Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former

I dunno lads, there are two questions here.

1. Who is the best alternative to Sexton?

2. Is that person good enough to be our starting 10?

The answer to the first may well be Burns, it may even be Carty - but I don't see either of these lads being test level 10s. Same for Ross Byrne and even for Madigan.

Personally, I'd let Sexton limp on for another year or two and move Harry Byrne up to second choice. He's not there yet but with could actually be good enough in years to come, so why not give him the experience now? You could make the same argument for Healy once he gets a few more starts for Munster.

sydthebeat

Louis Friend wrote: »

England did.

No they didn't, he never played for England.

In order to be rejected you have to perform first.

Burns currently is our best second choice, and closer to Sexton lately by virtue of sextons most recent performances

irishbucsfan

Louis Friend wrote: »

England did.

We need Carberry back.

The rest, except for Harry Byrne perhaps, are average.

Madigan has taken too much blame for what happened in 2015 and for weeping like a baby when we beat France. He would represent a decent backup option.

He’s not being disregarded because of 2015.

He’s being disregarded for the same reason he’s never been able to establish himself as a reliable starting option at 10 for any team over his entire career.

irishbucsfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

I dunno lads, there are two questions here.

1. Who is the best alternative to Sexton?

2. Is that person good enough to be our starting 10?

The answer to the first may well be Burns, it may even be Carty - but I don't see either of these lads being test level 10s. Same for Ross Byrne and even for Madigan.

Personally, I'd let Sexton limp on for another year or two and move Harry Byrne up to second choice. He's not there yet but with could actually be good enough in years to come, so why not give him the experience now? You could make the same argument for Healy once he gets a few more starts for Munster.

I’d like to see Byrne given a bit more time to actually challenge for 10 at Leinster before deciding that. His level of exposure is absolutely tiny.

Whether or not he’ll ever be good enough, he should get time to develop without that added pressure

aloooof

Louis Friend wrote: »

Madigan has taken too much blame for what happened in 2015 and for weeping like a baby when we beat France. He would represent a decent backup option.

At the moment, he's a decent backup option for Ulster. Billy Burns has been playing well and given latest form, he's clear 2nd choice behind Sexton at the moment, imo.

Madigan of 2015 might make a decent backup option. I'm not sure sure the 2020 version does tho.

Louis Friend

sydthebeat wrote: »

No they didn't, he never played for England.

In order to be rejected you have to perform first.

Burns currently is our best second choice, and closer to Sexton lately by virtue of sextons most recent performances

Eh, he did. Billy Burns is from England, Bath I think.

He played Under 18s/Schoolboy for England and then he played for the England Under 20s.

sydthebeat

Louis Friend wrote: »

Eh, he did. Billy Burns is from England, Bath I think.

He played Under 18s/Schoolboy for England and then he played for the England Under 20s.

Maybe you need to defer to a dictionary to see what rejected means, cos nothing you've said above equates to that.

Paul Smeenus

Finances are a car crash - for everyone.

If ever we needed a bit of prize money, it's now. We need to give the Six Nations a very serious, concentrated rattle, so the idea of promoting Harry Byrne on the understanding that he'll grow into it is a non-starter for me. Wins now will help the IRFU considerably.


Six Nations 2020 prize money breakdown

Grand Slam: £6m / 1st: £5m
2nd: £3.5m
3rd: £2.5m
4th: £2m
5th: £1.5m
6th: £1m

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/1239267/Six-Nations-2020-prize-money-breakdown-how-much-win-earn

thomond2006

I doubt the prize money for 2021 will be close to that.

Paul Smeenus

thomond2006 wrote: »

I doubt the prize money for 2021 will be close to that.

Probably not, but doesn't change the fact that every penny counts.

Maybe I'm naive but I've always found it a bit bizarre that the 6 nations has prize money at all

Former Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’d like to see Byrne given a bit more time to actually challenge for 10 at Leinster before deciding that. His level of exposure is absolutely tiny.

Whether or not he’ll ever be good enough, he should get time to develop without that added pressure

Well yeah, that's the flip side of it, does throwing him in before he's ready do more harm than good?

I just think that if we're serious about having a viable replacement for Sexton in 2023, game time for the likes of Carty and R Byrne is not a great investment. I'd like to see more of Burns but I'm not sure he's the answer either.

arsebiscuits1

While I'm not sold on Madigan as a legitimate option I think people are extremely dismissive of him.

He's a lot more reliable than people give him credit for. His goal kicking is better than Carty, Carberry and Burns and probably on par with Ross Byrne.

He's a far superior defender than Burns, Carberry, Carty and Byrne.

Madigans issue generally speaking is an inability to change a game or drag it back when the chips are down, and is the more likely to force things or double down on tactics that need changing. Which would absolutely be the crux of a top class 10 and something

But a lot of countries could do much worse than have a player of his ability and injury profile as their 4th/5th choice 10.

I don't think he's earned his last international cap yet

I would be an enormous step backwards seeing Madigan in green again

thomond2006

Madigan turns 32 in March. He's not a starter at Ulster.

Can we stop this.

The Lost Sheep

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

While I'm not sold on Madigan as a legitimate option I think people are extremely dismissive of him.

He's a lot more reliable than people give him credit for. His goal kicking is better than Carty, Carberry and Burns and probably on par with Ross Byrne.

He's a far superior defender than Burns, Carberry, Carty and Byrne.

Madigans issue generally speaking is an inability to change a game or drag it back when the chips are down, and is the more likely to force things or double down on tactics that need changing. Which would absolutely be the crux of a top class 10 and something

But a lot of countries could do much worse than have a player of his ability and injury profile as their 4th/5th choice 10.

I don't think he's earned his last international cap yet

Madigan is 32. Its nearly 5 years since his last cap. Dont see why he should be picked when all the other options are at least 3.5 years younger and can develop/grow far more.

Louis Friend

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe you need to defer to a dictionary to see what rejected means, cos nothing you've said above equates to that.

Players who play at underage level but fail to make the senior side are “rejected”.

To claim otherwise is unnecessarily pendantic.

shootermacg

If you aren't the starting 10 for your province, then you shouldn't even be in the conversation. Armchair rides tend to flatter to deceive. Being a first team starter should be a prerequisite for playing International rugby.

If RB and HB can't oust an OAP, then they aren't really in the conversation.
Unfortunately you don't get points for scowling and, other than that Sexton's game isn't anywhere near his old standard. He's not really a running treat and his tactical kicking is poor enough these days.

Both Burns and Carty have played under more pressure than the 10s at Leinster, so both would be top of the pile - in my eyes.

Put Carty in a game where he has parity and he looks very good indeed, so he's be my current first choice, followed by Burns.

I don't think Healy has taken the starting shirt from JJ yet, so he's not really in the conversation yet.

sydthebeat

Louis Friend wrote: »

Players who play at underage level but fail to make the senior side are “rejected”.

To claim otherwise is unnecessarily pendantic.

whatever....... :rolleyes:

Brief_Lives

Louis Friend wrote: »

Eh, he did. Billy Burns is from England, Bath I think.

He played Under 18s/Schoolboy for England and then he played for the England Under 20s.

Billy Burns talks about the call up here..... and his brother takes the piss out of him too....

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

He's a lot more reliable than people give him credit for. His goal kicking is better than Carty, Carberry and Burns and probably on par with Ross Byrne.

I can't speak for Madigan's stats, but I'm pretty confident Carty, Carbery and Burns have all had a higher successful goal kick %'s than Ross Byrne the last 1-2 seasons.

Edit: having look at it just for Pro 14 for 2018/19 has:
Carbery: 87%
Carty: 83%
Burns: 80%
Ross Byrne: 73%

But RB was superior in 2019/20 with 91%.

Louis Friend

Ross Byrne is nowhere near good enough.

I really worry for us at the next World Cup if Carberry doesn’t come back.

With that draw, it’s already looking like “let’s see how 2027 goes”...

Wegians89

I think the selection and style of 9, also contributes to the issues at 10. Think a 9 like blade, Marmion or Casey would bring out the best in the likes of Carty and burns. Taking the place kicking responsibilities away from the 10 could help Carty/Burns too

molloyjh

Former Former Former wrote: »

I dunno lads, there are two questions here.

1. Who is the best alternative to Sexton?

2. Is that person good enough to be our starting 10?

The answer to the first may well be Burns, it may even be Carty - but I don't see either of these lads being test level 10s. Same for Ross Byrne and even for Madigan.

Personally, I'd let Sexton limp on for another year or two and move Harry Byrne up to second choice. He's not there yet but with could actually be good enough in years to come, so why not give him the experience now? You could make the same argument for Healy once he gets a few more starts for Munster.

Those 2 questions are exactly the right ones. Right now Burns is the number 2, and rightly so. But thats up for grabs in a big way. Carty has the talent to take it, but he really needs to show consistency before he can expect to. Carbery is broken and we simply haven't seen remotely enough of him as a starting 10 to accurately place him. Ross Byrne is a way off the pace IMO. None of those options are great ones as it stands, for a variety of reasons. I dont think any are good enough to be the starting 10 for a Test team looking to break into the top 3 in the world. But I'd take Burns right now as the best of the lot.

Hopefully one or both of Healy and Harry Byrne can deliver on their promise. But neither will be even close by the 6Ns. So for now its a case of sticking with Sexton until someone else shows they are better or are clearly on their way to a higher ceiling. I just dont see any point in wasting game time on guys that are never going to be at the level we need.

And yes, Madigan is one of those.

sprucemoose

thomond2006 wrote: »

Madigan turns 32 in March. He's not a starter at Ulster.

Can we stop this.

forgetting that he was never really a starter for leinster either and largely played 12 in the euro games when sexton left

sprucemoose

Louis Friend wrote: »

Ross Byrne is nowhere near good enough.

I really worry for us at the next World Cup if Carberry doesn’t come back.

With that draw, it’s already looking like “let’s see how 2027 goes”...

byrne has got the short end of the stick tbh, two horrible days in twickenham and coming on in paris when the game was gone. in fairness he has delivered for leinster on big occasions so i wouldn't be discounting him, deserves a run of big games for leinster before hes cast aside.



carbery is a fantastic player but an average 10 in the madigan mould - move him back to 15 where he belongs and give healy the reins at 10

Lucas44

sprucemoose wrote: »

byrne has got the short end of the stick tbh, two horrible days in twickenham and coming on in paris when the game was gone. in fairness he has delivered for leinster on big occasions so i wouldn't be discounting him, deserves a run of big games for leinster before hes cast aside.



carbery is a fantastic player but an average 10 in the madigan mould - move him back to 15 where he belongs and give healy the reins at 10

Ross Byrne is for the dogs, put him on any other provincial team and he struggles massively. Great man to adhere to covid regulations though has been social distancing from the gain line all his career. Carbery is the best 15 in Ireland when fit would of liked to have seen him there with sexton at 10

sprucemoose

Lucas44 wrote: »

Ross Byrne is for the dogs, put him on any other provincial team and he struggles massively. Great man to adhere to covid regulations though has been social distancing from the gain line all his career. Carbery is the best 15 in Ireland when fit would of liked to have seen him there with sexton at 10

bit harsh on byrne i think, he was the one keeping carbery at 15 when sexton was injured until the IRFU seemingly stuck their nose in (before carbery even left that is). he isnt the most exciting threat himself but he's solid and isnt too bad at bringing others into the game. i think healy has shown enough so far that hes worth being the long-term option down here but in fairness to JJ his place-kicking against clermont was fantastic (unfortunately he has a bit of a habit of bottling about half of his pressure kicks)

Louis Friend

Ross Byrne doesn’t add anything unfortunately.

If you were the opposition, you’d love to play against him all day.

Paul Smeenus

The point is he looks grand for Leinster, but doesn't seem to be able to make the step up.

And the logical conclusion drawn - and it is the simplest explanation - is that he can't perform if he's not behind a pack riding roughshod over the opposition.