Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl

I'd take Ireland's last 10 years over Wales but I can see why people would view it differently. I put a lot of value in the two wins of NZ and the tour win in Aus (and indeed the win in SA) - all things Wales were never all that close to.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920633#Comment_117920633

They've many multiple the amount of professional rugby players we do theu should be winning more grand slams than us

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920679#Comment_117920679

There's no trophies for winning November internationals either (although you'd think there was the way we celebrate November wins here in Ireland).

In order to fail a step further, you have to progress a step further i.e. perform better, which Wales do.

We wouldn't have beaten France in a 1/4 final in 2019. We would have shat the bed like we always do. The teams who thrash us in the quarter finals always go out in the next round (and got well beaten in 2015 and 2019) . So it isn't like we get beaten by the best teams. We were better than Wales in 2011 and Argentina in 2015.

We'd look back on 2019 very differently had we won a knockout game in Japan.

I'm amazed that people actually think winning November internationals (when the SH teams are always tired and not at their best) compensate for our embarrassing world cup displays.

Podge_irl

I'd take 2 wins over NZ over an extra week in the world cup. Each to their own.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920801#Comment_117920801

Just for the record, you mentioned trophies, not me. You said you value trophies more. There are the same number of trophies for November internationals as there are for RWC SFs.

We had already beaten France in 2019 so it isn’t really a stretch to consider that we may have done so again. But my point wasn’t that we would have made the SF anyway, just that with our draw neither would Wales. So if all things were equal then they wouldn’t have done any better.

We probably would look at 2019 differently if it was different. But it wasn’t so we don’t. I’m not looking to say you’re wrong or anything. As Podge said (and I said earlier) people will prioritise things differently as that’s fine. My point simply was that by and large Irish supporters wouldn’t react well to the lows of a Jones or Gatland style tenure, yet will wax lyrical about the highs. A grass is greener type thing probably.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920825#Comment_117920825

Go back and look at what I said again. I said I value trophies AND world cup performance more than November internationals.

Us beating France in the 6N means nothing. In the World Cup cycle prior to 2015, we were 3/3 against Argentina. Yet when it really mattered we shat the bed.

In the 4 years prior to 2019, we were 2/3 against NZ. Yet when it was in a real competitive game with actual stakes, we shat the bed.

RichieRich_89

Wales would probably have won Ireland's group at the last World Cup if they were there instead, which means they'd have had a quarter against SA, not NZ. They got very close to SA in the semi. And even if they'd lost a qf against SA it would have been them going out to the eventual champions, so a bit better than Ireland.

Podge_irl

Us beating France in the 6N means nothing

I will fundamentally never agree with this and I guess that is where the difference lies.

Anyway, we didn't lose against Arg and NZ because "it mattered", we lost because in '15 we were missing shitloads of players and in '19 cause we were crap.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920863#Comment_117920863

It means nothing in terms of how we perform at World Cups. Of course winning 6N games matters within the 6N.

As I said, beating teams prior to the World Cup does not equal beating teams at the World Cup. There's literally no correlation. History shows it.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920820#Comment_117920820

Yeah, but I'm not sure I'd take the same against Aus or SA because we are used to beating them and for the most part we think we can beat them anytime we meet. That wasn't the same with NZ until we had beaten them so it's a fairly exceptional example. Getting 2 over on NZ was worth any amount of success in NH competition simply because never having beaten them we simply couldn't consider ourselves a genuinely top flight rugby team on a world stage. We were brutal in '19 when we met in the WC and very few people expected us to win with the year we'd had, but the chances of us ever competing with NZ in the WC were enhanced enormously by those two wins.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920633#Comment_117920633

A GS isn’t a trophy. You said it was all about trophies.

Way better means going one round further without winning a trophy?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920845#Comment_117920845

They have not done “miles” better at the RWC. They have won 2 games that we didn’t. One in a case where they had a substantially easier draw. Is perspective really such a bad thing?

RichieRich_89

I don't think it's all that outlandish to say getting to the semis and making a really tight game of it (in one case against the eventual winners) is doing miles better than getting beaten out the gate in the quarter finals.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921159#Comment_117921159

A GS is better than just winning a Championship, that's a fact. And Wales have done that more than us.

We have been utterly outplayed and comprehensively beaten in the quarters in the last 3 world cups, and each time by a team who've been knocked out the next week.

Wales got to the semi finals twice, one of which they would have won if it wasn't for a red card. And another where they got beaten by a last minute kick against the eventual champions.

So yes, Wales have done way better than us at World Cups.

But sure we win more November Internationals and people seem to be happy enough with that.

Podge_irl

Yes, Wales have done better at RWCs and received literally nothing for it (they have been smashed out the gate in the 3rd place playoffs). They also have an utterly awful record against SH teams.

I'm not "happy enough with it" but I'd prefer it to Wales record yeah. Losing 13 matches in a row to Australia and 31 matches in a row to NZ would irritate the **** out of me.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921425#Comment_117921425

Christ, if all you want to do is completely misrepresent what people are saying then count me out from here on, because that post is a load of utter b0ll0cks. Others have been happy to acknowledge that your point of view on what you would prefer is valid yet you can’t seem to do the same. This is pointless.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921484#Comment_117921484

Ah come on. 3rd place playoffs? Seriously? Who even remembers them.

I wonder do Welsh fans think

"Yeah we more often than not make it to the last 4 in World Cups and do our country proud at the biggest stage, but I'd much rather we had won more November Internationals against Australia"

I guarantee you they don't.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921519#Comment_117921519

And fair enough if that's what they want. I'd rather the 2 wins over NZ and the consistent results against Aus and SA personally.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921519#Comment_117921519

Welsh fans are more than one single homogenous group who all think the exact same thing. Like Irish fans. You know, cos people.

hold my beer

Can I just say that the last few days/pages of posts have been absolutely excruciating. That is all.

AbusesToilets

It's not simply about making it one game further in, we've never played well in a knock out game, bar 91 vs Australia and the 20mins after Fitz came on vs Argentina. Wales in comparison have always played their guts out in knock out games.

bilston

All I can say is that having been at the Aviva for the win over NZ...I left thinking I had pretty much completed rugby as a spectator...I don't know how it gets better than that short of winning a World Cup obviously. Maybe winning a semi final would beat it. But while reaching a World Cup semi final would represent progress, but unless we had beaten NZ I just don't see how I could enjoy it more than I enjoyed that famous night in November 2018.

arsebiscuits1

I'm genuinely not sure when this thread is worse.....

When the rugby isn't on.... or when the rugby IS on....

OneLungDavy

I think we should debate John Cooney again.

thomond2006

Zebo.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922900#Comment_117922900

Huzzah!

TheG0AT

is there anything to be said for having an oul debate about who was better between a prime JS10 and a prime ROG10.....

Must love hardship

Id like to debate the merits of selecting "journey men" project players over home grown talent for ireland and a potential return to the irish set up for paddy Jackson..

lawrencesummers

I think keenan is a fine player.

but hes a Volkswagen passat. Safe and solid without being flashy.

I dont think he has the ceiling and he defo doesn't have the versatility that zebo has.

Its clear that omitting Zebo from the training camp just gives the management an excuse not to involve him for longer, will that change on form between now and November?

I would love to see somebody quantify before the season starts what criteria the back 3 should be picked on, and then watch how players satisfy or not that criteria before the selection of the autumn international squad.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923409#Comment_117923409

Zebo debate it is so. And started on some style I might add.