Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Wycherley returned for the As last week.

I wonder will he see some game time this weekend so. Its a dead rubber and it might boost his chances of a call up if he plays.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

Harry Byrne is injured. Pretty sure Whycherley is too.

Is he ruled out for the summer? If so, I didn't know that. Burns and Carbery then for me.

If Whycherly is out then maybe take Reid along with Killer and Byrne.

Richie_Rich89

1. Peter Dooley
2. Ronan Kelleher
3. Marty Moore
4. James Ryan
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Peter O'Mahony
8. Caelan Doris
9. John Cooney
10. Joey Carbery
11. Jacob Stockdale
12. Chris Farrell
13. James Hume
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Hugo Keenan

16. Rob Herring
17. David Kilcoyne
18. Tom O'Toole
19. Ryan Baird
20. Gavin Coombes
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Jack Carty
23. Jordan Larmour

Think I'd go for something along the lines of that.

bilston

TRC10 wrote: »

Is he ruled out for the summer? If so, I didn't know that. Burns and Carbery then for me.

If Whycherly is out then maybe take Reid along with Killer and Byrne.

I think Reid has big potential, but he isn't anywhere near this conversation at the moment. 12 months time who knows, but not yet.

TRC10

bilston wrote: »

I think Reid has big potential, but he isn't anywhere near this conversation at the moment. 12 months time who knows, but not yet.

See Porter and Ryan in 2017.

It's that kind of conservatism that will leave us with 2 LHs in their mid 30s at the World Cup.

Ryan was uncapped for Leinster in 2017 and Porter had played most of his rugby for UCD that season as he was converting to TH. Reid being in as 3rd choice LH for home games against tier 2 nations really isn't that wild.

We badly need to fast track some of the young LHs

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

See Porter and Ryan in 2017.

It's that kind of conservatism that will leave us with 2 LHs in their mid 30s at the World Cup.

Ryan was uncapped for Leinster in 2017 and Porter had played most of his rugby for UCD that season as he was converting to TH. Reid being in as 3rd choice LH for home games against tier 2 nations really isn't that wild.

We badly need to fast track some of the young LHs

I think we can ease up on conservative talk. Since taking over Farrell has blooded plenty and will be blooding several more in these 2 games. Throwing guys in for the sake of it can easily do more harm than good. EOS getting game time will be a good thing. Whycherley being involved would be nice too, but he's played 1 A game since coming back from injury so may not be fully match fit.

Fast tracking young LHs needs to happen at provincial level before international level. Reid hasn't played 17 mins in the last month.

Paul Smeenus

Think EOS is worth a rattle as well, albeit possibly not in these games.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

I think we can ease up on conservative talk. Since taking over Farrell has blooded plenty and will be blooding several more in these 2 games. Throwing guys in for the sake of it can easily do more harm than good. EOS getting game time will be a good thing. Whycherley being involved would be nice too, but he's played 1 A game since coming back from injury so may not be fully match fit.

Fast tracking young LHs needs to happen at provincial level before international level. Reid hasn't played 17 mins in the last month.

Not for the sake of it. Healy and Killer are 34 and 33 respectively and will only be in decline, and that's 2 years out from a world cup. The drop off after those 2 is huge in terms of quality. We need to be future planning.

Forgive me, but I genuinely don't see what 'harm' could come from Reid being in a squad and playing 20 minutes maximum vs the USA. It's not as though I'm suggesting he should be in a November test 23 or even a November squad. It's a summer series against 2 tier 2 nations with the Lions away. Have him there as 3rd choice just to give him some exposure to an international environment and maybe get some game time v the states (the weaker of the 2). We did it in 2017 in a much tougher away tour in Japan and look how Ryan and Porter burst onto the scene after that.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Not for the sake of it. Healy and Killer are 34 and 33 respectively and will only be in decline, and that's 2 years out from a world cup. The drop off after those 2 is huge in terms of quality. We need to be future planning.

Forgive me, but I genuinely don't see what 'harm' could come from Reid being in a squad and playing 20 minutes maximum vs the USA. It's not as though I'm suggesting he should be in a November test 23 or even a November squad. It's a summer series against 2 tier 2 nations with the Lions away. Have him there as 3rd choice just to give him some exposure to an international environment and maybe get some game time v the states (the weaker of the 2). We did it in 2017 in a much tougher away tour in Japan and look how Ryan and Porter burst onto the scene after that.

By "for the sake of it" I mean selecting a guy for reasons other than him being ready and able. Selecting a guy who isn't ready means he goes into camp not being ready, trains not being ready etc. He'd know it, the others there would know it. That doesnt do the player any good.

Ryan and Porter are freak athletes and hardly the benchmark to be using for all young players. EOS should get a run out. If Reid shows he's worth a look he'll get his chance in time. Blooding players just because we haven't anyone else isn't the answer. Just look at Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. Playing them doesn't make them good enough.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

By "for the sake of it" I mean selecting a guy for reasons other than him being ready and able. Selecting a guy who isn't ready means he goes into camp not being ready, trains not being ready etc. He'd know it, the others there would know it. That doesnt do the player any good.

Ryan and Porter are freak athletes and hardly the benchmark to be using for all young players. EOS should get a run out. If Reid shows he's worth a look he'll get his chance in time. Blooding players just because we haven't anyone else isn't the answer. Just look at Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. Playing them doesn't make them good enough.

It a different scenario with Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. They're genuinely the next best options after Sexton (with Joey out).

When you say "ready" what do you mean by that? Ready to play in a high pressure 6 Nations game? Of course Reid isn't ready for that, hence why nobody is suggesting he should play in one.

Would he be ready to come into a squad to be 3rd choice LH and maybe play a few minutes v the USA to get a look at him in an international environment? Yeah I'd say he probably is.

Nobody is saying he should be our first choice LH. But yes, we do need to be future planning when we're on course to have two loosheads aged 36 and 35, neither of whom would get in any other tier 1 nations team, at the next RWC.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

It a different scenario with Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. They're genuinely the next best options after Sexton (with Joey out).

When you say "ready" what do you mean by that? Ready to play in a high pressure 6 Nations game? Of course Reid isn't ready for that, hence why nobody is suggesting he should play in one.

Would he be ready to come into a squad to be 3rd choice LH and maybe play a few minutes v the USA to get a look at him in an international environment? Yeah I'd say he probably is.

Nobody is saying he should be our first choice LH. But yes, we do need to be future planning when we're on course to have two loosheads aged 36 and 35, neither of whom would get in any other tier 1 nations team, at the next RWC.

Okay, that's me done. I never said you were looking for him to be first choice or playing 6Ns rugby. I've made my point. You don't really want to understand it so let's just leave it there. This is the same conversation that we see here so often. Need replacement, oh look young guy over there, play him. That has never been, is not nor ever will be how rugby works. In any country, not just Ireland. If you don't want to see that then that's fine. But you're building yourself up for disappointment by setting completely unrealistic standards.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

Okay, that's me done. I never said you were looking for him to be first choice or playing 6Ns rugby. I've made my point. You don't really want to understand it so let's just leave it there. This is the same conversation that we see here so often. Need replacement, oh look young guy over there, play him. That has never been, is not nor ever will be how rugby works. In any country, not just Ireland. If you don't want to see that then that's fine. But you're building yourself up for disappointment by setting completely unrealistic standards.

Unrealistic, yet it literally happened 4 years ago.

Your comments about Ryan and Porter being "freak athletes" is retrospective analysis. Porter played most of his games for UCD that year and Ryan had never even played for Leinster. It's only because they went on to be great players that we look back on that tour and don't bat an eye at two lads with very little/no provincial experience being taken on tour.

Eddie Jones does it all the time too. Curry and Underhill went to Argentina 4 years ago. Underhill had played a bit for Ospreys but Curry was a teenager. Why did he do it? Because Robshaw and Haskell were getting on and he knew he had to future plan.

I think you're being a bit hysterical over a suggestion that really isn't that wild and has been done many times before.

OneLungDavy

Top coaches should be able to spot talent from a young age, regardless of whether they have played at a top level.

I've seen very little of Reid, how has he performed recently?

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Unrealistic, yet it literally happened 4 years ago.

Your comments about Ryan and Porter being "freak athletes" is retrospective analysis. Porter played most of his games for UCD that year and Ryan had never even played for Leinster. It's only because they went on to be great players that we look back on that tour and don't bat an eye at two lads with very little/no provincial experience being taken on tour.

Eddie Jones does it all the time too. Curry and Underhill went to Argentina 4 years ago. Underhill had played a bit for Ospreys but Curry was a teenager. Why did he do it? Because Robshaw and Haskell were getting on and he knew he had to future plan.

I think you're being a bit hysterical over a suggestion that really isn't that wild and has been done many times before.

I mean if you really think that nobody was talking about Porter and Ryan before you first saw them then fair enough, I can't help you there. You are completely wrong of course.

Porter was a monstrous LH before converting to TH and was destroying Premiership players in pre-season friendlies from that position before he was convinced to switch. He was a massive prospect and physically enormous and had a big future from very early on.

The same for James Ryan. It was no coincidence that he was the first player to play for Ireland before his province since BOD. He had been tipped for great things well in advance of that.

Both of these guys are the exception, not the rule. I mean Ryan literally was an exception given you have to go back nearly 20 years to our most celebrated player before you can find a similar scenario. And if that's the standard you're going to apply then you are going to be continually disappointed. Not because of anything Irish rugby is doing wrong, but purely because you have set a standard that isn't based in reality.

molloyjh

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Top coaches should be able to spot talent from a young age, regardless of whether they have played at a top level.

I've seen very little of Reid, how has he performed recently?

Nobody has seen much of Reid recently. He's played 3 times for a total of 88 mins in the last 3 months. I'm not aware of him being a prodigious talent or being tipped for big things (maybe he is and I've just missed it). There is absolutely no reason that Ulster 4th choice LH should be called up to Ireland. Its mad. But then I suppose he is young so there is that....

sprucemoose

molloyjh wrote: »

Nobody has seen much of Reid recently. He's played 3 times for a total of 88 mins in the last 3 months. I'm not aware of him being a prodigious talent or being tipped for big things (maybe he is and I've just missed it). There is absolutely no reason that Ulster 4th choice LH should be called up to Ireland. Its mad. But then I suppose he is young so there is that....

i similarly cant see why leinster's 3rd choice 10 who has barely played since the start of the season and hasnt played in europe yet is being claimed as the solution to all the irish teams problems

Former Former Former

If this guy is as good as Ryan and Porter were in 2017 then missing out on games against USA and Japan won't hold him back for long.

I suspect he's not, however.

molloyjh

sprucemoose wrote: »

i similarly cant see why leinster's 3rd choice 10 who has barely played since the start of the season and hasnt played in europe yet is being claimed as the solution to all the irish teams problems

Personally I don't think he is. At least not yet. That said, if it weren't for injury Harry Byrne would have started vs Northampton in Dec. And who knows from there. Had he gotten a decent run this season then he'd have been involved with Ireland. He's already been in camp. He's played a lot more than Reid and both guys ahead of him are currently in the Irish squad so he is getting a lot more game time as a result of that. They aren't quite the same thing. But yeah, there is definitely some of the same "oh look, young player" about Byrne too.

starkid

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

1. Peter Dooley
2. Ronan Kelleher
3. Marty Moore
4. James Ryan
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Peter O'Mahony
8. Caelan Doris
9. John Cooney
10. Joey Carbery
11. Jacob Stockdale
12. Chris Farrell
13. James Hume
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Hugo Keenan

16. Rob Herring
17. David Kilcoyne
18. Tom O'Toole
19. Ryan Baird
20. Gavin Coombes
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Jack Carty
23. Jordan Larmour

Think I'd go for something along the lines of that.

what a ridiculous selection.

Coombes needs to be the first name on the team sheet.

sprucemoose

molloyjh wrote: »

Personally I don't think he is. At least not yet. That said, if it weren't for injury Harry Byrne would have started vs Northampton in Dec. And who knows from there. Had he gotten a decent run this season then he'd have been involved with Ireland. He's already been in camp. He's played a lot more than Reid and both guys ahead of him are currently in the Irish squad so he is getting a lot more game time as a result of that. They aren't quite the same thing. But yeah, there is definitely some of the same "oh look, young player" about Byrne too.

completely agree, HB could be the answer, but we havent seen enough of him yet at provincial level to warrant the hype that seems to be surrounding him. the calls for him to be starting against italy in the 6N were very premature imo and seemed to be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to burns not playing too well up to that point. having said that if he were to be an option for the next rwc he needs to start getting game time but itd be pointless to cap him in the summer if he just goes back to being 3rd choice at leinster next season

Dubinusa

Can't see HB getting involved. I think Carberry will get the call for both matches, with Burns as the back up. That said, Carberry hasn't been great since returning.
Ed Byrne and Kilcoyne will probably get the game time v Japan. EOS will most likely play v the Eagles.
Coombes will be involved as will Doris. I would hope to see Boyle get a look also. I reckon there will be about 5 new caps.

sprucemoose

Dubinusa wrote: »

That said, Carberry hasn't been great since returning.

carbery is ian madigan mk2, fantastic player but not a 10

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

Your comments about Ryan and Porter being "freak athletes" is retrospective analysis.

Whatever about anything else, that's not my recollection tbh.

Ryan was very much on the radar to be the first player to play for country before province since Drico a good while before that came to pass. Equally Porter's ridiculous feats in the gym were widely heard of also.

arsebiscuits1

aloooof wrote: »

Whatever about anything else, that's not my recollection tbh.

Ryan was very much on the radar to be the first player to play for country before province since Drico a good while before that came to pass. Equally Porter's ridiculous feats in the gym were widely heard of also.

Absolutely.

James Ryan was one of the most hyped up underage players since Luke Fitzgerald. Everyone who saw him play since he was 15 knew he was going to play for Ireland.

Porter to a lesser extent than Ryan but certainly from his under 20s career there was little doubt that he was a physical anomaly who needed to be fast tracked.

Not retrospective analysis at all.

They were and are physical freaks and this was known by many 4 years ago

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Nobody has seen much of Reid recently. He's played 3 times for a total of 88 mins in the last 3 months. I'm not aware of him being a prodigious talent or being tipped for big things (maybe he is and I've just missed it). There is absolutely no reason that Ulster 4th choice LH should be called up to Ireland. Its mad. But then I suppose he is young so there is that....

He is a very powerful ball carrier, but he needs more experience in the scrum. He took a year out after school and which has slowed his progression a bit, still made the Ireland U20s though. Without knowing much about the scrummaging side of the game I'd say he is one to watch based on his other attributes and Ulster and Ireland U20s keeness to get him on board, but he is nowhere near the Ireland squad at the moment.

P.Walnuts

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Absolutely.

James Ryan was one of the most hyped up underage players since Luke Fitzgerald. Everyone who saw him play since he was 15 knew he was going to play for Ireland.

Porter to a lesser extent than Ryan but certainly from his under 20s career there was little doubt that he was a physical anomaly who needed to be fast tracked.

Not retrospective analysis at all.

They were and are physical freaks and this was known by many 4 years ago

Didn't Ryan captain Michael's SCT as a fourth year?

Pretty sure it was mentioned on this thread

Anyway I'm not remotely ITK about underage guys and even I had heard he was the next big thing, there's no retrospective analysis of Ryan whatsoever

eagle eye

molloyjh wrote:

Both of these guys are the exception, not the rule. I mean Ryan literally was an exception given you have to go back nearly 20 years to our most celebrated player before you can find a similar scenario. And if that's the standard you're going to apply then you are going to be continually disappointed. Not because of anything Irish rugby is doing wrong, but purely because you have set a standard that isn't based in reality.

How many times did Doris play for Leinster before he got called up? Larmour? Kelleher? Ringrose? Keenan?

Are you going to add them as exceptions too? That's a lot of exceptions in recent times.

sprucemoose

eagle eye wrote: »

How many times did Doris play for Leinster before he got called up? Larmour? Kelleher? Ringrose? Keenan?

.......all of them had played a fair bit in both the pro14 and europe from what i remember and im not even a leinster supporter

siltirocker

sprucemoose wrote: »

carbery is ian madigan mk2, fantastic player but not a 10

The reason Leinster were fine with him leaving according to Rob Kearney. They rated him as a 15 not 10, but he wanted to play 10.

sprucemoose

siltirocker wrote: »

The reason Leinster were fine with him leaving according to Rob Kearney. They rated him as a 15 not 10, but he wanted to play 10.

and i have to agree with them on that. could be devastating as a 15 but for me he still just isnt consistent at 10. part of that is due to injury of course but i dont see it in him. he even played 15 mostly at school from what ive seen