Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa

Not defending Ryan, but the reality is our forwards have not been top level. Our only forward who is world class or thereabouts, is Furlong. Furlong didn't cover himself in glory against LA Rochelle either. He was negated and didn't really impress.
There's nobody available as good as Furlong and it's the same for Ryan. Ryan will bounce back strong. Unless he continues to get concussed.
On a different note, Conan has been the best forward we have these last few months. Doris may not be annointed yet.

TomsOnTheRoof

Dubinusa wrote: »

Not defending Ryan, but the reality is our forwards have not been top level. Our only forward who is world class or thereabouts, is Furlong. Furlong didn't cover himself in glory against LA Rochelle either. He was negated and didn't really impress.
There's nobody available as good as Furlong and it's the same for Ryan. Ryan will bounce back strong. Unless he continues to get concussed.
On a different note, Conan has been the best forward we have these last few months. Doris may not be annointed yet.

I'd argue that Beirne or Henderson are both top class internationals and on form just as good as Ryan, if not better. Ryan has the benefit of playing in a Leinster side which dominates domestically. Put either of those players above in that side and they'd be just as effective. As it is Henderson stands out in a pish poor pack and Beirne is regularly Munster's best player.

Neil3030

Trying to decide - who improved more since moving to Munster, Beirne or Conway? Perhaps a question for another thread...

nerd69

Neil3030 wrote: »

Trying to decide - who improved more since moving to Munster, Beirne or Conway? Perhaps a question for another thread...

Conway was extremely highly rated but injurie prone and beirne was a European player of the year nominee pre joining?

TRC10

Neil3030 wrote: »

Trying to decide - who improved more since moving to Munster, Beirne or Conway? Perhaps a question for another thread...

Conway.

Beirne was already absolutely immense for Scarlets, but it took him a couple of seasons to recreate his Scarlets form for Munster.

Squidgy Black

Neil3030 wrote: »

Trying to decide - who improved more since moving to Munster, Beirne or Conway? Perhaps a question for another thread...

Conway by an absolute mile. Beirne's performances at Scarlets got him nominated for European player of the year and had one of the highest turnover rates in competitions.

Conway was only 21 when he joined Munster, had a fair few performances but was stuck behind Dave Kearney, McFadden, Nacewa.

El_Duderino 09

I don't really buy into players being terrible or brilliant. It's all about form for most players. Some, very rare players, are almost always great. Most players have good form and bad form. If a player is on excellent form then they're excellent, if they're on OK form then they're OK. Ryan isn't a brilliant player because he's had a few brilliant seasons. He's an OK/decent player because he's on a run of OK/decent form.

I completely believe he'll get back to his brilliant form. But it's important to be honest about how players are doing and who the best players are. Ryan is almost always spoken about as the "first name on the teamsheet" But he should be picked on form or not at all.

Neil3030

See, what gets Beirne points for me, is that he was indeed immense for a very good Scarlets team, playing a particular style, and him largely playing at 6.

But since joining Munster he has made a step up to International standard at lock, which is a whole other bag of hammers, to quote EOS.

Squidgy Black

Neil3030 wrote: »

See, what gets Beirne points for me, is that he was indeed immense for a very good Scarlets team, playing a particular style, and him largely playing at 6.

But since joining Munster he has made a step up to International standard at lock, which is a whole other bag of hammers, to quote EOS.

He had a fair few outstanding performances at lock for Scarlets as well though, particularly the pro12 final against Munster. He made it into the Irish squad before he even made it to Munster.

Conway on the other hand was a complete question mark, he showed potential but was fighting injuries and even when he went to Munster it was far from clear that he would break into the starting side ahead of Zebo, Earls, Felix Jones and Dougie didn't retire until after he signed for them.

Dubinusa

Beirne could be the best flex type player we've had. He's certainly international class at 6 and in the 2nd row. Hesa rare commodity.

Neil3030

He had a fair few outstanding performances at lock for Scarlets as well though, particularly the pro12 final against Munster. He made it into the Irish squad before he even made it to Munster.

Conway on the other hand was a complete question mark, he showed potential but was fighting injuries and even when he went to Munster it was far from clear that he would break into the starting side ahead of Zebo, Earls, Felix Jones and Dougie didn't retire until after he signed for them.

Yeah that's true.

But my impression now of Beirne is that he'd be clearing the Scarlet's Beirne off the ball with ease, while preserving all the other aspects of his game, i.e., poaching, ball handling.

AbusesToilets

Dubinusa wrote: »

Beirne could be the best flex type player we've had. He's certainly international class at 6 and in the 2nd row. Hesa rare commodity.

He's been great this season, but should also caveat that with the fact he was muck before that. I've genuinely surprised and happy for him with how well he's done this year. It's a shame that the Irish team as a whole has been so poor, he would have been really excellent playing like this in the 2018 team.

TRC10

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He's been great this season, but should also caveat that with the fact he was muck before that. I've genuinely surprised and happy for him with how well he's done this year. It's a shame that the Irish team as a whole has been so poor, he would have been really excellent playing like this in the 2018 team.

This just isn't true at all. Name one game where he was "muck".

He was at the Scarlets in 2018, being nominated for EPOTY, and was pretty much Scarlets' best player in their best ever H Cup run (semi final).

AbusesToilets

TRC10 wrote: »

This just isn't true at all. Name one game where he was "muck".

He was at the Scarlets in 2018, being nominated for EPOTY, and was pretty much Scarlets' best player in their best ever H Cup run (semi final).

Pick any game from the WC for example. He was objectively bad playing for Ireland, and to a lesser extent Munster. Made zero impact. That's what has made this season so amazing, completely turned the trajectory of his performances around.

Dubinusa

Any game in the world cup bar the opener, we were very poor. We had no confidence, no back up strategy and after the loss to Japan, the writing was on the wall. The entire squad and the coaching team are responsible for the dreck served up since 2018. In general, we have looked like a poorly trained side in some of the matches. Sometimes, we clicked and have looked decent, other matches we weren't at the races.

TRC10

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Pick any game from the WC for example. He was objectively bad playing for Ireland, and to a lesser extent Munster. Made zero impact. That's what has made this season so amazing, completely turned the trajectory of his performances around.

Pick any game from the World Cup, and every single Irish player was "muck" pre-2020 using your logic. Nobody performed well at the World Cup.

His performances were fairly neutral while playing in a sh*tshow of an Ireland team, he certainly wasn't "objectively bad".

He was injured in early 2020. He came back in in October and played pretty well in Henderson's absence.

Then obviously he took it to a new level altogether in 2021 and was one of the best players in the 6 Nations.

He's been on a steady upward curve ever since the World Cup, so I don't know where you're getting the notion that he's "turned the trajectory of his performances around".

Saying Beirne was "muck" before the 2021 6 Nations is just nonsense.

Neil3030

It's worth clarifying - someone can be both (a) very good to begin with and (b) improve a great deal.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He's been great this season, but should also caveat that with the fact he was muck before that. I've genuinely surprised and happy for him with how well he's done this year. It's a shame that the Irish team as a whole has been so poor, he would have been really excellent playing like this in the 2018 team.

I don't think that's entirely accurate, tbh. He enjoyed a good spell of form in the 2018-19 season, where he picked up Man of the Match awards against Exeter twice and against Leinster for example.

He wasn't at the heights he hit this season, but to say he was "muck" or "objectively bad" is pretty overblown. The game against Wales in 2019 6 Nations sticks out as a poor performance, but absolutely nobody was good that day.

Sabre0001

Nuance and internet discussions rarely go hand in hand. Everyone is either muck/not fit to be an international or world class. There is rarely a middle ground!

sprucemoose

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Pick any game from the WC for example.

like the game against japan where he made turnovers with his first two touches after coming on?

Eod100

Some fans will get to Japan and USA games https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1398336384545570824?s=19

bilston

How many is "some"?

Eod100

bilston wrote: »

How many is "some"?

Think it could be 500 but guess government/IRFU will confirm officially closer to the time

sydthebeat

Eod100 wrote: »

Think it could be 500 but guess government/IRFU will confirm officially closer to the time

It wouldnt at all be worth opening for 500.

It could only be at least 5000 or nothing

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

It wouldnt at all be worth opening for 500.

It could only be at least 5000 or nothing

Yeah, I'd hope the authorities are a bit braver than that.

Hopefully it will be between 5,000 and 12,500. 10% and 25% capacity. Maybe that's too optimistic, but they are doing it in England with decent success in terms of the events were people are being tested before and after.

Edit - Just read that consideration is being given to allowing 5,000 to attend GAA matches at Croke Pk in July and August, so that would rule out 12,500 at the Aviva for Ireland v USA/Japan!

Lost Ormond

bilston wrote: »

Yeah, I'd hope the authorities are a bit braver than that.

Hopefully it will be between 5,000 and 12,500. 10% and 25% capacity. Maybe that's too optimistic, but they are doing it in England with decent success in terms of the events were people are being tested before and after.

Wont be near 12'500. Much closer to 5000 IMO.
England rate of vaccination very different so able to get more in with the temperature tests.

Eod100

sydthebeat wrote: »

It wouldnt at all be worth opening for 500.

It could only be at least 5000 or nothing

Only detail so far is 500 for larger venues. Seemed to be speculation Croke Park could have 5,000 by August so could be that but don't think specifics have been confirmed yet afaik

sydthebeat

Eod100 wrote: »

Only detail so far is 500 for larger venues. Seemed to be speculation Croke Park could have 5,000 by August so could be that but don't think specifics have been confirmed yet afaik

Ah yeah but my point is that it's very uneconomical and therefore pointless to open the Aviva for 500 people.

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

It wouldnt at all be worth opening for 500.

It could only be at least 5000 or nothing

RTE news gave the figure as 100. Leinsters original proposal was 2000. 500 may be a reasonable compromise.

bilston

stephen_n wrote: »

RTE news gave the figure as 100. Leinsters original proposal was 2000. 500 may be a reasonable compromise.

100!

Just play the matches in Belfast then!!