Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof · 05-11-2021 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123243#Comment_118123243

Well, the conversation was going well there for awhile… 🙄

sydthebeat · 05-11-2021 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123193#Comment_118123193

very fair point there. yes i agree that everyone has a responsibility when it comes to AIL, but i dont think simple attendance is going to fix any problem in the medium term. for myself, my closest AIL team is Naas in 1B or Tullamore in 2C.. and there is absolutely NO connection between my local club and either of those AIL teams.

on the NZ comparison, i guess i was pointing to the AIL as being directly below our Provincial System, as NPC is directly below Super rugby, but i accept the point that, from what i read about AIL, the standard between NPC and Super rugby is closer than AIL and irish provinces. However i dont believe that always has to be the case.

Most provinces will have a squad of 40ish seniors. On any game week you can only have 23 in a match day squad, which leaves 17ish players in each province with no game each weekend. these players should be encouraged to go back to play AIL. Darcy and Keith wood had a good conversation about it on Wednesday night on OTB. They did mention cases where its happening (Crowley lining out for cork con this weekend) but these are very much exceptions rather than common place.

I think there is certainly scope to use AIL better, to improve provincial players and at the same time improving the standard of the AIL

Lost Ormond · 05-11-2021 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123309#Comment_118123309

Getting Attendances up is far from a solution but it would be a start. clubs need to be far more innovative in how they get people in the door and provinces and irfu need to assist with this a lot more. Affiliation is an issue but theres lot who dont support any rugby bar the pro game in ireland and that really needs to change for the sport to develop more. The contracted players do need to play more club rugby and ideally that would have a knock on affect with more teams being able to be fielded. I know the days are long gone when clubs could field 8/9 teams in Dublin or 3/4 in other parts of country for parts of season but moving back in that direction makes sport at pro level stronger over time.

Im currently working on something on AIL and hope to publish it in few months time when i find lot more info especially earlier years of the league which are not available on irfu site which apart from listing winners of the league dont have any results/league tables from before 2000...

molloyjh · 05-11-2021 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123309#Comment_118123309

I thought we were already seeing more provincial players going back to AIL this season than previous season. Is that not the case?

Clegg · 05-11-2021 3:33pm

Very good interview with James Lowe ahead of tomorrow's game. Seems that he's his biggest critic and has taken on board all the criticism he received for his poor defensive reads.

It also highlights why Andy Farrell brought him into the team in the first place. They see him as an all round footballer who is comfortable slotting in as an auxiliary playmaker as well as doing his role as a finisher. I don't think we've seen much of his playmaking skills, but everyone in the backline has struggled to make an impact offensively. Coaching issue there I think.

He's also trimmed down a bit. Think some posters mentioned that he looked slimmer? That can only help his game I think. Very honest interview and one I enjoyed reading.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-40737372.html

Lsdrugbyfan · 05-11-2021 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123437#Comment_118123437

somewhat, but not majorly.. mostly academy players, senior players outside of a few notable players aren't playing AIL.

pickarooney · 05-11-2021 3:48pm

Ulster signing an aged Duane Vermeulen when Max Deegan is crying out for game time is a big faux pas IMO. I might eat my words next year but I see it as a wasted opportunity as well as a waste of money. I know it's yet another Leinster back row but I still think it's better than an older player from abroad.

The URC schedule makes things particularly hard for players like Deegan to get minutes on the pitch. I think he'd relish the opportunity to show his obvious talents after a long lay off.

aloooof · 05-11-2021 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123452#Comment_118123452

“[Andy Farrell etc] see him as an all round footballer who is comfortable slotting in as an auxiliary playmaker as well as doing his role as a finisher.”

It’s a bit unclear, tbh. There’s no direct quotes from Farrell. The bit about him being an auxiliary playmaker is written in a way that it could just as easily be from the author of the piece as much as anything.

Here’s the 2 specific paragraph.

“Farrell is clear as to the type of James Lowe he wants to see on the field. Be yourself, is the nub of his advice to the Kiwi-born wing who likes to work his way into a game if the ball isn’t finding him out wide.

Lowe can beat players and score tries, He can act as a scrum-half or a first receiver when required and he has a left boot on him that shrinks a pitch. If he can get the defensive aspect right then the potential rewards are obvious.”

This bit is pretty funny tho:

"... don't say that in a prick of a way..."

Luckycharm · 05-11-2021 3:51pm

An awful lot of whining that the Irish Management only seem to pick Leinster players etc

So had a look to a the Irish management team to see their links to Leinster which must confirm their Bias.

Andy Farrell - Rugby League legend, played for England towards end of Career, Link to Leinster ZERO has actually done short term coaching stints at both Munster and Ulster.

Simon Easterby Defence coach - coached and played for Scarlets/Ireland Link to Leinster Zero[/b]

Mike Catt backs coach - coached and played for Bath/England Link to Leinster ZERO

Paul O'Connell forwards coach - we know his CV - Link to Leinster ZERO

John Fogarty scrum coach- Tipperary man played for Munster, Connacht and Leinster. Was Leinsters scrum coach, so Munster man who has link to Leinster.

Given nearly all the coaches have no connection to Leinster and include a Munster LIgend, maybe they just think those players are simply better, IMAGINE THAT.

Clegg · 05-11-2021 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123536#Comment_118123536

Deegan is just beginning to make his comeback from a serious knee ligament injury. Don't think any province would have taken a chance on him this season.

In the long run, the URC and its lack of fixtures will mean that more and more younger players will leave Leinster for opportunities elsewhere. For instance, Scott Penny was voted the best young player in the league last season, yet he's only started one game this season.

TheRona · 05-11-2021 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123138#Comment_118123138

Taranaki was Hurricanes territory back when Bent was there. It was only moved into Chiefs catchment in 2013, I think.

Although players do move quite freely for opportunity at Super Rugby level, I'd still say players would prefer to play for their home Super side. At the end of the day, they'll go where they get the best opportunity to play, and potentially challenge for titles and/or get selected for the All Blacks.

Lsdrugbyfan · 05-11-2021 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123584#Comment_118123584

he missed out on a start due to illness

sydthebeat · 05-11-2021 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123606#Comment_118123606

i didnt know that, thanks!

aloooof · 05-11-2021 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123561#Comment_118123561

Was there an awful lot of whining? Or was there just one poster? Which is only one more than ZERO.

ujjjjjjjjj · 05-11-2021 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123561#Comment_118123561

Oh stop being so logical, everyone knows the real selector for Ireland is Leo the Lion and actually the team should be nearly entirely made up of Munster Liginds...............

Luckycharm · 05-11-2021 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123662#Comment_118123662

Well POC is the Forwards coach and a Munster Ligend and he won't even select them 😅

Lost Ormond · 05-11-2021 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123243#Comment_118123243

Bit different in circumstances in New Zealand and it isnt simply excuses but of course thats going to be the line you of all people will come out with. Munster did mess up when they were ahead but it isnt all excuses now

awec · 05-11-2021 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123561#Comment_118123561

I think you've missed the point being discussed.

ujjjjjjjjj · 05-11-2021 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123735#Comment_118123735

😀 Exactly - it's all a big conspiracy to promote the Leinster Agenda to take over Irish Rugby !! 😀 Even POC is in on it.......

Been reading these forums for years and the Ireland ones do get a bit tedious..............X province doesn't have enough players and slagging off other players from another province in that position.......

Rob Kearney was the classic one - endless abuse for the greatest fullback Ireland has ever had with someone who got a couple of provincial caps in another province in that position being automatically better....I remember being down in a bar in Limerick one year just after Felix Jones started playing and being told by numerous Munster Heads that it was crazy Felix wasn't starting at fullback for Ireland and Rob was just useless......

TomsOnTheRoof · 05-11-2021 4:55pm

I think I'm going to give this place a miss for a while. Any chance of decent discussion is ruined by bitter provincialism. For the record, it's Connacht and Ulster who can feel most aggrieved by the selection for the Japan game so the fact that the usual suspects are using this as an excuse to have a go at Munster is pathetic.

stephen_n · 05-11-2021 5:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123214#Comment_118123214

One quote as part of an interview when he was being asked about his participation in the WC, is not evidence to support you’re original point. You can try and make it that if you want but you will simply be trying to make reality fit your viewpoint.

winning the lottery is written in my long term plans. I’m not giving up work based on the desire to win it though.

Will be interesting to see how accurate your crystal ball is. We should bookmark this for later.

It is debatable what our strongest team is. There has been plenty of debate about it. Debating isn’t making declarative statements, based on your opinions, as if they’re facts though.

Dubinusa · 05-11-2021 5:09pm

Some great points and insights. Particularly concerning Leinster players that have made a move! Regarding Jordi Murphy! Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that he's overlooked due to Ulster not having similar personnel on the team as Leinster? I think it's possible that because Leinster are more dominant and do have better players, a player like Jordi would not catch the eye of the national set up!

I'm not saying Jordi should be selected, it just seems like he's fallen down the pecking order somewhat.

The population discussion is interesting also. Leinster do have inherent advantages and that plain to see. But population doesn't matter when it comes to England or France! France have won nothing in years despite having numerical advantages and with England's playing population, you'd expect some more silverware.

SA and NZ have the Currie cup and the mitre cup. We don't have anything like that. Maybe the AIL has been neglected. Very few players make pro rugby from the AIL. Matt Healy would be one and Ned Cronin?

The raw materials are there for the other provinces. Look at Connacht. With Forde, McCormick and Jenning, there's 3 potential quality pros. Same for Ulster, Sheridan; Moxham etc. Let's see how these players develop.

bilston · 05-11-2021 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123536#Comment_118123536

Ulster have a very promising young No.8 in David McCann, he's only maybe 21, but many think he has the potential to be an international, time will tell on that, but signing Vermuelen for 18 months will be great for his development.

That said I've always thought Ulster should have been looking at Deegan. I'd be surprised if they weren't to be honest. But not many teams would turn down the chance to sign Duane Vermuelen.

bilston · 05-11-2021 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123561#Comment_118123561

Have people been whining about bias in selection?

I think people have discussing the wider issue of why the Ireland team is basically becoming an Leinster Schools Old Boys XV.

It's not Leinster's fault, they are doing great things with producing players. The last few years at U20 level have actually been more even across the provinces with plenty of talented Munster and Ulster players playing key roles in very good Irish U20s sides.

The likes of Tom Stewart, Josh Hodnett, Thomas Ahern, David McCann, Alex Kendellan, Craig Casey, Nathan Doak, Jack Crowley and Ethan McIlroy are all excellent prospects and are making g their impact at URC level now, so we will see what happens in the next couple of years, particularly after 2023.

Luckycharm · 05-11-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123407#Comment_118123407

A couple of points here, I agree fringe provincial players should be playing alot more AIL and it does seem to be happening a bit more this year. When I started playing rugby my club had 9 senior teams plus subs. Problem is these days Rugby is simply competing with alot more distractions like gaming for example, kids on winter nights prefer to play Fifa/COD than running around in the cold. Also in certain parts of the country GAA has really got its act together and is hoovering up the young kids like Hurling in Limerick, there are a couple of GAA clubs in South Dublin that can put out over a 100 teams at a w/end with kids/seniors etc. There are Senior rugby clubs close by that wouldn't have 10% those playing numbers.

ujjjjjjjjj · 05-11-2021 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123952#Comment_118123952

Agree - definitely some young talent coming through, time will tell if they step up but things are deffo glass half full atm in terms of pools of young players coming through across the provinces. Leinster may well be the primary supplier for many of the coming years but so what. If we win the WCup in 2023 I can't imagine anyone giving an Sh**te where the players play.

Leinster are streets ahead of the other provinces atm hence why the Irish team is hugely dominated by Leinster players, it's somewhat inevitable.