Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

clsmooth

shootermacg wrote: »

Coombes and Baird are frightening prospects. Both early 20s and both close to 120kg. In a few years both could be 130Kg plus, that's SA levels of big.

Ryan Baird is no where near 120kg at the moment. I’d also argue that he’d probably lose his best asset (athleticism) if he was 120kg+. I doubt Coombes will ever hit 130kg either. Or 120kg at that. He’s a big lump but not that big.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

Hume only covers centre so if he's on the bench then we either have no cover with at 10 or in the back 3. At least Larmour offers cover at 13 and 15 which would give scope to include Balacoune.

As for the centres, it was the only realistic selection. With Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose and Addison all unavailable our options were basically non-existent. Hume is too inexperienced to start his first game against a very decent Japan.

I agree re Ryan.

Hume can play 12, 13 and wing.

Saying he's too inexperienced is just classic Irish conservatism.

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

He's started Pro14 finals, he's started H Cup games.

He's far more experienced than Kelleher, Doris or Keenan were when they made their debuts.

shootermacg

clsmooth wrote: »

Ryan Baird is no where near 120kg at the moment. I’d also argue that he’d probably lose his best asset (athleticism) if he was 120kg+. I doubt Coombes will ever hit 130kg either.

Both around 1.98M, so plenty of room for it. I'd say it's only a matter of time before they fill out, so say around 26 will be when they hit their optimal weight.

sprucemoose

DonVito wrote: »

I wonder what the likes of Hume and Balacoune think when they see the likes of Farrell and Daly on the team sheet. They absolutely smoke those lads at club level but somehow they sit behind them internationally. Shane Daly..... it’s like Sam
Coghlan Murray being on the bench. Waste of time. Farrell has been extremely disappointing in his selections during the 6 nations and now this too.

.....wind it in a bit here

hume was decent against munster but i wouldnt say he 'smoked' any of the munster team in either game and since farrell didnt play in either, he cant have 'smoked' him.

hume and balacoune are both great players but to act like they are infinitely better than farrell and daly is a joke

TRC10 wrote: »

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

only due to injuries

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

Hume can play 12, 13 and wing.

Saying he's too inexperienced is just classic Irish conservatism.

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

He's started Pro14 finals, he's started H Cup games.

He's far more experienced than Kelleher, Doris or Keenan were when they made their debuts.

Yeah but Ulster are pretty crap though

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Hume can play 12, 13 and wing.

Saying he's too inexperienced is just classic Irish conservatism.

He's been Ulster's 1st choice 13 for 2 full seasons.

He's started Pro14 finals, he's started H Cup games.

He's far more experienced than Kelleher, Doris or Keenan were when they made their debuts.

Hes also playing in a fairly pivotal defensive position against a very good attacking side. Kellehers debut came off the bench, an option not really available to an out and out centre (and he is an out and out centre) Keenans came on the wing against a very poor Italy, which is a far more forgiving position against far more forgiving opposition. Doris is a but of a freak athlete. Hume is not.

But by all means, throw around accusations of conservatism because I don't agree with every word you say. There's no need to make any effort to understand other perspectives on a discussion forum. No sir.

clsmooth

shootermacg wrote: »

Both around 1.98M, so plenty of room for it. I'd say it's only a matter of time before they fill out, so say around 26 will be when they hit their optimal weight.

It’s not all about weight. Look at Cian Healy as an example who got back to form after shedding a load of weight (I’m aware he had a serious nerve injury too at the time but see how he describes always chasing the game)

Cian Healy's weight as a professional rugby player has varied from 97kg when making his Leinster debut 13 years ago up to 127kg at the 2015 World Cup.

The loosehead prop has adapted his weight through the years to the requirements of the sport.

"Throughout it, I've had wild changes," Healy told Marie Crowe as part of McSport's My Motivation interview series.

"I started professionally with Leinster and I was 97kg. That's incredibly light for my position and that was a big problem at the start. Michael Cheika just threw me in and said, 'You have to deal with it and you have to work on getting your weight up as well'.

"I've also gone up to the other end: In 2015, for the World Cup, I was 127kg. It's a pretty big scale to be swinging on. When I was 127kg, it was like trying to turn a bus. The lighter you get, the small the car gets. It's easier to move, get around and react when I'm a bit lighter. I felt awful running around. I felt like I was constantly chasing the game, never ahead of myself."

The Ireland international now plays at around 110kg - 113kg due to the increased fitness demands on the pitch.

"I think that's a pretty good fighting weight to be able to get around the park easily and be able to do my main job as best as possible", he said.

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"I've tested the water at all different weights. I've bulked up to that (127kg) and I did a season or two around 118kg, 119kg and I was pretty fit and quick around that.

"In the last two seasons, I've dropped it down again just to try and boost that fitness side of it a bit more than the strength side of it. I'm pretty happy with where the strength is at, at that weight.

"I'm definitely adapting my weight now to how the game has gone. There's less of running start at scrums now - they're more controlled.

"Fitness has become way more important; there are less stops in a game, more ball in play time. For me to be the best asset to the team that I can, I'm shedding off a few more kilos and working more on fitness."

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Yeah but Ulster are pretty crap though

Well I guess Munster are crap too seen as they finished level on points last season and both lost at home to Toulouse

briandebum

molloyjh wrote: »

Hume only covers centre so if he's on the bench then we either have no cover with at 10 or in the back 3. At least Larmour offers cover at 13 and 15 which would give scope to include Balacoune.

As for the centres, it was the only realistic selection. With Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose and Addison all unavailable our options were basically non-existent. Hume is too inexperienced to start his first game against a very decent Japan.

I agree re Ryan.

Lets be honest, USA are probably not much better than a good club side, are we going to learn much from playing Hume against them?

Is test rugby so dramatically different a sport from club rugby that Hume (Who has played rugby all his life.) will be completely at sea vs the Japanese in a meaningless friendly with no fans in the stadium?

Even if it does go wrong and we lose, who gives a ****e? I'm sure he can "take some learnings from the match" and become a better player? He's not going to crumble as a player.

Farrell is a solid club player, playing him in this match is a waste of time. We have data on him and know what he can offer.

The reason I've quoted this is that come the 6 nations, we are likely to hear the same excuse as to why we can't start Hume or Balacoune or any other young player.

shootermacg

clsmooth wrote: »

It’s not all about weight. Look at Cian Healy as an example who got back to form after shedding a load of weight (I’m aware he had a serious nerve injury too at the time but see how he describes always chasing the game)

I understand where you're coming from. But Healy is what? 6 foot? He's huge for his size. But when you're half a foot taller, you will just have more room for it.

You might be right about Baird. He looks like more of a 5 type than a 4, although I would still see him as a bit light currently.

razorblunt

clsmooth wrote: »

Ryan Baird is no where near 120kg at the moment. I’d also argue that he’d probably lose his best asset (athleticism) if he was 120kg+. I doubt Coombes will ever hit 130kg either. Or 120kg at that. He’s a big lump but not that big.

Yep, absolutely no way they're hitting 130kg, that's obscene.

Coombes must be somewhere around 115-118kg is he?
Baird is taller so has the capacity to get close to 120kg for sure.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

Hes also playing in a fairly pivotal defensive position against a very good attacking side. Kellehers debut came off the bench, an option not really available to an out and out centre (and he is an out and out centre) Keenans came on the wing against a very poor Italy, which is a far more forgiving position against far more forgiving opposition. Doris is a but of a freak athlete. Hume is not.

But by all means, throw around accusations of conservatism because I don't agree with every word you say. There's no need to make any effort to understand other perspectives on a discussion forum. No sir.

Are you serious?

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I haven't made an effort to understand it.

You're entitled to your view that Hume is too inexperienced to play against Japan. I respect that view.

I just think it's conservative thinking. He's been 1st choice for his province for 2 seasons. He's played in Pro14 finals and European games.

How much more experience can an uncapped 22 year old get?

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

Well I guess Munster are crap too seen as they finished level on points last season and both lost at home to Toulouse

I'll just leave this here

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

I'll just leave this here

A home win in a post season friendly. Well done.

Anyway, clearly my point went right over your head. I wasn't saying Munster are crap. No need to be so defensive.

AdamD

My only complaint is Farrell. Really don't see what's hes done to deserve being in the Irish squad at this stage.

Hume would be fine for his debut, one club mate inside him and another outside him.

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

A home win in a post season friendly. Well done.

Anyway, clearly my point went right over your head. I wasn't saying Munster are crap. No need to be so defensive.

Sorry mate, just having a little fun with you

molloyjh

briandebum wrote: »

Lets be honest, USA are probably not much better than a good club side, are we going to learn much from playing Hume against them?

Is test rugby so dramatically different a sport from club rugby that Hume (Who has played rugby all his life.) will be completely at sea vs the Japanese in a meaningless friendly with no fans in the stadium?

Even if it does go wrong and we lose, who gives a ****e? I'm sure he can "take some learnings from the match" and become a better player? He's not going to crumble as a player.

Farrell is a solid club player, playing him in this match is a waste of time. We have data on him and know what he can offer.

The reason I've quoted this is that come the 6 nations, we are likely to hear the same excuse as to why we can't start Hume or Balacoune or any other young player.

Right, I'm getting close to being fed up saying this on this forum, but here we go...

TEST RUGBY IS NOT ABOUT LETTING SUPPORTERS FIND OUT WHO IS GOOD AND WHO IS NOT.

What we learn is utterly, utterly, utterly irrelevant. And if the coaches need to see guys play in these games to get a sense of what they are capable of I'd seriously question what the f*** they are doing with these players in camp all this time. They should already pretty much know exactly what each of their players are capable of.

It's almost as if people believe that what they see is all there is. That nothing exists outside of what they know. That there is no knowledge or experience beyond what they are able to glean from a couple of hours a week watching rugby. What exactly is it that you think teams do with the rest of their time!?

We have seen plenty of guys get debuts and young guys get game time. Ed Byrne, O'Sullivan, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Deegan, Connors, Casey, JGP, R Byrne, Lowe, Keenan and Daly. That's in 14 games, 10 of which are 6Ns. We now have Coombes about to add to that list with almost certainly a few more next week. We've seen Doris displace POM, Connors displace VDF, Keenan displace Larmour and may be now looking at Kelleher displacing Herring.

We have not been hugely conservative. And that's just a lazy accusation thrown at Ireland set-ups that don't pick every single young lad people want to see.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Sorry mate, just having a little fun with you

As am I friend.

Anyway, I'm not even a bloody Ulster fan :pac:

shootermacg

AdamD wrote: »

My only complaint is Farrell. Really don't see what's hes done to deserve being in the Irish squad at this stage.

Hume would be fine for his debut, one club mate inside him and another outside him.

I think he's more a defensive option against Japan. Japan like to play away from the pack and get the ball to the centre/wide as soon as possible. Big Stu and Farrell will be picked to make dominant tackles and hopefully slow them down.

I'd expect to see some shooters employed to disrupt the attack.

sprucemoose

AdamD wrote: »

My only complaint is Farrell. Really don't see what's hes done to deserve being in the Irish squad at this stage.

well then you have no complaints, farrell has been very consistent this season and has pretty much always delivered for ireland

TRC10 wrote: »

A home win in a post season friendly. Well done.

so you get competition points for winning a friendly now? i dont really understand how that works to be honest

clsmooth

razorblunt wrote: »

Yep, absolutely no way they're hitting 130kg, that's obscene.

Coombes must be somewhere around 115-118kg is he?
Baird is taller so has the capacity to get close to 120kg for sure.

I’d guess around 110-115kg for Coombes. Henderson is listed at 195cm and 112kg in Lions page and 198cm 116kg on IRFU page. I don’t think either of the other two would be much bigger than him.

nerd69

TRC10 wrote: »

He's 2 years older and not as good as Baloucoune.

He has more appearances because he's older.

So what if he's versatile? It's a one off summer test, and there's enough versatility so sort it out if someone gets injured. Larmour or Carbery can go to 15 and Larmour can cover 13.

8 months older it's less a shot on baloucoune Im a big fan of his it's a matter of time for him imo I just don't understand how you see Daly as having a low ceiling

shootermacg

I'm looking forward to the game, but then I look forward to all the Ireland games.

TRC10

nerd69 wrote: »

8 months older it's less a shot on baloucoune Im a big fan of his it's a matter of time for him imo I just don't understand how you see Daly as having a low ceiling

I stand corrected on his age. You do have to take into account Baloucoune was out for a long time with a bad injury.

And I never said S.Daly had a low ceiling. I've just seen an awful lot more from Baloucoune and I think he has more potential. That's just my opinion.

Baloucoune's strike rate is also considerably better. 16 in 31, to Daly's 6 in 32. I know it isn't everything but it is important for a winger.

starkid

a bit of a waste of time. we know what some of these lads can do. For all intents and purposes its a conservative selection. There wasn't much change needed, but you'll learn absolutely nothing playing RB or HUme against USA. Just give the lads a shot. AF would get credit for being bold.

Happy for Dillane, after being dicked about quite a bit.

Daly and Burns aren't good enough either. I don't understand why both are persisted with. why keep Daly on the bench over and over. Daft.

shootermacg

Was James Lowe in the squad? Or is he injured?

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

Baloucoune's strike rate is also considerably better. 16 in 31, to Daly's 6 in 32. I know it isn't everything but it is important for a winger.

Daly has played a fair chunk of those at Full-back as well.

Jump_In_Jack

razorblunt wrote: »

Yep, absolutely no way they're hitting 130kg, that's obscene.

Coombes must be somewhere around 115-118kg is he?
Baird is taller so has the capacity to get close to 120kg for sure.

Coombes is listed at 6'6" and 110kg
Baird is listed at 6'6" and 112kg

How correct that is I couldn't be sure.

shootermacg

I'd feel more sorry for Mike Haley. He's had a great season at FB and I think he has room to grow too.

TRC10

aloooof wrote: »

Daly has played a fair chunk of those at Full-back as well.

8

He's played 12 games this season (1 at FB, 11 on the wing) and scored 1 try.

Again, it isn't everything, but 1 in 12 isn't "international winger numbers"