Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sprucemoose

TheG0AT wrote: »

Tom Court was drafted in as a replacement, who was in the vicinity of the tour, and they didn't want to fly someone half way across the world for a glorified friendly in mid week.

Same happened with a scottish scrum half who was covering a lions tour and when couple of scrum halves got injured he was asked if he hd bpoots and could join the squad. Mike Blair i believe.

Comparing Tom Court's Lions experience to Bundi Aki, who was selected in the initial squad for this tour only highlights your own ignorance and stupidity.

first of all......relax

my point (which had more than a bit of sarcasm) was that being a lion isnt necessarily a guarantee of quality (it usually is in fairness, but i was just making a humorous point in reply to your, imo anyway, over-zealous defence of Aki). either way, aki is probably third choice for ireland when all options are fit and in decent form, for me farrell should be ahead of him in the pecking order but AF doesnt tend to agree and thats what matters i suppose

and it was andy nicol that was called up in 2001 for the final test as he was in australia at the time as part of a supporters tour. they tried ronan o gara briefly in training at 9 as an alternative but he was brought onto the bench anyway as neil jenkins was injured and ruled out. you may be getting confused with 2009 when blair was added to the squad before the tour started due to tomas o leary breaking his ankle and being ruled out.

sorry if all that correct info further highlights my ignorance and stupidity!

TomsOnTheRoof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ahead of Conway and Addison at 15, yes I agree.

Including larmour in with those three though makes no sense whatsoever.

If Larmour is purely seen as a winger then fair enough. The last couple of tests would suggest this. However, Addison has struggled massively with his fitness over the past few seasons and it wouldn't surprise me to see Larmour cover 15 or even start there. I don't think Farrell knows who his backup for Keenan is and I'd hazard a guess that Larmour is still viewed as a viable option there. If that's the case then I think Haley can feel hard done by. Having said that if he's purely viewed as a winger then the selection is fair enough.

Thrashssacre

Not a lot of love for Addison I think he might be exactly what Ireland need, runs brilliant lines like Keenan but had a bit more strength im looking forward too seeing him and have a feeling it won't be his last cap, a perfect candidate for the 23 shirt for the future.

Thrashssacre

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Not a lot of love for Addison I think he might be exactly what Ireland need, runs brilliant lines like Keenan but had a bit more strength im looking forward too seeing him and have a feeling it won't be his last cap, a perfect candidate for the 23 shirt for the future.

Always thought the same but he can't stay fit

TRC10

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Not a lot of love for Addison I think he might be exactly what Ireland need, runs brilliant lines like Keenan but had a bit more strength im looking forward too seeing him and have a feeling it won't be his last cap, a perfect candidate for the 23 shirt for the future.

Addisons ability isn't and has never been the issue. He's a cracking player. Jusy horrifically injury prone. Add to that the fact he's 29, and it starts to make more sense investing in Haley who has had a good season and is ever present and reliable for Munster. Addison is a luxury player for Ulster.

Former Former Former

I think Addison is more likely to be involved in national squads if he stays fit. Haley isn't quite at that level IMO.

Dubinusa

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Picking a bigger squad so he and other coaches can get better look at some players i guess.
I think Dooley is european standard and would be that all time if playing elsewhere and not behind Healy....
If going on age Treadwell/Thornbery are older/about same age as Molony so not exactly right options if going on about picking younger options



You are gobsmacked by Dooley but then pick him to start the games....
Who instead of him would you have picked then?

Very surprised indeed! But, fcuk it. Give him a run against the blossoms! The experience may propel him into a viable role! I do rate him above EB. But, tbh. I would prefer Cronin or EOS.

Dubinusa

Just realized that Treadwell wasn't selected! I think Farrell is making a mistake. I rate him above Molony and Wycherly, both of whom are small locks. By small, I mean weight and bulk.
Is there any update for an autumn schedule? It's probably around then that attendances will be full. Would be great to have S.A come up for a match!

Lost Ormond

Dubinusa wrote: »

Just realized that Treadwell wasn't selected! I think Farrell is making a mistake. I rate him above Molony and Wycherly, both of whom are small locks. By small, I mean weight and bulk.
Is there any update for an autumn schedule? It's probably around then that attendances will be full. Would be great to have S.A come up for a match!

The autumn games were confirmed a few weeks back
We play New Zealand, Maona Pasifka and Japan

I certainly wouldnt call Molony small. He's 6'6 and 112kg. Weight isnt an issue.

Must love hardship

I think Nucifora, Farrell and Catt are out their depth.

Farrell only wanted 2 games so he can run off and be number 2 on the lions. A third test was an option and should have been played for player progression and TV revenue.

Nucifora renewed 3 players on central contracts who didn't make the lions and are now effectively on holidays for the summer.

The outhalf decision is baffling. Billy burns has proved himself consistently at int and Club level not to be the required int standard but still gets picked. Harry byrne gets selected but at the expense of Ross byrne who while I agree is not spectacular but the safest option available off the bench and can cover 12 at a push. Especially with carberrys injury profile..
Farrell said it was a selction decision and not his ankle..

Billy burns kicking from the ground or from hand is not at int standard.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

If there was a game against England tomorrow, what 2nd rock pairing would you prefer..

Molony and Wycherley

or Treadwell and Kleyn

If we were playing England tomorrow we'd be screwed with either pairing. All of them are behind Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird and most likely Dillane. You're complaining about who we are looking at as 3rd or 4th choice in nothing games against poor opposition. It doesn't really matter.

TRC10

Must love hardship wrote: »

I think Nucifora, Farrell and Catt are out their depth.

Farrell only wanted 2 games so he can run off and be number 2 on the lions. A third test was an option and should have been played for player progression and TV revenue.

Nucifora renewed 3 players on central contracts who didn't make the lions and are now effectively on holidays for the summer.

The outhalf decision is baffling. Billy burns has proved himself consistently at int and Club level not to be the required int standard but still gets picked. Harry byrne gets selected but at the expense of Ross byrne who while I agree is not spectacular but the safest option available off the bench and can cover 12 at a push. Especially with carberrys injury profile..
Farrell said it was a selction decision and not his ankle..

Billy burns kicking from the ground or from hand is not at int standard.

The only thing Ross Byrne has over Burns is goal kicking. Burns is a better fly half in every other aspect.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

The only thing Ross Byrne has over Burns is goal kicking. Burns is a better fly half in every other aspect.

Never have to stick a flanker out on the 10 channel when Ross byrne is there....

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

The only thing Ross Byrne has over Burns is goal kicking. Burns is a better fly half in every other aspect.

He's certainly better defensively too, and the closest we've had to Sexton in that regard.

VANG1

He’s certainly a better line kicker and cross field kicker. He’s also a better passer. Think BB is a better runner at defences. It’s not RB fault if the pack are being beaten if he can’t win us the game on his own. He gets a lot of unfair criticism. We’ve been spoiled with JS.

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

Never have to stick a flanker out on the 10 channel when Ross byrne is there....

aloooof wrote: »

He's certainly better defensively too, and the closest we've had to Sexton in that regard.

Granted he's better in defence too, as he should be seen as he has about 4 inches on him. But Burns is far from a weak defender.

Anyway, we're not picking our 10s based on their defence. It would be quite far down the priority list in terms of attributes for a 10.

If you stuck Burns in the Leinster team Byrne plays in, I personally think Burns would be widely regarded as the better 10. And this is coming from a Leinster fan.

I think Ross Byrne's goal kicking papers over some huge cracks in his game.

Paul Smeenus

VANG1 wrote: »

He’s certainly a better line kicker and cross field kicker. He’s also a better passer. Think BB is a better runner at defences. It’s not RB fault if the pack are being beaten if he can’t win us the game on his own. He gets a lot of unfair criticism. We’ve been spoiled with JS.

Just so I'm clear, RB gets unfair criticism, because he's stuck behind the lowly Leinster pack, compared to Billy Burns, behind the mighty Ulster pack.

I really, really don't think that's the case.

Buer

Ross Byrne is not a better passer than Billy Burns. His passing has come along a lot but he's not as good as Burns who is able to pass flat on the gain line and bring centres into the game. Byrne passes it out the back far too deep. A well organised rush defence is going to hurt Leinster behind the gain line which we've seen in the biggest games.

Neither are ever going to be top tier test players. They both have significant limitations in their games which we've seen plenty of times at this point.

Jump_In_Jack

Andy Farrell talks about how he is currently monitoring Zebo's performances, and will be watching him at Munster with potential for call up to Ireland.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0615/1228185-farrell-zebo-munster-matches-will-dictate-ireland-call/

Andy Farrell commenting on his squad.
Healy/Sexton/Earls told to get an extended pre-season. Ross Byrne/Carty/McGrath/Marmion on standby for the squad.
Wants to see Carbery and Harry Byrne in camp and wants them to make an impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcxrACqD9E

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Just so I'm clear, RB gets unfair criticism, because he's stuck behind the lowly Leinster pack, compared to Billy Burns, behind the mighty Ulster pack.

I really, really don't think that's the case.

I would assume he was referring to his performances in green. Particularly in Twickenham but then again, I suspect you already knew that.

Paul Smeenus

stephen_n wrote: »

I would assume he was referring to his performances in green. Particularly in Twickenham but then again, I suspect you already knew that.

You suspect wrong. If I had, I would have pointed out that BB's first cap was behind a pack that had played the vast majority of the game down to seven.

Former Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Andy Farrell talks about how he is currently monitoring Zebo's performances, and will be watching him at Munster with potential for call up to Ireland.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0615/1228185-farrell-zebo-munster-matches-will-dictate-ireland-call/

So, exactly like every other player in Ireland then. Fair enough.

nerd69

Former Former Former wrote: »

So, exactly like every other player in Ireland then. Fair enough.

Wrong he's clearly grooming him for captaincy

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

You suspect wrong. If I had, I would have pointed out that BB's first cap was behind a pack that had played the vast majority of the game down to seven.

Ireland pack was not beaten that day.

TRC10

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

You suspect wrong. If I had, I would have pointed out that BB's first cap was behind a pack that had played the vast majority of the game down to seven.

No it wasn't. Billy Burns' first cap was against Wales last Autumn. He had to go off again with a HIA so didn't do too much.

His next cap was off the bench v England in Twickenham. I've never seen an Ireland pack get bullied as much as it did that day, yet his first act was setting up our only try.

He then started v Georgia the next week and played really well and scored a try. It was when he went off injured shortly after HT that Ireland's performance went to sh*t that day.

He outperformed Byrne by a mile last Autumn. Unfortunately, that kick v Wales has really tarnished his reputation. He may not be good enough to take up Sexton's mantle, but I think he's comfortably better than Byrne.

Paul Smeenus

TRC10 wrote: »

No it wasn't. Billy Burns' first cap was against Wales last Autumn. He had to go off again with a HIA so didn't do too much.

His next cap was off the bench v England in Twickenham. I've never seen an Ireland pack get bullied as much as it did that day, yet his first act was setting up our only try.

He then started v Georgia the next week and played really well and scored a try. It was when he went off injured shortly after HT that Ireland's performance went to sh*t that day.

He outperformed Byrne by a mile last Autumn. Unfortunately, that kick v Wales has really tarnished his reputation. He may not be good enough to take up Sexton's mantle, but I think he's comfortably better than Byrne.

To be honest, my point was really just that Stephen should avoid assuming bad faith all the time. That post about Ross Byrne and a beaten pack was confusing and unclear, and Stephen thought he was oh-so-clever with his post.

But yes, I completely agree on the wider point. Billy Burns is not great, but he's better than Byrne, who looked like a rabbit in the headlights and devoid of ideas against England. Amble forward, ship it on early. Amble forward, ship it on early.

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

To be honest, my point was really just that Stephen should avoid assuming bad faith all the time. That post about Ross Byrne and a beaten pack was confusing and unclear, and Stephen thought he was oh-so-clever with his post.

It’s interesting that you pull me on trying to be oh so clever, when that’s exactly what I was pointing out in your post. RB has very rarely had a poor game for Leinster. Precisely because it’s very rare the Leinster pack is badly beaten as Ireland has been two of the times he played for them. There has been a lot of justified criticism of his performances in Green but very little in Blue. So bad faith was quite believable. Especially since this is the Irish thread and not a Leinster or Ulster thread.

The reality is that neither BB or RB will ever be good enough at test level. For completely different reasons they both have deficiencies in their game. That will be exposed at test level. BB is a far more exiting 10 to watch especially with his breaking threat but his kicking game from both hand and tee is sub standard. RB is too slow, has no real ability to break the line and that makes it too easy to defend against him at this level. Especially against a beaten pack.

Dubinusa

I think RB is limited in his play! But Burns is also. Burns is a better attacking the line player, but Byrne is a better tackler and defender. It's also worth noting that Carberry too, has deficiencies in his game. He's a speed bump defending and I think his management skills are questionable also. HB is untested and we just won't know about him. His goal will be to start the big matches for Leinster. If he can't do that....
10 is a position that is crucial. Sexton has been brilliant for us and is still, at 35 our best option. Munsters Crowley imo, is a good prospect for the future. I think he is a better prospect than Healy. Lowry would also be a prospect, if he usurped Burns.
As it is, RB and Burns are good players and can do a decent job. But they are not top quality. Who knows, we may not have anyone close to Sextons quality again. But, Burns is certainly in the frame and rightly so. RB will be also, although I think he's going to be a fringe type player. Like Keatley was, just outside the squad but, in the wider squad.

connachta

So Carty definitely out of frame?

He always makes two horrible mistakes per game but has had a very very good level beside these

accensi0n

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's also worth noting that Carberry too, has deficiencies in his game. He's a speed bump defending.

Is he? Haven't seen him much since he came back but he always seemed to be a very good tackler, although not stopping the attacker dead obviously.
Tackling low and good technique, one of those slighter players that can chop down a big forward.