Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

....

The same for James Ryan. It was no coincidence that he was the first player to play for Ireland before his province since BOD.......

tut tut tut

arsebiscuits1

eagle eye wrote: »

How many times did Doris play for Leinster before he got called up? Larmour? Kelleher? Ringrose? Keenan?

Are you going to add them as exceptions too? That's a lot of exceptions in recent times.

Doris had 29 Leinster caps before getting an Ireland one.

Larmour had 14 caps

Kelleher had 10

Ringrose had 29

Keenan had 19

Porter had 8

Ryan had 0

Ryan by the numbers is definitely the exception given he capped for Ireland before Leinster joining prestigious company of BOD (and Bent)

Looking at it more broadly he was quite an exception because he was capped internationally less than a year after representing at U20s which is a rarity. And honour shared by himself, Larmour and Porter in your list there.

I think it's extremely rare for Irish players to make the jump to international rugby so young given how our schooling system is

sprucemoose

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Ryan had 0

most importantly though he had played for munster

arsebiscuits1

sprucemoose wrote: »

most importantly though he had played for munster

You want to get hissed at? This is how you get hissed at :pac:

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

He is a very powerful ball carrier, but he needs more experience in the scrum. He took a year out after school and which has slowed his progression a bit, still made the Ireland U20s though. Without knowing much about the scrummaging side of the game I'd say he is one to watch based on his other attributes and Ulster and Ireland U20s keeness to get him on board, but he is nowhere near the Ireland squad at the moment.

Well that's certainly positive anyway. We need options at LH and if he can provide one in the next couple of years the mores the better.

lawrencesummers

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

1. Peter Dooley
2. Ronan Kelleher
3. Marty Moore
4. James Ryan
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Peter O'Mahony
8. Caelan Doris
9. John Cooney
10. Joey Carbery
11. Jacob Stockdale
12. Chris Farrell
13. James Hume
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Hugo Keenan

16. Rob Herring
17. David Kilcoyne
18. Tom O'Toole
19. Ryan Baird
20. Gavin Coombes
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Jack Carty
23. Jordan Larmour

Think I'd go for something along the lines of that.

Balacoune hasn’t had a game in white that would suggest he is ready for green. Neither has Hume.

Then you have Earls, Conway, Lowe, Shane Daly

Marmion the other Leinster 9 and Craig Casey are ahead of both your SH selections.

molloyjh

eagle eye wrote: »

How many times did Doris play for Leinster before he got called up? Larmour? Kelleher? Ringrose? Keenan?

Are you going to add them as exceptions too? That's a lot of exceptions in recent times.

Okay, let's do this then.

Callum Reid is in his first season with Ulster. He has played a total of 5 games, all from the bench, for a total of 140 mins. All of those games have been either league or Rainbow Cup. He is currently 4th choice LH at Ulster.

When Doris got his first cap for Ireland, he was in his 3rd season since getting his Leinster debut and had played 29 times. Of those 29 games he started 21 and had played in and started in HEC games as well. He was first choice for Leinster, switching between 6 and 8.

When Larmour got his first cap for Ireland, he was in his first season with Leinster. He had played 14 times including 9 starts and 4 HEC games (2 from the bench and 2 starting). He had graduated to the starting team and went on to start in the SF and Final in the HEC that season. I'd class his breakout season as fairly exeptional tbh. How many people were scoring tries like the one in Thomond that season for example? He was a guaranteed starter on the wing for Leinster at that stage.

When Kelleher got his first cap for Ireland, he was in his second season with Leinster. He had played 10 times starting in all but 1 of those games. By the time he was capped for Ireland he was clear first choice for Leinster and was performing to a very high standard in his starts in the HEC.

When Ringrose got his first Ireland cap he was in his second season with Leinster. He had played 29 times for Leinster, of which 27 were starts (4 on the wing and 23 at 13). He had clearly become Leinsters first choice 13 by the time he was capped.

When Keenan got his first cap for Ireland, he was in his 5th season with Leinster. He had played 20 times for Leinster, 17 of which were starts. His previous 14 games in a row with Leinster were all starts and he had even started in the QF vs Saracens at that stage. When he was capped he was Leinsters first choice 15.

So of all the players you picked they were all guaranteed starters for Leinster when they got their Ireland debuts and had played in and started at HEC level multiple times. As I said, fastracking happens provincially. These guys got fast tracked by their province because of their abilities. This is what got them their shot with Ireland.

I hope Callum Reid does develop into an option for Ireland. We need LHs. But he's nothing even remotely like any of the players you've identified. Not even close.

salmocab

sprucemoose wrote: »

most importantly though he had played for munster

Although not in fairness the Munster first team. He’d also played underage for Leinster teams. But had zero senior games at provincial level.

arsebiscuits1

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Balacoune hasn’t had a game in white that would suggest he is ready for green. Neither has Hume.

Then you have Earls, Conway, Lowe, Shane Daly

Marmion the other Leinster 9 and Craig Casey are ahead of both your SH selections.

I mean Richie is renowned for his controversial picks.

But even still.

Baloucoune I think has had more than enough showings in White to justify a showing in Green. He's a proven excellent finisher and has shown great maturity in defence.

I think it's a pretty accepted consensus that he'd have been capped already if not for his nasty hamstring injury.

I wouldn't say James Hume is in the same category as Baloucoune but I think he's worth a wider squad look in at the very least.

20 appearances in White this season is an extremely impressive tally and he's been consistent to excellent each time.

I'm not sure where you're getting Marmion ahead of anyone given he hasn't been capped by Farrell (barring 20 minute against Georgia) and has subbed behind Blade as often as he's started this season.

bilston

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Balacoune hasn’t had a game in white that would suggest he is ready for green. Neither has Hume.
.

Nonsense

bilston

I see England have named 21 uncapped players in their squad for Canada and USA.

Paul Smeenus

bilston wrote: »

I see England have named 21 uncapped players in their squad for Canada and USA.

Including Dan Kelly.

sprucemoose

salmocab wrote: »

Although not in fairness the Munster first team. He’d also played underage for Leinster teams. But had zero senior games at provincial level.

was only joking, just pointing out that himself and sexton are really munster men at heart

arsebiscuits1

sprucemoose wrote: »

was only joking, just pointing out that himself and sexton are really munster men at heart

hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Squidgy Black

bilston wrote: »

I see England have named 21 uncapped players in their squad for Canada and USA.

It's just the initial training camp as anyone from Exeter, Sale, Bristol and Sarries are unavailable because of the playoffs but Jones has said they'll integrate those back after the semis and the finals. So I wouldn't be surprised to see half if not more of those 21 be left out of the final squad

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Nonsense

Yep. To follow on from the above, Balacoune is in his 3rd season for Ulster. He has 29 games for Ulster with only 2 of those being from the bench. He's had a horrible time with injury but has been a starting HEC games from his first season. He is a starter for the province with loads of experience up to and including HEC level. He's looked the business any time I've seen him in the last season or so. He's one of those guys who is surely set for a call up.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Yep. To follow on from the above, Balacoune is in his 3rd season for Ulster. He has 29 games for Ulster with only 2 of those being from the bench. He's had a horrible time with injury but has been a starting HEC games from his first season. He is a starter for the province with loads of experience up to and including HEC level. He's looked the business any time I've seen him in the last season or so. He's one of those guys who is surely set for a call up.

Has been a "development player" with the international squad as well.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Has been a "development player" with the international squad as well.

Forgot about that. I'd be shocked if he wasn't involved.

arsebiscuits1

molloyjh wrote: »

Forgot about that. I'd be shocked if he wasn't involved.

I'd have him above Shane Daly every time FWIW too.

And Conway based on this season

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Forgot about that. I'd be shocked if he wasn't involved.

Can't see it - not if Lawrence S. isn't convinced.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

I mean if you really think that nobody was talking about Porter and Ryan before you first saw them then fair enough, I can't help you there. You are completely wrong of course.

Right, this a strawman, I just never said this.

Of course people were talking about them and thought they'd be great players. But lots of players are talked about coming out of school. But to suggest nobody batted an eye at 2 guys with very little/no provincial experience playing for Ireland is revisionism because they went on to become great players. Most people were very surprised to see them in an Ireland squad so early.

Of course we look back now and say "oh of course they were in that squad" but that wasn't the case at the time. Porter had played 1 game IIRC as a TH for Leinster. Even me, who knew a lot about both of them and was at their debut in New Jersey, was very surprised.

I really don't think it's ludicrous to suggest that because our two looseheads are ageing and in decline, it might be worth having a look at the guy regarded as the most promising young loosehead we have in a squad for a tier 2 game.

lawrencesummers

molloyjh wrote: »

Yep. To follow on from the above, Balacoune is in his 3rd season for Ulster. He has 29 games for Ulster with only 2 of those being from the bench. He's had a horrible time with injury but has been a starting HEC games from his first season. He is a starter for the province with loads of experience up to and including HEC level. He's looked the business any time I've seen him in the last season or so. He's one of those guys who is surely set for a call up.

He’s highly rated by ulster fans but I don’t see it and I’ve watched him plenty.

Conway, Earls, Shane Daly, Lowe are all ahead of him,

Paul Smeenus

lawrencesummers wrote: »

He’s highly rated by ulster fans but I don’t see it and I’ve watched him plenty.

Conway, Earls, Shane Daly, Lowe are all ahead of him,

He's highly rated by fans of other provinces too. If you don't see it, fair enough, but I think that's maybe more important in understanding you than him.

Dubinusa

I'd say Conway, if healthy is ahead of Balacoune. Earls is getting on and is still good. But, Balacoune imo, is a better all round wing than Daly and Lowe. If Lowe could get his defense in order, I think Lowe is better.
I think Balacoune will be playing this summer and could push for a spot in the 6nations. I think Daly is a very good player. I think he's better at outside center and fb, than wing. I reckon he could be a better 13 than Farrell.

clsmooth

Haven’t seen enough of Balacoune to really judge him, but he has looked excellent on the few occasions I’ve seen him play since coming back from his injury. Solid defensively and a great finisher. Have seen him lose the ball in contact in the last two games I’ve seen him play though. Not sure if this has been a regular occurrence for him or not?

Paul Smeenus

clsmooth wrote: »

Haven’t seen enough of Balacoune to really judge him, but he has looked excellent on the few occasions I’ve seen him play since coming back from his injury. Solid defensively and a great finisher. Have seen him lose the ball in contact in the last two games I’ve seen him play though. Not sure if this has been a regular occurrence for him or not?

Not something I've been aware of. He came off injured in his last few games, looking a bit tentative, and I wondered if he was feeling the knocks and bangs after so long off.

But normally he has a reliability for us that Stockdale, for example, wouldn't. His basics are excellent.

Dubinusa

It seems like Ulster are pushing Stockdale as a 15. I prefer Addison there myself. But, Stockdale has the tools required.

lawrencesummers

I presume zebo is in contention for selection also considering he will be Irish based by then.

Paul Smeenus

Dubinusa wrote: »

It seems like Ulster are pushing Stockdale as a 15. I prefer Addison there myself. But, Stockdale has the tools required.

He has definitely improved, but I don't like Stockdale there. He's grand at Pro14 level, or weaker Euro teams. He's not a patch on Addison at 15, or, in all honesty, Lowry. For me, the area where Stockdale is better at FB than Lowry is that he has a howitzer of a boot, and that's the weakest point of Lowry's game. He does not pick up many yards kicking out - he really doesn't.

aloooof

I know it won't go over too well in some quarters, but with Henderson and Beirne off on the Lions and Roux leaving, is there a chance Jean Kleyn could see some game time this summer? He's been in pretty decent form this season.

Ryan, Baird and Dillane the obvious candidates for the 23 but after that, there's room for one more from the likes of Treadwell, Thornbury and Kleyn? Am I forgetting anyone obvious?