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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #8012
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    thats quite a selective narrative. is that any more likely than:

    Gatland: "we're assessing options for replacing AWJ, what's the story with James Ryan?"

    IRFU: "he picked up an abductor injury during the week, which we are monitoring."

    Gatland: "Ok, We need him to go immediately, but hes out of contention now, thanks anyway"

    I mean another possible way the call could have gone is:

    Gatland: What's the story with James Ryan?

    IRFU: He has a minor niggle, has been unavailable for a couple of days. His availability this weekend isn't clear.

    Gatland: in that case I can't rely on his availability, but thanks.

    He may not have been selected either way, we simply don't know. Just as we don't know what level his current injury impacted the decision. Everything people here are saying is guesswork. No more. For anyone to claim definitively what did or didn't happen is daft. Nobody here knows any more than anyone else, ie the sum total of feck all.


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    #8013
    OneLungDavy
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    thats quite a selective narrative. is that any more likely than:

    Gatland: "we're assessing options for replacing AWJ, what's the story with James Ryan?"

    IRFU: "he picked up an abductor injury during the week, which we are monitoring."

    Gatland: "Ok, We need him to go immediately, but hes out of contention now, thanks anyway"
    Why is this so hard for people? We can only go on the evidence that is reported i.e. Ryan was not considered due to injury. Maybe Ryan would have been picked, maybe Beard would have anyway. Let's put this debate to bed.


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    #8014
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    OneLungDavy wrote: »
    Why is this so hard for people? We can only go on the evidence that is reported i.e. Ryan was not considered due to injury. Maybe Ryan would have been picked, maybe Beard would have anyway. Let's put this debate to bed.

    Not sure why you're quoting me above that post??

    You're making the exact point I am.

    Theres only one poster here that is saying anything "for certain" and it's not me

    Edit: I see that you're saying the same....


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    #8015
    damianmcr
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    Can the Leinster fans not keep this wailing to their own thread?


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    #8016
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    damianmcr wrote: »
    Can the Leinster fans not keep this wailing to their own thread?

    We all know that Gatland wanted to call up Baird, but the operations manager misheard him and thought he wanted "Beard" and sent him the email.

    At which point Gatland didn't want to crush the dreams of his former player by telling him he didn't actually want him, so he said "f*ck it, we'll take Beard, he's an alright player anyway"


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    #8017
    Shaka Hislop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 486 ✭✭Shaka Hislop


    WG: "Hello boyho...can we have James Rrrryan please"

    IRFU: "Ah sorry...he has an abductor strain"

    WG: "Oooh.. he'll be out for quite a while then'

    iRFU: "Well ...we hope to have him play this weekend against Japan"

    WG: "So he won't be fit to play in 4 weeks time against the Saffers, will he boyho's?"

    IRFU: "Well thats what the Irish Times are telling us"


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    #8018
    OneLungDavy
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Not sure why you're quoting me above that post??

    You're making the exact point I am.

    Theres only one poster here that is saying anything "for certain" and it's not me

    Edit: I see that you're saying the same....
    Yeah I was agreeing with you.


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    #8019
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,227 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    are you suggesting that the IRFU didnt inform the lions of Ryans injury, and the extent of same?

    They didn't suggest that and they don't need to suggest that. If Ryan's injury is so minor that he may be able to play an international in 5 days, then it's not a main factor in Gatland's decision to take him to SA or not.


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    #8020
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    leakyboots wrote: »
    Has Aherne really done enough to warrant inclusion in the Ireland squad? He's had some very good cameos in the Pro14 but I wouldn't have thought he's done enough yet, and I'm a Munster fan

    Not if you're picking for the here and now based just on provincial selection, but I think it would have been an opportunity to give a bit more weighting to potential when it came to picking second rows in the squad.


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    #8021
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    They didn't suggest that and they don't need to suggest that. If Ryan's injury is so minor that he may be able to play an international in 5 days, then it's not a main factor in Gatland's decision to take him to SA or not.

    This is bizarre logic. The very same "facts" could be phrased as below, giving a completely different complexion to the whole thing without actually changing anything other than wording.

    If Ryan's injury is not minor enough to allow him to play an international in 5 days, then its a factor in Gatlands decision to take him to SA or not.

    I've literally changed nothing about the scenario there at all. Just phrased it differently. And that has fundamentally changed the whole perspective. Which to me sums up how dumb this discussion is. It is equally likely that the injury was relevant as it was irrelevant from what we know.


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    #8022
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I don't understand why this is a discussion.

    If a fully fit Ryan wasn't deemed good enough a month ago....

    Why would a possibly injured Ryan be deemed good enough now?

    Who ever came in to replace AWJ was never going to be involved in the tests anyway. Gatland needed someone who could come in immediately and play against the provincial teams. Gatland knows Beard, he knows hes big and physical enough, he knows he can run a lineout and he knows he's fit enough to come in and play immediately, which he doesn't know about Ryan. It's not hard to get your head around Gatland's logic in this case.


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    #8023
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Beard came on against SA in the RWC semi-final when the match was hanging in the balance. I’d say Gatland has a lot of faith in him.
    Ryan probably needs to get his weight up to at least 19 stone to be on a par with the best locks around.
    He’ll hopefully pack it on in time for the next RWC.


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    #8024
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,227 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    molloyjh wrote: »
    This is bizarre logic. The very same "facts" could be phrased as below, giving a completely different complexion to the whole thing without actually changing anything other than wording.

    If Ryan's injury is not minor enough to allow him to play an international in 5 days, then its a factor in Gatlands decision to take him to SA or not.

    I've literally changed nothing about the scenario there at all. Just phrased it differently. And that has fundamentally changed the whole perspective. Which to me sums up how dumb this discussion is. It is equally likely that the injury was relevant as it was irrelevant from what we know.

    Yeah but your phrasing doesn't work as a cogent sentence. If he can play in 5 days then his injury is very minor and nor a consideration. If he can play in 5 days then he can do some light training from now and can do whatever is necessary from the weekend. Being serious it's not a real consideration for gatland and its not going to be a disqualifying injury.


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    #8025
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah but your phrasing doesn't work as a cogent sentence. If he can play in 5 days then his injury is very minor and nor a consideration. If he can play in 5 days then he can do some light training from now and can do whatever is necessary from the weekend. Being serious it's not a real consideration for gatland and its not going to be a disqualifying injury.

    And what if he doesn't play this weekend because of the injury?


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    #8026
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    seeing as the only reporting on the subject has said that the injury ruled him out of contention, do we have to go by that?

    unless someone else has seen reporting which states that he wasnt in contention regardless of the injury?


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    #8027
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,227 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    molloyjh wrote: »
    And what if he doesn't play this weekend because of the injury?

    Then he's not ready for a full international this weekend. Do the lions have a big match this weekend which he would miss?

    If Gatland wanted him, he'd have picked him.


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    #8028
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Then he's not ready for a full international this weekend. Do the lions have a big match this weekend which he would miss?

    Wow, you just don't want to get the point at all do you? Ryan has spent a good deal of time this season injured. He is apparently injured again. If he's guaranteed to be back in the next few days then no big deal. If its uncertain then it means his overall availability can't be relied on. Like Sexton. It's an entirely plausible scenario, no matter how much others want to insist that it isn't.


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    #8029
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Then he's not ready for a full international this weekend. Do the lions have a big match this weekend which he would miss?

    If Gatland wanted him, he'd have picked him.

    It's still very important that whoever he calls up can play immediately.

    If, hypothetically, Ryan was called out and his injury flared up and he was unavailable for 2 games, Gatland would have to overwork his test locks and he'd have Itoje or Henderson doubling up and playing weekend and midweek in what is already an incredibly demanding schedule, meaning they wouldn't be in peak condition come the 1st test.


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    #8030
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    I think as Irish fans we should all know the disadvantages of bringing players on a tour who are not fully fit


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    #8031
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    This is actually painful to read.

    Ryan was training last Wednesday at least. Sometime between Wednesday and Saturday he picked up a strain.

    Most likely when the phone rang, IRFU said they don't know the extent of the injury. As of today, they still don't know. This is not unusual, to need a few days to judge the seriousness of an injury.

    The Lions were leaving on Sunday. There's no way Gatland could risk bringing anyone into the squad only to have to send them home a week later and then call up Beard or whoever.

    Maybe they would have gone with Beard anyway. Maybe Ryan would have been picked. Maybe IRFU cut the conversation off and said he's not going anywhere. We don't know. We'll probably never know.

    I know that version of events doesn't allow for much in the way of petty points scoring, and I appreciate a lot of people have been grinding many axes these last few years, but still, he's an Irish player and it's just miserable to read such glee at his disappointment. Pathetic.


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    #8032
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    I think as Irish fans we should all know the disadvantages of bringing players on a tour who are not fully fit

    I'd imagine once Gats learned that Ryan wasn't 100% fit, not selecting him was the easiest decision he's made in a long time


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    #8033
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    What glee?!


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    #8034
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,227 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Wow, you just don't want to get the point at all do you? Ryan has spent a good deal of time this season injured. He is apparently injured again. If he's guaranteed to be back in the next few days then no big deal. If its uncertain then it means his overall availability can't be relied on. Like Sexton. It's an entirely plausible scenario, no matter how much others want to insist that it isn't.

    Yeah we'll see whether he plays this weekend or not. If he does, then can we agree Gatland just didn't want him?


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    #8035
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    This is actually painful to read.

    Ryan was training last Wednesday at least. Sometime between Wednesday and Saturday he picked up a strain.

    Most likely when the phone rang, IRFU said they don't know the extent of the injury. As of today, they still don't know. This is not unusual, to need a few days to judge the seriousness of an injury.

    The Lions were leaving on Sunday. There's no way Gatland could risk bringing anyone into the squad only to have to send them home a week later and then call up Beard or whoever.

    Maybe they would have gone with Beard anyway. Maybe Ryan would have been picked. Maybe IRFU cut the conversation off and said he's not going anywhere. We don't know. We'll probably never know.

    I know that version of events doesn't allow for much in the way of petty points scoring, and I appreciate a lot of people have been grinding many axes these last few years, but still, he's an Irish player and it's just miserable to read such glee at his disappointment. Pathetic.

    What are you talking about?


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    #8036
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah we'll see whether he plays this weekend or not. If he does, then can we agree Gatland just didn't want him?

    We can agree right now that Gatland didn't want him, be it down to ability or fitness (I suspect it was a bit of both).

    He may play, while also having question marks over his fitness. Gatland was never going to pick someone who wasn't 100% fit, given they were flying out the next day and the congested schedule.

    We'll never know if he would have been picked if he was 100%. I suspect he may have been, but I can't definitively say he would have or wouldn't have. Nobody can.


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    #8037
    damianmcr
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    Former, you are having a nightmare here.

    No one I can see is in glee. What are you looking for? A period of mourning.


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    #8038
    VANG1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    James Ryan is a top player and will prove all his detractors wrong. He is very young and is improving. I have no doubt he will be on the next Lions tour. It is pathetic to see Irish supporters talking him down. Get a life, he always gives everything to the jersey.


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    #8039
    damianmcr
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    VANG1 wrote: »
    James Ryan is a top player and will prove all his detractors wrong. He is very young and is improving. I have no doubt he will be on the next Lions tour. It is pathetic to see Irish supporters talking him down. Get a life, he always gives everything to the jersey.
    Who is talking him down?


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    #8040
    VANG1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    You know who you are. Even more pathetic trying to start an argument. Grow up, worse than my kids.


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    #8041
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah we'll see whether he plays this weekend or not. If he does, then can we agree Gatland just didn't want him?

    No of course not. Jesus, you really don't get it do you!? What you would be doing above is using facts gleaned after the fact to prove something that could not have been known at the time. Its mind boggling stupid.

    Ryan might never have been selected. But the reality is we will never know how much or how little the injury affected the decision. We can't know. Claiming we can one way or the other is daft. How is it this not blindingly obvious at this point!?


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