of bringing excitement, his try against Connacht on 1 min into this comes to mind. (He's also gotten some good tries vs Ospreys and Clermont this season).

He's also got quite a big boot, but he's still capable of the odd mistake that Keenan just never seems to make tho. But that's a different discussion to where he stands in the Munster pecking order.

sprucemoose

TheG0AT wrote: »

Haley won't be the starting 15 for Munster next season so he's not going to be involved with Ireland. Zebo isn't being brought home to play wing or get splinters in his ass. Haley will 100% be the player to lose out in the back three. In 2 seasons with Munster I've yet to see Haley bring any kind of excitement to a game like Zebo will.

Lets also not forget 12 months ago Keenan hadn't been involved for Ireland and is now on the fringes of a Lions squad.

aloooof wrote: »

I think there's a decent chance that, on current form, Conway could be the one who loses out to Zebo. Haley has had a very good season, has been used more for Munster on counter-attack, and in terms of bringing excitement, his try against Connacht on 1 min into this comes to mind. (He's also gotten some good tries vs Ospreys and Clermont this season).

He's also got quite a big boot, but he's still capable of the odd mistake that Keenan just never seems to make tho.

could easily see zebo on the wing and haley at 15. MH has been so good this season i think he probably deserves to be a nailed on starter as good as zebo is. on current form conway is probably the one to miss out but surely earls is going to start winding down soon?(although i probably wouldve said that a few years ago too and look how good hes been)

TRC10

TheG0AT wrote: »

Haley won't be the starting 15 for Munster next season so he's not going to be involved with Ireland. Zebo isn't being brought home to play wing or get splinters in his ass. Haley will 100% be the player to lose out in the back three. In 2 seasons with Munster I've yet to see Haley bring any kind of excitement to a game like Zebo will.

Lets also not forget 12 months ago Keenan hadn't been involved for Ireland and is now on the fringes of a Lions squad.

I think this is a bit unfair. Obviously Zebo is a big name and it's natural to get excited about having him back, but Haley has been very good this season and has played well in some big games, so I wouldn't be so quick to discard him.

Zebo probably isn't as rapid anymore as he was in his early/mid 20s, and he has put on a fair few kilos in Paris, so I'm not sure how much he'll be playing on the wing. If Conway can find his 2019/2020 form again he starts, as on form he's Munster's best winger IMO. And Earls has yet to show any signs of slowing down. I think there will be a fair bit of rotation between the 4 of them tbh.

Having said that, Munster seem to be playing with a lot more width and freedom in recent weeks, which would really suit Zebo playing in his favoured playmaking 15 role.

starkid

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Murray still looks very slight for a lock. Granted he's 21 and will grow but his frame looks quite small, even compared to someone like Baird.

yeah he's nowhere near physical enough for the top level. A pretty average player, lucky enough to happen to be 6,7.

TRC10

starkid wrote: »

yeah he's nowhere near physical enough for the top level. A pretty average player, lucky enough to happen to be 6,7.

The guy is 21 (baby for a lock) and has started 5 profesional games, and you're writing him off as "pretty average".

Nice one.

starkid

TRC10 wrote: »

The guy is 21 (baby for a lock) and has started 5 profesional games, and you're writing him off as "pretty average".

Nice one.

Yeah from what i've seen he's not good enough. Not a hope he's on the squad this summer. Fantasy stuff.

FACECUTTR

starkid wrote: »

yeah he's nowhere near physical enough for the top level. A pretty average player, lucky enough to happen to be 6,7.

He started against a stacked Munster team in Thomond and was MOTM. Has had a few other excellent performances this season too. He is certainly not average.

ClanofLams

starkid wrote: »

yeah he's nowhere near physical enough for the top level. A pretty average player, lucky enough to happen to be 6,7.

Presume it’s just a troll but if not this is the dumbest comment on this thread in a long time. Quite a feat.

starkid

ClanofLams wrote: »

Presume it’s just a troll but if not this is the dumbest comment on this thread in a long time. Quite a feat.

he's nowhere phyical enough atm to be a top class lock imo. any criticism is trolling now is it? mom in a meaningless rainbow cup game, one game, great.

Its in the context of him being involved with Ireland, personally i don't think he's ever going to be good enough to be an Ireland international.

siltirocker

starkid wrote: »

Yeah from what i've seen he's not good enough. Not a hope he's on the squad this summer. Fantasy stuff.

Must be a high high ceiling you got there pal if 'man of the match' against Munster in Thomond park opposite a hape of internationals and Lions in your first few months and few games of pro rugby is "not good enough".

I swear, where do people get this stuff. . .

Reminds me of your man who said Carty was a 3 or 4 out of 10 at best against Wales, and then about 30 seconds later he was named Man Of The Match. Or my favourite one ever here, from about 10 years back: "Sexton came in at the right time. ROG was a disaster in 2008." The same 2008 O'Gara was Irish Player Of The Year?

ClanofLams

starkid wrote: »

he's nowhere phyical enough atm to be a top class lock imo. Christ any criticism is trolling now is it? mom in a meaningless rainbow cup game, one game, great.

Its in the context of him being involved with Ireland.

Calling him an average player is ridiculous. He’s 21 one of the most promising second rows in the country. Paul O’Connell has already been in contact with him.

As for his physicality (1) he’s still developing (2) he had no problem putting Jean Kleyn back the way last week.

Wegians89

On Niall Murray, with only two matches you’d expect only 3-4 locks will see game time, Ryan, Baird, Dillane and Thornbury say. Absolutely no harm bringing him as an apprentice sort role, similar to how Harry Byrne Casey and Baird had been in squads before.

Neil3030

Lol, first time I ever saw Murray was the other week, and immediately texted my old man, "Connacht have a young lock who just stamped on one lad, and then elbowed another, and he's still on the pitch. Could be one to keep an eye on"

starkid

Who knows in the future.

But at the moment we ahve a serious issue in Ireland with physicality. Get some meat on the lad. There's a reason James Ryan is sitting at home rather than going to the Lions.

We need some serious honesty around our players. Many of them aren't good enough for the top level. I'd put my money on Murray fitting this category. A solid pro, but lacking that something extra to be a regular international.

aloooof

starkid wrote: »

Who knows in the future.

But at the moment we ahve a serious issue in Ireland with physicality. Get some meat on the lad. There's a reason James Ryan is sitting at home rather than going to the Lions.

We need some serious honesty around our players. Many of them aren't good enough for the top level. I'd put my money on Murray fitting this category. A solid pro, but lacking that something extra to be a regular international.

Yes, Conor Murray with 89 Ireland caps and 5 B&I Lions caps is definitely missing something to become a.... regular international??

Squidgy Black

aloooof wrote: »

Yes, Conor Murray with 89 Ireland caps and 5 B&I Lions caps is definitely missing something to become a.... regular international??

Wrong Murray. They're talking about Niall Murray.

theVersatile

aloooof wrote: »

Yes, Conor Murray with 89 Ireland caps and 5 B&I Lions caps is definitely missing something to become a.... regular international??

I don't blame you for skipping the last couple of pages, but it's come back to bite you in the rear end there aloof.

El_Duderino 09

starkid wrote: »

Who knows in the future.

But at the moment we ahve a serious issue in Ireland with physicality. Get some meat on the lad. There's a reason James Ryan is sitting at home rather than going to the Lions.

We need some serious honesty around our players. Many of them aren't good enough for the top level. I'd put my money on Murray fitting this category. A solid pro, but lacking that something extra to be a regular international.

I think your point about Ryan is valid. I think a lot of poeple have bought into the idea that he is a brilliant, world class second row. Even when he comes up against other second rows who routinely outshine him, they don't change their view. Itoje has ben the better second row in all their recent encounters of the last few years. for England and Sarries, and Skelton was a real enforcer in the La Rochelle game. But Ryan is still seen as being at the op level even when his performances are well below the top level.

He was a big prospect when he burst onto the sceene (that was 4 years ago when Ireland went on the tour to Japan while the Lions were away). He has generally had good form since then but i think people are ignoring that he is on a run of poor form at the moment and isn't at or near Lions level. He was even being talked about as an Ireland and Lions captain. I have never seen that kind of leadership in his game. He's a great worker and a tough guy, but this captaincy talk was nonsense.

I hope he can use this summer focus on development or rest or whatever he needs to do to get back on top form. But we should be honest about the level of performance the players are currently on and Ryan is currently not near Lions form.

aloooof

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Wrong Murray. They're talking about Niall Murray.

Ah.... in my defence, it wouldn't have been the worse argument I've seen on here over the last while.

theVersatile wrote: »

I don't blame you for skipping the last couple of pages, but it's come back to bite you in the rear end there aloof.

And it won't be the last time!

Dubinusa

Itoje was very poor this year. Imo, he didn't deserve selection. Neither did Ryan! Ryan was injured quite a lot, so he was always in a bind. Ryan is very good. Massive engine on him and he rarely is gash. His poor performance is rarely truly awful. I think he's bulked up too much. He was better when he was lighter. But, a lock can't really change a game, especially if his team's getting mullered all around him. That has been the case for Leinster and Ireland. The group itself has been poor over the last 3 seasons. Henderson has been in as has Beirne and it doesn't change the fact that up front, we struggle. Ryan is certainly not alone in this. Physically, we are poor all over