Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

RichieRich_89

Best uncapped team at the moment?

1. Peter Dooley
2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. Keynan Knox
4. Mick Kearney
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Scott Penny
8. Jack O'Sullivan
9. Nathan Doak
10. Ciarán Frawley
11. Robert Lyttle
12. Tom Daly
13. Thomas Farrell
14. Tommy O'Brien
15. Jimmy O'Brien
16. Dan Sheehan
17. Jeremy Loughman
18. Jack Aungier
19. Ross Molony
20. Chris Cloete
21. Nick McCarthy
22. Ben Healy
23. Blane McIlroy's brother

But, obviously, Thornbury, Frawley, Lyttle, Farrell and TOB are always injured, so bump up Ahern, Lowry, Wootton, Stewart Moore and Nash.

Obviously if you were actually picking an 'A' side it might make more sense to give a bit more weighting to potential in selection decisions. I'm thinking Josh Wycherley instead of Loughman and David McCann ahead of Cloete.

aloooof

“You can sort of take your pick. I don't think we've been as blessed in the backrow for as long as I've been following rugby, you could come up with multiple combinations... the quality remains to be seen but I don't think we've the luxury of messing about with combinations unfortunately.”

I think it’s the strongest depth we’ve ever had, but in terms of quality of the 4 back-rowers in a match day squad, the 4 we (almost) had going to the 2011 RWC were the best we’ve ever had, in Wally, Ferris, O’Brien and Heaslip.

I’d agree tho, would love to see a 6/8 combo of Doris and Coombes, even if that’s harsh on Conan. Whatever happens, there’ll be some quality players missing out.

Former Former Former

In 2011 we also had Leamy, Jennings, McLaughlin, Wilson, Henry, Donnacha Ryan, Dominic Ryan, Ruddock, Muldoon, Coughlan and probably a few more I'm forgetting.

We're a fair bit off that in terms of both depth and top end quality IMO, but there's plenty to be optimistic about.

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022111#Comment_118022111

Our current crop are much better than those IMO. Only two of those were truly international test quality; Leamy and Henry. Donnacha Ryan was never really a back-rower.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022374#Comment_118022374

I don't know - when you add that list to O'Brien, Ferris, Wallace and Heaslip, it's well ahead of what we have now.

We have plenty of guys now who could become top-quality, but the conversion rate is always pretty low. Back in 2011, we all thought Dom Ryan and Willie Falloon were going to be internationals.

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023611#Comment_118023611

Sorry, I misinterpreted. I thought you said from that list alone they were better. When you include SOB, Heaslip, Ferris and Wallace, yes definitely stronger in 2011.

It will be interesting to see how Alex Kendellan develops, he's looked completely comfortable in his appearances for Munster so far.

Dubinusa

We have quite a few excellent back rows. None are as good as S.O.B; Ferris , Heaslip or Wallace. But the aforementioned were not always healthy at the same time!

It will be similar with today's players! Leavy has been cracked, Deegan missed a year and Doris can't stay fit! But, the likes of Boyle, Penny and Coombes can slot in. The backrow is strange. The balance seems to be hard to find!

pickarooney

When was the last time we had a proper fetcher 7? Are there any prospects with this key skill?

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024984#Comment_118024984

Kendellen

Dubinusa

Connors? Very good over the ball!

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024984#Comment_118024984

Leavy or Connors.

Clegg

I don't think Connors is an out and out poacher. He's an excellent tackler and linkman primarily. He can make turnovers at the breakdown, but it's not his forte.

pickarooney

I'd never got that impression of Connors either but I'll keep an eye out when he eventually comes back.

Scythica

All very quiet here...

So how long before Doaks the starting 9 eh?

pickarooney

Group game in the WC is my guess

Must love hardship

Can he box kick 80% of his possessions?

TRC10

I love Carbery as a player but he doesn't deserve to be anywhere near an Ireland squad right now. He has been awful all season so far.

People keep saying "he needs game time". He's been back since February!!!

Watching him and Carty tonight and it was chalk and cheese. I almost think he needs to go back to Clontarf over the international break and play a few games at 15 to get some confidence back.

On Carty, I've never really been on his hype train but based on tonight I think he deserves a shot this November. He took the ball to the line really well, his kicking was great and he was very composed in a very tough place to go.

Sexton, Carty, Burns for me.

molloyjh

Carty shouldn’t be anywhere near the Ireland squad. He’s woefully inconsistent. But then he has a good game and people are championing him. He has shown no more or less than last season. When he’s good, he is very good, but we have no idea on any given day whether he will deliver or not.

Ireland are in real trouble at 10. Sexton is playing well but behind him is a gaping chasm before we hit a bunch of players who simply aren’t Test level 10s. And that isn’t going to change in the near future. Carbery today really summed up where we are at 10. And it’s in a really bad place.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031129#Comment_118031129

Ah Carty should. He is inconsistent but so often he is playing behind poor pack/unperforming pack etc. We arent in great place at 10 but that just means we've to play more 10s in tests as what else can you do?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031136#Comment_118031136

In all honesty I don’t know. But Carty is not the answer. We’ve seen already this season how his performances can vary. He’d be utterly destroyed at Test level if he can’t find some form of consistency. I’d rather a consistently average 10 than a guy who could maybe win you a game or possibly lose you one either. No player deserves to be in a squad because he played well here and there. That isn’t good enough. Our standards have to be way higher than that. All that said, we aren’t exactly stacked with options either…..

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031143#Comment_118031143

That isn’t good enough. Our standards have to be way higher than that.

Our standards are only as high as the quality of players we have at our disposal. And the reality is, at 10, the quality isn't great.

Carty is in the same bracket as Burns and Carbery. So if we're not selecting Carty because he's not good enough, than Sexton will be the only out half in the squad.

Nobody is saying Carty is "the answer" but we need a 10 to backup Sexton and Carty is the best bet right now.

Stick Carty behind a pack going forward and there's a good 10 there, he doesn't always get that at Connacht. He's always done well when he got a chance for Ireland. The real sh*tshow against Japan started when Carbery came on.

RichieRich_89

I can't really see Carty getting back in. Farrell doesn't appear to like him as much as Smith did.

molloyjh

Carty cannot be relied upon to be anything other than wildly inconsistent. Very few, if any, coaches will select a player like that. It’s better to have a lesser but more consistent player in there because at least you know what you’re getting and you can make a plan around that. Carty doesn’t deserve to be selected ahead of any of the other players there. Everyone else has either shown more ability at Test level or more consistency generally. We don’t have “an answer” to the 10 problem. But playing a guy who you simply can’t rely on at league level is never going to get you any closer at Teat level. At this stage we simply have to hope that one or more of Harry Byrne, Crowley or Flannery step up or that Sexton remain fit. Playing Carty gets us nowhere.

EDIT: Maybe the best way to phrase this is that we know Carbery can be better than this. When it comes to Carty, all he has ever shown is that we don’t know whether he will ever be more consistent that he has been. So we have 1 guy who we know can do the job but isn’t delivering. On the other we have a guy who we don’t think can do the job and is only delivering in fits and starts, as he always has. Who are we really going to select of those two?

clsmooth

Of all the outhalves (Sexton aside) this season, I’d be most hopeful of Healy getting to a Dan Biggar type level over the course of his career (not meant in a disparaging way, he was always a step below the likes of Sexton and Farrell despite being Lions 10 this summer). Harry Byrne can’t stay fit which is a concern.

We’ve been spoilt having Sexton and O’Gara over the last 20+ years. Has any other team in world rugby heavily relied on two men at 10 over that same time period?

RichieRich_89

"Very few, if any, coaches will select a player like that"

??

We have a sample size of two Ireland head coaches. One of them favoured Carty over Burns and at least some of the time over Ross Byrne too.

I think what you mean is you yourself wouldn't select him.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031175#Comment_118031175

Do we know Carbery can do the job? He got a chance in July and was poor. He hasn't played a good game in nearly 3 years, he's a terrible defender and bar a decent cameo off the bench in Murrayfield in 2019, he's shown nothing that suggests he can be relied upon at test level. It's up in the air as to whether or not 10 is even his best position, that says it all. If you don't even know if your 2nd best 10 is a 10, you're in real trouble.

I don't believe Carty would be as inconsistent behind an Ireland pack as he is at Connacht, now I may be proven wrong on that, but it's my opinion based on what I've seen. And being a former out half myself, I know just how much easier it is to play behind a good pack. It's also worth noting that Carty seems to be more confident and in better form than he was last season.

In the limited opportunities he had with Ireland, I don't think he looked out of his depth at all. He played very well away against Wales albeit in a warm up game, but he still played well. He then set up 2 tries against Japan at the WC. Yes things went off the rails after 20 minutes, and I think a lot of blame was pinned on Carty unfairly for that game. And even if he did play poorly, and we were to cast out anyone who played poorly that day, then there are a lot of players who shouldn't be playing for Ireland right now.

I honestly don't see what we have to lose by giving him a chance against Japan. Worst case scenario, he isn't good enough in which case he's in the same bracket as Burns, Byrne and Carbery. And they've been given loads of chances. The other option is we play Sexton in all 3 games, or we start any of the other 3 and have confirmed what we already know, they aren't god enough.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031184#Comment_118031184

Healy needs to be given a chance in a big game first, but we all know that JVG will stick with his tried, trusted and failed until the end of time

Dubinusa

I think Healy will leapfrog Carberry. Joey has not impressed me as a 10. My hope is Crowley kicks on. He looks a fine prospect. HB is still a prospect. His injury profile is cause for concern.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031175#Comment_118031175

Burns has been woefully inconsistent for Ireland, and Carberry too. I don’t know if that’s a reason to exclude Carty from consideration given the situation. If consistency is the ne plus ultra then look no further than Ross Byrne because sextons injury profile makes him possibly the most inconsistent of them all. The chances of Sexton putting together 3 or 4 back to back tests in two years is vanishingly small. Farrell has no choice but to pick 2 others and give them starts. Coaching is a huge part of producing performances so Farrell has to step up and throw the dice.

Former Former Former

Honestly no idea what the solution is at out-half.

Carbery has not been good this season, so much hope has been put in him stepping up but he does not look like a man who could take the field against New Zealand. Maybe you throw him in, hope for the best but hope is all it would be.

Burns is probably the best bet at this point IMO. Like, his ceiling is not as high as we think/hope Carbery's is, but he might be the best all-round OH after Sexton.

I don't think Carty or R Byrne are worth persisting with.