Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107204#Comment_118107204

Yes. If it’s 50/30 mins for Carbery/Sexton or vice versa, I think that’s reasonable enough. If Sexton is still on after 70 mins, then I'd be much more critical. Or if a combo of Murray and Sexton are on beyond 55 mins.

Question for you, TRC. Presumably you were absolutely delighted with Farrell's 8 new caps in the USA game, given all your criticism in the lead up around it? It was exactly the kind of thing you were calling for, right?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107272#Comment_118107272

You must've missed this post of mine. I'll leave it here for you, for your reference. It's almost like he's doing exactly what you want.

Out of interest, I checked how Farrell compares vs his peers and their predecessors also. In terms of new caps per game, he’s ahead of everyone bar Galthie.

Andy Farrell - 22 new caps in 16 games

Ian Foster - 14 new caps in 17 games

Steve Hansen - 22 new caps took 29 games

Eddie Jones - 22 new caps took 20 games

Stuart Lancaster - 22 new caps took 18 games

Galthie - 27 new caps in 15 games

Brunel - 22 new caps took 17 games

Pivac - 18 new caps in 16 games

Townsend - 22 new caps in 18 games

Dave Rennie - 17 new caps in 17 games

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107362#Comment_118107362

You're missing the point completely.

It's not about giving new caps.

I have never once criticised Farrell for not giving enough new caps. He's done brilliantly in that regard.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107236#Comment_118107236

And why should they?

Our win ratio against them is 50% over the last five years. Yeah, they'll be hot favourites but they're not invincible.

We absolutely can win.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107321#Comment_118107321

I'm not sure how Farrell giving new caps in the summer (which I was happy about and never once criticised him for not giving new caps) is relevant to the out half discussion.

Farrell is clearly going all in on Carbery as his no.2 (wouldn't have been my choice but that's the direction he has gone. So what better opportunity than an Autumn international against a side we'd expect to beat to have him steer the ship and gain experience against.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107448#Comment_118107448

So just to be clear, you're happy with the squad development for the rest of the squad? It's just the 10 situation you have issues with?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107448#Comment_118107448

If Carbery doesn’t start this weekend he will come off the bench. He’ll then almost certainly come off the bench against NZ and start against Argentina. How much benefit the extra 30-40 mins vs Japan will be in the long term is very debatable. I’d argue it isn’t going to make much difference come September 2023. So is it really something to be getting hung up on?

The problem I and a lot of others have with this style of posting is that you are effectively setting criteria that you can use against the coach if he doesn’t do things “your way”. What if Sexton starts and he gives both of them 40 mins? That’s wildly different to Sexton starting and playing 75 mins. Yet your position is pretty categorical despite your knowledge of what is going to happen being anything but. You make no allowance for the nuances of what might happen or what the plan might be.

You haven’t acknowledged that the USA game may have led to a totally different approach more aligned with what you are thinking and the cancellation of that game needs to be accounted for. All this stuff makes you seem unwilling to give credit or allowance if the exact thing you want doesn’t happen.

I’d love to see Joey start this weekend. But if it doesn’t happen I also understand why. Because I’ve made at least some effort to consider this from Farrells perspective. Farrell has shown absolutely no issue throwing young lads in once he feels they are ready. He’s also made plenty of effort to look at other options at 10. Hopefully Carbery and Byrne can repay the faith he has shown in them. But we need to acknowledge that this isn’t a coach who refuses to back youth, or a coach who doesn’t have a longer term plan or anything like that. He’s already proven that he is those things. So from that perspective at least we should all be able to cut him a bit of slack.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107510#Comment_118107510

Absolutely.

I'm actually pretty objective, even if people want to portray me as being a moaner who criticises no matter what.

I've acknowledged umpteen times that Farrell's hands have been somewhat tied regarding the 10 situation over the last 2 years, and I've stuck up for him in here when he's been getting dogs abuse from some.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107553#Comment_118107553

And maybe I’m being harsh given some of the other posts on the topic. If so, I apologise. I just see so many posts that set out a “if this doesn’t happen then Farrell is wrong” stuff that seems to be designed as a kind of pre-emptive strike.

Dubinusa

Lads! These matches are probably the best opportunity to bed some younger players. I realize MK is probably just guessing. But why not play O'Toole, Hume and Coombes from the start!

Sexton can bench! Jesus, he's played more domestic matches this season than he has in years. At least so far. What's the harm of giving Casy the start? Win or lose this is a golden opportunity!

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107553#Comment_118107553

Hallelujah. ;)

Look, fair play for admitting that Farrell is in fact doing a large amount of what you're actually calling for. It's just a bit frustrating as I don't think I had seen much acknowledgement of this from you, especially in comparison to the volume and tone of criticism e.g. "Jesus Christ", you'd be forgiven for thinking you've no praise for Farrell.

(And admittedly your criticism was nowhere near some of the other guff we've seen...).

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107619#Comment_118107619

Sexton hasn’t played with Ireland in over 7 months. Murray has only played 21 mins this season so is in desperate need of minutes, even just from a match fitness perspective. Porter, Furlong, Henderson, Beirne, Conan, Aki, Henshaw etc are all in the same boat as Sexton. Some might be able to just slot in against NZ without any previous run out in green, but I’d imagine most need the game time in the set-up.

As for the “win or lose” bit, the IRFU and broader rugby public would not take losing to Japan at home well at all, regardless of selection. Imagine losing 2 from 3 AIs!? The reaction would not be good. They’d then need a win vs Argentina or risk losing 3 games in a row at home.

Farrell has been bedding in players and will continue to do so. He doesn’t have to do it all at once.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107204#Comment_118107204

This is my sentiment. We've beaten NZ twice, beating them a third time would be nice. But developing the squad for the 6Ns and beyond to the WC is more important. Hence why I'd chuck 2 or 3 younger players in against NZ.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107716#Comment_118107716

I think I'd largely agree with that tbh. That doesn't have to be Carbery or Harry Byrne tho. Personally, I'd love to see some of Baloucoune, Coombes and/or Kelleher get a start.

It's possibly worth mentioning as well that there'll be a cohort of guys like Keenan, Doris, even Conan (maybe surprisingly) who'll almost certainly be involved but have never played a test vs NZ before. It'll be a good experience for them too.

Dubinusa

Farrell has been fantastic at bringing in new blood. No doubt! But, shouldn't the new blood be included in games that ask a lot more than the U.S?

That's were I think he falls a little short. Capping lads against poor sides is not much of a benefit. I get that the squad hasn't been together in a while, however, dropping a couple of new lads into this fixture and having the regulars on the bench is not a bad start, imo.

How about this line up v Japan.

1. Porter

2. Herring

3. O'Toole

4. Henderson

5. Dillane

6. Coombes

7. POM

8. Doris

9. Casey

10. JC

11. Zebo

12. McCloskey

13. Ringrose

14. Balacoune

15. Keenan.

Bench. Kilcoyne, Sheehan, Bealham, Beirne, Timoney, Murray, Sexton and Larmour.

A couple of youngsters and Sheehan and Timoney included on the bench! That would be my preference. I know a few lads don't rate McCloskey and would not select him. My thinking is he can get over the gainline and he has offloading ability. Carbonless a start. It will give us here on the boards lot's to piss and moan about. Henderson needs minutes as does Beirne! Of course, lot's may disagree and so on, but mixing the squad up a little I think is beneficial in the long run!

UAEguy2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106799#Comment_118106799

He shouldn't start against Japan, I can accept maybe 20-30 minutes to get some extra minutes into the legs for the NZL game the following week but this is a game where Carbery should start if not Byrne so they get that extra experience at managing a game against tier one opposition. We probably have only 3 games we will play between now and the next autumn where a 10 will realistically have such an opportunity, to waste one of them would be extremely frustrating. Realistically we should be beating Japan and Argentina with any of our 10s playing and if that's even disputed then our problems are far greater than who's at 10 anyway.

Im of the belief that while we have issues at 10 I feel our issues are compounded by that fact our back play is so pretentious and dare I say it amateurish at times. When you have a backline that functions so poorly as ours does you probably need you're 10 to step up even more than the average 10 in order to be able to somehow make it work hence why maybe our other 10s while they havent set the world alight maybe look worse than they actually are because of other compounding issues like the reasons I give. I mean when we have a penalty advantage +90% of the time Sexton just aimlessly kicks the ball away rather than release the backs, that in itself probably tells you the state of our backlines general attack.

UAEguy2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107204#Comment_118107204

Well I definetly dont accept sacrificing a game just to give a 10 game time ( thats the mindset of a loser, something we dont need if we want to compete at the RWC) but I agree about playing Sexton being a waste of time in this fixture. Realistically we should beat Japan with any of our 3 10s playing and if anything playing a more experienced team might be detrimental as they may have 1 eye on NZL the following week and may not give 100% and as a result struggle and create a negative vibe with the public, something we dont need going into the NZL if we want to have any chance in that.

UAEguy2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118107314#Comment_118107314

Its not just 80 minutes against Japan, its that plus an hour versus Argentina, 15 minutes or so in each 6N match (bar Italy) , a start potentially against Italy and potentially the same 15 minutes in the summer, its about him building minutes overtime. No 10 is magically going to improve in one match, it takes a run of games in the shirt. If not Carbery then Harry Byrne but either way we need to be giving our back up 10 game time like this at the very least if they are going to improve at this level, continuing to chop and change and only play Sexton may not cost us games now but we can then have no surprise when we ask ourselves why is no-one challenging Sexton.

Dubinusa

I agree! Sexton should probably come off the bench in the non 6nations games! If he still out guy come the world cup, it says a lot about his class and desire.

There isn't too many matches left to bed somebody else! It's the same issue for scrum half! But, I don't worry too much about 9, because there's a lot of lads that can step in and do the job! Imo.

If we do beat the All Blacks, great! But we did beat them in 2018 and by 2019 we were gash! We have 3 bites of the cherry in the summer series too!

I think changes now are beneficial down the road. I wouldn't change players just for the sake of changing, the changes are purely to get lads up to speed at top level international rugby. This to me is very important.

UAEguy2020

Another factor is beating NZ is exactly what Farrell needs to get most of the Irish public onside atleast for the moment so I do think he will want to go all out to do so. It's the one win he could have that would make up for alot of the negative things that have happened under his tenure so far.

I wouldnt change for the sake of change either but there has to genuinely be a plan to get other 10's involved, it doesnt have to be drastic but we simply cant keep playing games where Sexton plays 78 minutes, thats just utter madness especially if he's going to be 37 next year.

Can't see anything other than a first choice 15 this weekend with the possibility that some depth will be tested off the bench but may not feature the following week.

With that in mind.

Porter

Kelleher

Furlong

Henderson

Ryan

Doris

VDF

Conan

JGP

Sexton

Balcoune

Aki

Ringrose

Earls

Keenan

I would not at all be surprised if it's Lowe and Larmour on the wings, Earls I have in on experience and Balcoune I have in as he needs a proper run out.

Beirne, O'Mahony, Herring or Coombs similarly could all start and I wouldn't be surprised.

Dubinusa

You're probably right! The result is probably what matters to management. If so, it's a opportunity lost!

TRC10

I'm absolutely amazed that anyone is leaving Tadhg Beirne out of their XVs.

I'd have him up with Furlong and Henshaw as our best players. The guy was phenomenal last season.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118108127#Comment_118108127

It isn’t only about winning this game though. It’s about solidifying our form from the 6Ns and building confidence. It’s about getting ready for a massive test next week. It’s about trying to find the right balance between the now, the short term future, the medium term future and the long term future. It’s about managing players (both physically and mentally) to ensure they can deliver to as close to their ability as possible etc etc etc.

And while there is no one singular concern at play here, the sh!t show we’d face if we lost at home to Japan certainly wouldn’t be worth it. So yes, winning this game is a consideration too.

As I said before, the plan was to have a 4 Test series. This would have allowed for more experimentation and more development. That’s gone now though so we need to just deal with the realities of that. For all we know at this stage anyway we will see a bit of a mix this weekend.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105337#Comment_118105337

We're playing Japan first. What are we going to learn about Sexton in that game (if the mooted team is accurate)?

Porter, Kelleher, Bealham, Beirne, Dillane, Coombes, Van Der Flier, Conan, Casey, Byrne, Baloucoune, Frawley, Larmour, Zebo

Decent mix of players who could start an important match in a pinch, young lads we know nothing about yet, a few rising stars and players on the periphery and a few more ball players. Japan will test us in a lot of areas and we need to know if our squad players are up to it or if they'll just be going to the world cup as emergency backup.

molloyjh

We don’t have to learn anything. What we know and what we don’t is utterly, utterly irrelevant. The only people whose opinions are relevant are the coaches. And they should be learning loads about players without ever having to play them in Test matches. If they aren’t then they aren’t doing their jobs.

That’s not to say that they know it all and are always right and can’t be questioned. But it does mean that these Tests are categorically not the only way that the relevant people can learn about players.

ersatz

Whew, here I am moaning about people moaning about people moaning.

On a very positive note, at least the younger players are available, in good form and coming off decent periods without injuries. A series of three tough games like this means that we'll see these players get good game time even if they don't all get starts. We might just think very differently about some of these selection questions in a months time.

highball14

Who do people think will be our best out half not including Sexton by 2023? Farrell must think it will be Carbery or Harry Byrne. I just wonder is there any chance Ben Healy or Ciaran Frawley if really given the chance could prove to be the best option? Really given the chance is the main thing. All 5 out halves I’ve mentioned are at 2 provinces along with Ross Byrne and Jack Crowley. In the other 2 provinces there’s Carty and not much else. Billy Burns isn’t near international standard in my opinion. Out half is probably the most important position so I just wonder would Ireland be much better off if the out halves were spread out between the provinces and have a potential starting International out half starting and really developing in each province instead of Carbery, Healy and Crowley having to share game time at Munster and Harry Byrne and Frawley (who’s not being played at 10) having to share with Sexton and Ross Byrne.

Larbre34

It should be Harry Byrne, but on current trajectory, it'll be Ben Healy.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118108212#Comment_118108212

Frawley isn’t playing 10 for Leinster and isn’t going to be playing 10 for Leinster, unless there is a massive injury crisis. It’s safe to say Frawley is not a 10 and certainly not an international 10.