Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081842#Comment_118081842

I think it's fair to say there is a question mark over his durability more recently, but it's appeared more frequently for Leinster than Ireland. For example, last season:

• For Leinster, he started 5 games and came off injured in 4 of them. 3 of those were in the 1st half.
• For Ireland, he started 6 games and came off injured in 1, the Wales ANC game, also in the 1st half.

Maybe there's a case that the substitutions for Leinster were more precautionary, but coming off injured in 5 games out of 11 (and 4 of those in the 1st half) is a concern.

Former Former Former

We have given plenty of game time to players other than Sexton.

The problem is that none of them have been good enough to pull away from the rest of the pack.

The problem isn't that we don't have someone good enough to replace Sexton, it's that we don't have anyone good enough to be second choice.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081989#Comment_118081989

I think a lot of the time with Leinster it is a case of looking after him. His record for Ireland, when it counts the most, hasn’t been bad at all. Or at least certainly not as bad as some would make out.

Must love hardship

Will be interesting to see if Sexton stays on after next years six nations.

Some people will say its only another year after the 6 nations until the world cup.

But if you look back O'driscoll retired after 2014 six nations and I remember him saying it wasn't just another year it was another 2 full pre seasons he would have to have put in, in order to get to the world cup.. obviously others tried it like D'Arcy and it didn't exactly work out for them..

Id say if the body is willing sexton will try and stay for the WC and id gladly take him as at least a bench option to close out a game. Hard to see 3 options pushing ahead of him if his performance levels don't dip too much.

Even if he didn't make the WC squad you'd never know he could be called up late like Stephen Donald back in 11.

However my worry is we make the same mistake as the last world cup in that our captain was past his best and because he retained the captaincy he was nearly undroppable even though his performance levels were dropping Rapidly.

Id happily give Johnny his 100th cap this November while still retaining captaincy but going forward to the 6 nations and towards the world cup id like to see a new younger captain being tried out and sexton retained in the leadership group.

My potential options would be:

Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, Ringrose, and Murray.

This years Nov Internationals could be a chance to try one or 2 options out.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081732#Comment_118081732

Yup. That'd be nice for a change. '91 is the only time it's happened before.

I think they have to aim to start a qf fast - like hell for leather fast. They have to attack it and try to set the tempo. There's no point reacting after the opposition have set the standard. Far too often that's been the problem - 2003, 2011, 2015 were all games Ireland were playing catch-up in after the first quarter. They have to come out the gate with massive intensity, not a mindset of doing just enough to get over the line in a tight game.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081963#Comment_118081963

I think aloof has answered this above, played 11 and came off injured in nearly half of them last season, and he came off early holding his hamstring last week in one of his first games of the season. But I'm not arguing over what that means, for me it means you'd be mad to bank on him being available for 3/4/5 consecutive games in 2 years, for you it might not be an issue. The point I'm making that I don't think is controversial is that regardless of where his replacements are quality wise, one or two of them will be doing much of the heavy lifting come the next World Cup, ready or not.

pickarooney

World Cup games come thick and fast, 5 to 6 days turnaround if you're Samoan and not much more respite for Tier 1 teams. I don't know if he have any OH who could realistically play three pool games and not get injured or **** something up.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082560#Comment_118082560

And I responded to that as I’m sure you saw. He didn’t come off holding his hamstring vs Scarlets btw. He apparently had a hip injury. Different part of the body. But he was moving fine leaving the field and wandering around after the game. Like many of his “injuries” for Leinster it seemed very precautionary. Which all makes sense when you see his availability for Ireland, which you are conveniently continuing to ignore. His availability for Ireland has rarely been an issue. I obviously don’t want us to be relying on Sexton in 2023, but at this point we have to acknowledge that it is a possibility.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082112#Comment_118082112

Perhaps he should retire from club rugby so that he can concentrate on international rugby?

😉

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082974#Comment_118082974

Worked for Warburton and alun wynn

:P

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082938#Comment_118082938

I'm not trying to ignore anything, yes Sexton has shown up for Ireland AND he is injured a lot. Leinster subbing him for injuries as a precaution just tells me they worry about him getting injured, they're not doing that with the rest of the squad. The guy plays a dozen games a year and gets injured with some regularity, you'd be mad to assume he will remain available as he gets even older. I'm not sure at this point whether you're denying there is an issue with Sexton's durability?

Anyhow, the point remains, even if Sexton is part of the squad in 2023 we need 1 if not 2 other out halves who you would play against a top team in a knock out game. There is still a lot of top level rugby to play and opportunities for these two to emerge from the pack but I'd expect to see starts in big games get spread around from now on.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082123#Comment_118082123

Murray as a candidate for captaincy seems unlikely, we haven't seen much of him this season but I'd guess he is not a guaranteed starter by the time the 6N comes around, certainly not a dead cert like he's been.

UAEguy2020

The big difference between RWC's and 6N is preparation, the reason we always bomb out of RWC's is we never prepare for RWC's. 2015 we never prepared for if our best players were out and 2019 we never evolved our game when we needed to, we seem content to just make excuses after the fact then go out and actually fix the problem, we are already doing the same thing with Sexton now, no intent on fixing the problem the 10, just keep him there and hope the problem fix's itself. Excuses are nice but excuses don't get you a semi final let alone a RWC win.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082123#Comment_118082123

"My potential options would be:

Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, Ringrose, and Murray."

The only one of those players that's guaranteed to start if fit is Furlong. And for some reason I don't really see him as a captain.

Also I really appreciate you bringing up Donald in 2011. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy 😁

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082974#Comment_118082974

I think we gave Keith Woods a free run of club rugby into his last W/C campaign and it ended like all our other W/C Campaigns.

I'm in the boat of not blaming Farrell for pick Sexton as our outhalf as we have no one that is close enough to him to take his jersey and I'm also of the view that the pretenders will not get better with experience but I do not want us to be heading to the next W/C with Sexton on the panel.

At this stage I'd got with Sexton for the AIs and the 6Ns and then hope for the best.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083955#Comment_118083955

But if Sexton is good enough and fit enough to be on the panel, why wouldn't we have him @ WC?

Is it just the fear that he'll be injured?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084037#Comment_118084037

Being on the panel is grand, he can be a backup which means his game time should be limited.

It is, IMO, delusional to think that a 38 year old would be able to cut it as your primary out half at a world cup.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084037#Comment_118084037

A 38 yo is never going to be fit enough for a W/C campaign and considering the restrictions around adding players to panels then I think he should be left at home

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084169#Comment_118084169

It’s highly, highly unlikely to be the case all right. As others have pointed out, form can fall off a cliff quite quickly at this stage in his career. And I’d hate to see that happen to Sexton tbh. He doesn’t deserve to have his career end like that.

At the end of the day time will tell I suppose. It would be pretty exceptional if he were still delivering at 38, but is it totally impossible? I don’t know. Hopefully we won’t have to find out.

sydthebeat

at least we will be able to see with sexton how his form is in big games as Leinster will expect to be in contention at the business end of the competitions we are in... plus the 6n of '22 and '23

if sexton isnt up to the level required during the 6N of '22 then he should be jettisoned. if he is, great. then we look to the business end of the champions cup and see how his form is.

sexton shouldnt travel to NZ in summer 22.

thats the test for the probable incumbents. 3 tests against the best.

sexton then does a leinster preseason and we see again how his form is. if hes playing good enough for 6N '23 we should include him. Again thats another litmus test, if hes the best 10 we have, we still play him. if he cant hack it. P45 time.

we then have champions cup business end '23 to test him.

plenty of time lads

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080956#Comment_118080956

That's not all he can do really. He can be proactive and limit Sexton's minutes now as he won't be the option going forward. We're going to get to a world cup in 2 years time and whether Sexton is first choice or not, we will need another 10 in the squad who will be starting important games. A 38 year old Sexton won't start them all and is unlikely to stay fit. At this point it looks likely we'll have a tonne of posters wondering how Ireland are playing in a world cup with a 10 who has barely any meaningful minutes at test level. We're repeating the same mistakes and people seem to be cheering it on.

And Christ if I read another 'coach knows best' argument. May as well shut down the forum if that's where we're going

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084400#Comment_118084400

That's not all he can do really. He can be proactive and limit Sexton's minutes now as he won't be the option going forward.

I completely agree and never said Sexton should play every game. I'd only play him v NZ.

But when it comes to the important games, all Farrell can do is play his best XV.

Farrell is being proactive. He left him out of the July squad to invest in Carbery and he's probably going to start Carbery v Argentina, a tier 1 nation.

I never said the coach knows best. I've been massively critical of Farrell and in all honestly I can't see him winning a 6N or WC 1/4 final. But when it comes to the out half situation, I genuinely don't see what more he can be doing.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084400#Comment_118084400

Whatever side you fall down on in the Sexton argument, I don't think I've seen anybody cheering it on.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084169#Comment_118084169

But he is currently cutting it as our primary out half. He is head & shoulders above anyone else.

It is unusual to have such a long career at the top but not impossible...Brad Thorn being an example. He turned 38 when at Leinster. He then went on to play for Highlanders and Leicester. (He even came out of retirement at 41 to play for Queensland Country.)

If he continues to play well and stay fit. He definitely should be our 10. I hope he's not but I hope that's due to someone kicking on and overtaking him with ability.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084743#Comment_118084743

2nd rows are very different to fly halves.

2nd rows very often peak in their mid 30s anyway. O'Connell, Matfield, Thorn, Fardy, Donnacha Ryna, AWJ all played arguably their best rugby when they were 34 or older.

An fly half playing at the highest level at 38 is pretty much unheard of.

AbusesToilets

Sexton has mentioned Brady as an inspiration. Slightly different physical demands certainly, but it's not insane to say he could keep playing.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084886#Comment_118084886

They aren't slightly different physical demands, they are totally different. Tom Brady doesn't really have to move at all and if he's unlucky he might get tackled a couple of times max in a game (though often won't be touched), and he never has to make a tackle.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085077#Comment_118085077

True, but conversely Sexton doesn't have 350lb monsters smashing him either. The point is more that sports science has advanced to the point that a player can realistically play to a high level much later than before. There's nothing that says Sexton has to play how does currently in the defensive structure. ROG was hidden for years, as have many other OHs.

pickarooney

A quarterback plays what, 15 minutes a game up to 16 times a season, makes 0 tackles and barely has to run.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084886#Comment_118084886

Keep playing? Until when?

Time waits for no man. He like every other player before him is coming to the end of his career. I genuinely can't see Sexton himself wanting to play international rugby at 38.