Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

stephen_n

Bazzo wrote: »

Don't really agree with that. If they were both heirs apparent sure but the short term 9 will be Murray and long term most people are looking to Casey, with Doak looking promising. Gibson-Park is only 3 years younger than Murray

JGP is about a million miles ahead of Casey at present. It’s unlikely Casey will overtake either Murray or JGP before the next RWC. Think Carberry would benefit from having JGP inside him too. He seems low on confidence and not in form, JGP would probably be better to take some pressure off.

I think the 23 will be something like

1. Ed Byrne
2. Rob Herring
3. John Ryan
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Gavin Coombes
7. Peter O'Mahony
8. Caelan Doris
9. Craig Casey
10. Joey Carbery
11. Jacob Stockdale
12. Stuart McCloskey/Tom Daly
13. James Hume
14. Andrew Conway
15. Hugo Keenan

16. Dave Heffernan
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Tom O'Toole
19. Fineen Wycherley
20. Paul Boyle
21. Caolin Blade
22. Harry Byrne
23. Robert Baloucoune/Shane Daly

Thrashssacre

Vincenzo Gentle Stack wrote: »

I think the 23 will be something like

1. Ed Byrne
2. Rob Herring
3. John Ryan
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Gavin Coombes
7. Peter O'Mahony
8. Caelan Doris
9. Craig Casey
10. Joey Carbery
11. Jacob Stockdale
12. Stuart McCloskey/Tom Daly
13. James Hume
14. Andrew Conway
15. Hugo Keenan

16. Dave Heffernan
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Tom O'Toole
19. Fineen Wycherley
20. Paul Boyle
21. Caolin Blade
22. Harry Byrne
23. Robert Baloucoune/Shane Daly

Swap balacoune for Conway and I'd fully agree with you.

AbusesToilets

stephen_n wrote: »

JGP is about a million miles ahead of Casey at present. It’s unlikely Casey will overtake either Murray or JGP before the next RWC. Think Carberry would benefit from having JGP inside him too. He seems low on confidence and not in form, JGP would probably be better to take some pressure off.

Blade and Carry would be a much better option, they've both shown themselves to be more capable than the other options. Ridiculous that neither is being given a run.

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Blade and Carry would be a much better option, they've both shown themselves to be more capable than the other options. Ridiculous that neither is being given a run.

That’s quite simply untrue about Carty, he can be both brilliant and brutal within the same game. Going on RC form, Fitzgerald is the better 10 in Connacht at present.

AbusesToilets

stephen_n wrote: »

That’s quite simply untrue about Carty, he can be both brilliant and brutal within the same game. Going on RC form, Fitzgerald is the better 10 in Connacht at present.

Carty to me has shown far greater ability to create in attack than anyone else. That's more valuable to me than consistent mediocrity.

Former Former Former

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Blade and Carry would be a much better option, they've both shown themselves to be more capable than the other options. Ridiculous that neither is being given a run.

Carty is nowhere near good enough. He's exactly where he deserves to be in the pecking order. Carbery should start again.

I'd like to see Blade get a run next week though. We've seen plenty of JGP the last few months.

thomond2006

Carty has tremendous upside but he's as likely to throw an interception as he is to make a clinical pass for a try.

You can probably work around a mediocre 10 versus a 10 who is completely up and down.

Thrashssacre

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Swap balacoune for Conway and I'd fully agree with you.

From what we've seen from Farrell he seems to prefer introducing players from the bench. I think all the new caps he has given out bar Kelleher and Doris were from the bench.

His hands are probably tied with the 13 jersey as McCloskey and Tom Daly would be seen more as out and out 12's.

AbusesToilets

Former Former Former wrote: »

Carty is nowhere near good enough. He's exactly where he deserves to be in the pecking order. Carbery should start again.

I'd like to see Blade get a run next week though. We've seen plenty of JGP the last few months.

What has Carberry shown that warrants this annointing? He hasn't performed at 10 for Ireland in any match I can recall, and certainly none recently. Carty outperformed him in green consistently.

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What has Carberry shown that warrants this annointing? He hasn't performed at 10 for Ireland in any match I can recall, and certainly none recently. Carty outperformed him in green consistently.

Considering it was his first time in green since the 2019 RWC, that would explain that.

Carbery is also first choice for his club, I think if Carty becomes the first choice 10 in Connacht, he will then get another chance in the national squad.

Look at Blade for example, I would say he is first choice 9 in Connacht and has been rewarded with a call up to the national squad.

theVersatile

Carty - Jesus wept. Man struggled to start ahead of Connor Fitz in the back end of the season. Has one great performance every six or seven weeks before reverting into consistent inconsistency.

Former Former Former

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What has Carberry shown that warrants this annointing? He hasn't performed at 10 for Ireland in any match I can recall, and certainly none recently. Carty outperformed him in green consistently.

I agree that Carbery has never turned in a really commanding performance in green but he's been injured a lot and is definitely the most talented of the bunch.

He's probably the least bad option more than being a standout test player, but he's still the best hope we have.

'Carty' and 'consistently' are two words that just don't go together I'm afraid. There's no argument that he should be ahead of Burns or Byrne, let alone Carbery.

Richie_Rich89

I think I'd have Carty ahead of Burns and R. Byrne.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What has Carberry shown that warrants this annointing? He hasn't performed at 10 for Ireland in any match I can recall, and certainly none recently. Carty outperformed him in green consistently.

There's a pretty basic reason; he hasn't performed recently because he hasn't played recently because he's been injured.

On top of that, it's also worth pointing out that his last game for Ireland prior to yesterday was probably his best game for Ireland - Scotland in the 2019 6 Nations. He came on early for an injured Sexton and was pretty good.

(Edit: not quite his last game, with warm-up and RWC appearance. He’s had very little rugby tho).

He was then pretty much consistently injured from February 2019 until his return this February, playing a sum total of 211 minutes in 4 games for Munster in that 2 year period.

That's the context of Cabery's return.

Bazzo

While I'm always hesitant to wade into any Carty debate; in response to a few of comments here it's worth asking if it's easier to take a talented player and coach consistency or take a consistent player and coach talent.

I'm not saying he necessarily deserves to be ahead of Burns or Byrne but I don't think it's all that clear cut either.

Richie_Rich89

The player I want to see come in is Baloucoune on the right wing. He's such a smart player. Actually, I think he could be a bit like Bowe in terms of also being able to cover 13. He has the skills and nous for it.

Would Baloucoune have made the tackle on the Japanese player who caught the cross-kick before the try? I think so.

TRC10

What Carbery needs more than absolutely anything is a run of games to rebuild his confidence and form.

Out half, I've found, is the most difficult position to excel in when you're coming in cold.

In 2018/19 he was seriously developing into a genuine test level 10. He was putting in excellent performances for Munster in Europe, and he played most of the Scotland game and set up Earls' try, kicked his goals and we won.

Then the injuries hit, and there were times when it looked like he may not play again. He was ruled out indefinitely at one stage.

IMO he is the clear next best after Sexton, and if he gets a solid pre season and hits the ground running for Munster I can see him starting in November with Sexton playing a different role from the bench.

But we need to accept he's played very little rugby since 2019 and he needs time.

bilston

Farrell appears to have hinted at a much changed team this weekend.

I'd expect to see the likes of O'Toole, Molony, Coombes, Casey, Daly (the Connacht one) and Baloucoune start. I'd be disappointed if they aren't involved at all.

sprucemoose

Former Former Former wrote: »

I agree that Carbery has never turned in a really commanding performance in green but he's been injured a lot and is definitely the most talented of the bunch.

Apart from the injury profile, carbery's problem has always been that hes a much better player than he is a 10. hes much more suited to the beauden barrett-style auxilary playmaker role but hes convinced hes a 10, hence why he changed provinces as leinster knew this

TRC10 wrote: »

In 2018/19 he was seriously developing into a genuine test level 10. He was putting in excellent performances for Munster in Europe, and he played most of the Scotland game and set up Earls' try, kicked his goals and we won.

......he was pretty hot and cold for munster though, okay against exeter and gloucester, was very poor against castres but very good away to an appalling gloucester team, okay at home to exeter. if the pack is very much on top he can be great but that doesnt tend to happen as you go up the levels

TRC10 wrote: »

IMO he is the clear next best after Sexton, and if he gets a solid pre season and hits the ground running for Munster I can see him starting in November with Sexton playing a different role from the bench.

far from clear and as much as id like to see this happen, i dont see JS being okay with that, although it probably would benefit the team and help prolong his career

TRC10 wrote: »

But we need to accept he's played very little rugby since 2019 and he needs time.

also fair

stephen_n

Bazzo wrote: »

While I'm always hesitant to wade into any Carty debate; in response to a few of comments here it's worth asking if it's easier to take a talented player and coach consistency or take a consistent player and coach talent.

I'm not saying he necessarily deserves to be ahead of Burns or Byrne but I don't think it's all that clear cut either.

But that coaching doesn’t happen at international level. Consistency comes at provincial level. The only thing Carty has ever been consistent about is being inconsistent. From reading match threads, even Connacht fans get frustrated with him for that. There is no doubting he is very talented and a great natural player but he can’t be relied on to do it consistently. He had a good run through 2018/19 where he seemed to be performing consistently at club level. This got him call ups and even starts. I think it’s unfair to single any player out for a bad performance but the game against Japan seemed to mark his card permanently. He hasn’t seemed to regain any extended run of form for Connacht in the last year. Though that’s a casual observation, maybe Connacht fans would disagree.

aloooof

sprucemoose wrote: »

Apart from the injury profile, carbery's problem has always been that hes a much better player than he is a 10. hes much more suited to the beauden barrett-style auxilary playmaker role but hes convinced hes a 10, hence why he changed provinces as leinster knew this

Graham Henry also thought he was a 10. It's not like he's going on a solo run here.

sprucemoose wrote: »

......he was pretty hot and cold for munster though, okay against exeter and gloucester, was very poor against castres but very good away to an appalling gloucester team, okay at home to exeter. if the pack is very much on top he can be great but that doesnt tend to happen as you go up the levels

That spell was his best spell for Munster, imo. The away Castres game was his first back from injury. In the next 4 games, he got MOTM in 2 of them. I think he nailed something like 21 out of 21 kicks as well. He then came off the bench vs Scotland. I'd wager that performance was probably better than we've seen in an Ireland shirt from any of Ross Byrne, Burns or Carty?

He hasn't quite hit the same levels since coming back, but hopefully a full pre-season and a run of games will see him gain some form back.

sprucemoose wrote: »

far from clear and as much as id like to see this happen, i dont see JS being okay with that, although it probably would benefit the team and help prolong his career

If Farrell thinks that's the way to go, then that's professional sport. Sexton not being okay with it is not a reason not to do it.

sprucemoose

aloooof wrote: »

Graham Henry also thought he was a 10. It's not like he's going on a solo run here.

fair enough (although i remember him saying that leinster should build around JC, not specifically with him at 10, but i could be wrong). lancaster and cullen didnt though hence why they consistently went with JS and RB at 10 and JC at 15. I'd imagine if he hadnt moved then JC would have overtaken Kearney at 15 for Leinster and Ireland by the last world cup

aloooof wrote: »

That spell was his best spell for Munster, imo. The away Castres game was his first back from injury.

those games like the one away to castres are what he needs to be judged on though if he really is the player that hes thought to be. Carbery was catapulted straight back into the team ahead of JJ (who was MotM the previous week) and didnt back up the selection (imo anyway). its easy to look amazing against a team like gloucester, who had basically given up at that stage of the pool, but against tougher opposition im still undecided. he did should good signs against leinster in fairness to him though

aloooof wrote: »

In the next 4 games, he got MOTM in 2 of them. I think he nailed something like 21 out of 21 kicks as well. He then came off the bench vs Scotland. I'd wager that performance was probably better than we've seen in an Ireland shirt from any of Ross Byrne, Burns or Carty?

hes a very good goalkicker, no arguments there. so was ian madigan though and he suffers/suffered from the same problem, fantastic talent but lacking in some of the core skills needed at 10 and much better suited to 12/15. id argue carty played pretty well for ireland too tbh, both times he played against wales he was pretty good and despite all the flack he gets he wasnt overly responsible for the loss against japan. his club form is very patchy unfortunately though and so probably isnt an option going forward. RB is unlucky in that in most of his games the irish pack were destroyed, he was very good against france though this year and his goalkicking is usually immaculate. JC is the most talented out of all the options to be honest but hes probably the least suited to 10 out of all of them. im quite worried that he is going to start for munster in big games going forward no matter what and we're going to lose out on someone like ben healy/jack crowley

aloooof wrote: »

If Farrell thinks that's the way to go, then that's professional sport. Sexton not being okay with it is not a reason not to do it.

thats how it should work, but i am a little unsure of just how much sway JS holds in the irish camp tbh

aloooof

sprucemoose wrote: »

fair enough (although i remember him saying that leinster should build around JC, not specifically with him at 10, but i could be wrong).

Iirc, the quote from Henry was along the lines of "there's your 10 for the next decade".

sprucemoose wrote: »

lancaster and cullen didnt though hence why they consistently went with JS and RB at 10 and JC at 15.

Interestingly tho, Joey got the 22 jersey for HC games. It may have been down to combinations.


I think we loosely agree tho on a lot with regards Carbery tho.

shootermacg

Joey is a clever player and I think he's able to run a game. There were several times that he looked for the pass behind option and it wasn't there. So I think a few times, it might have been a systems error.

You can see players making all kinds of errors during the Japan game. Larmour leaving his wing where he should have pendulum-ed to the centre of the pitch.

Burns not covering in defense as last man, instead sprinting to the opposite wing.

Japan made some great gains out of our mistakes, but we won the game, so I'm just going to put it down to rust and move on.

sprucemoose

aloooof wrote: »

Iirc, the quote from Henry was along the lines of "there's your 10 for the next decade".

quite probably true

aloooof wrote: »

Interestingly tho, Joey got the 22 jersey for HC games. It may have been down to combinations.

possibly but i suppose my point was more that RB was mostly starting at 10 when JS was injured rather than carbery

UAEguy2020

This weekend we should experiment but not experiment too much.

1 Kilcoyne
2 Kelleher
3 O’Toole
4 Molony
5 Baird
6 Coombes
7 VDF
8 Doris
9 Casey
10 Carbery
11 S.Daly
12 McCloskey
13 Hume
14 Balacoune
15 Keenan

16 Herring
17 Dooley
18 Ryan
19 Fycherley
20 Boyle
21 JGP
22 H.Byrne (if fit, if he was never injured I would have started him)
23 T.Day

Mixture of a structured team and experimenting, it’s a pointless exercise giving 12 debutants a cap and randomly chucking them out there, you need to have a purpose with these caps.

irelandrover

sprucemoose wrote: »

quite probably true

possibly but i suppose my point was more that RB was mostly starting at 10 when JS was injured rather than carbery

Was there games where Byrne was picked at 10 and Carberry didnt play?

TRC10

irelandrover wrote: »

Was there games where Byrne was picked at 10 and Carberry didnt play?

Yeah in the 17/18 season they definitely favoured R.B. at 10. Joey only started 1 game at 10 that season I'm fairly sure.

For the Pro14 semi final v Munster when they rested Johnny, R.B. played 10 with Joey at 15. Same for the Montpellier game at home.

Joey was out with a broken area from November to February I think.

They did favour Joey in the 22 shirt for his versatility. He played the Beauden Barrett 2015 role.

irelandrover

TRC10 wrote: »

Yeah in the 17/18 season they definitely favoured R.B. at 10. Joey only started 1 game at 10 that season I'm fairly sure.

For the Pro14 semi final v Munster when they rested Johnny, R.B. played 10 with Joey at 15. Same for the Montpellier game at home.

Joey was out with a broken area from November to February I think.

They did favour Joey in the 22 shirt for his versatility. He played the Beauden Barrett 2015 role.

I know that RB played 10 and carberry 15. But was there a time when Byrne played and a fit carberry was on the bench.

I always thought that Byrne at 10 and Carberry at 15 was just the best use of resources rather than a clear preference for Byrne over Carberry.