Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Luckycharm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123923#Comment_118123923

Osborne came up through Naas RFC, Osborne scrumhalf came from the AIL, Darragh Fanning came from AIL, Leinster used a Lansdowne prop from the AIL last year. Barry Daly came from UCD. There are still a few that don't come through the Academys.

Problem with Jordi was is that he is a bit of a Jack of all trades but master of none. Played a good bit at 8 but probally not quite big enough. Plays a good bit at 7 but probally not quite quick enough. He is very good in each area but quite dominant enough to demand a starting spot. Schmidt used to love him and never let us down, he is a very good player but just not quite as good as the incumbents.

mfceiling

Maybe the reasons that players aren't sent back to play AIL is, that with the amount of injuries nowadays it isn't worth risking numerous players to head off to play AIL when at least 2 or 3 from the 23 will inevitably get injured during a game.

It must be a rare occurrence that all 23 in a provincial scale come through a game unscathed.

Luckycharm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124047#Comment_118124047

I think you are vastly exaggerating the injury alot play in the AIL each w/end, see how many played last weekend from Leinster

Leinster players in AIL action over the weekend

LH Prop

Peter Dooley (26/Birr RFC/Lansdowne) - bench, 1 try.

Jack Boyle(19/St. Michaels/UCD) - bench.

--

Ben Popplewell(U20/Wexford RFC/Lansdowne) - started at 1.

TH Prop

Vakh Abdaladze(25/Coolmine/Clontarf) - started at 3.

--

Mick McCormack(St. St. Marys/St. Marys) - started at 3

Thomas Connolly(DUFC) - started at 3

Rory McGuire (U20/Blackrock College/UCD) - bench.

Hooker

John McKee(21/Campbell/Old Belvedere) - started at 2.

--

Howard Noonan (U20/Greystones RFC-Temple Carrig/Old Wesley) - bench.

Barry Gray (U20/Carlow RFC/Clontarf) - bench.

Lock

Jack Dunne(22/St. Michaels/DUFC) - started at 5.

Brian Deeny(21/Wexford RFC/Clontarf) - started at 5.

--

Mark Morrissey (U20/Blackrock College/UCD) - started at 4.

Backrow

Martin Moloney(22/Athy RFC/Clontarf) - started at 6.

Sean O'Brien(21/Blackrock/UCD) - started at 7.

--

Diarmuid Mangan (U19/Newbridge/UCD) - started at 6, 1 try.

Fionn McWey (U20/Portloaise RFC-Roscrea/Old Belvedere) - bench

Scrumhalf

Cormac Foley(22/St. Gerards/Lansdowne) - bench, 1 try.

--

Conor Duggan(U20/Castleknock/MU Barnhall) - started at 9

Outhalf

Charlie Tector(U20/Kilkenny/Lansdowne) - started at 10, 2 pens, 2 cons.

Centre

Liam Turner(22/Blackrock/DUFC) - irish 7's

--

David Dooley(U19/Tullamore RFC/MU Barnhall) - started at 12

Back Three

Rob Russell(22/St. Michaels/DUFC) - started at 15.

Niall Comerford(21/Blackrock/UCD) - irish 7s

Chris Cosgrave(20/St. Michaels/UCD) - started at 15.

--

Aitzol Arenzana-King (U20/Balbriggan RFC-CUS/Clontarf) - bench

To balance out the provinces you've to make Leinster worse so people aren't going to react positively to that.

At the same time, whilst the makeup of that team for Japan is fair and I don't find much fault with it - it's definitely not an indication of provincial health.

No easy solution to this, certainly finding one that Leinster supporters will stomach will be harder again. And there are other optics at play, Murphy and McGrath went to Ulster and fell out of the picture with Ireland pretty much straight away. The likes of Deegan is going to fight tooth and nail to stay with Leinster rather than take a risk like that.

I think we're likely going to move to some kind of draft in Ireland if this persists, but I fear that might create problems with academies and university places up and down the country. If we can build better player development at provincial levels that would be optimal, and I'm sure it's happening, but so far things are just getting more skewed towards Leinster.

I think if the provinces are stronger then the interpro's are going to be more competitive and the Irish team will benefit, so I'm open to change - but then I've always been one of the more reasonable and less biased commenters on this forum....

....

..

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aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124107#Comment_118124107

That doesn't really answer his question tho.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123243#Comment_118123243

Point of order, Auckland and Canterbury don't play in Super Rugby. They are represented by the Blues and the Crusaders. The Crusaders have 12 titles and the Blues have 4.

Sorry for dragging this off topic. Please go back to arguing about Irish rugby.

Dubinusa

It's a difficult fix! How many lads would actually move province? Even at the academy level. It's rare to see a Munster player leave and go to another province, similar with Ulster! This year, I believe there will be more movement. I think Leinster will see some players move on. The minutes just aren't there.

What do Leinster do with Cian Healy? He's not the player he was and his contract is up. If he's re signed, what do Milne and Dooley do? I see at least 1 of them parting ways. The same for the 2nd row. There's 2 year 3 academy players, Ryan and Deeny. Will they sign a deal to play pre season or AIL? I think both of them could be good players. Dowling made the move and I doubt he had any real choice.

Who knows what the answers are?

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124189#Comment_118124189

It is a tricky fix alright and not an easy one without upsetting loads of folk.

i) Leave as is. (Probably what will happen short term anyway and I think the best short term solution).

ii) Centrally control and or draft players into the 4 provinces. (Leinster won't be happy and you damage the Leinster success story which is daft).

iii) Ask the question which will cause no end of trouble is can Ireland support 4 pro teams -maybe reduce to 3 Leinster plus two others? Good luck with that one.....

iv) Split Leinster into two provincial teams - good luck with that one......and again risks damaging the great Leinster success tory and production line and means supporting 5 pro teams.

v) Ask the question - is there really a problem ???? We have one really strong province playing at the top echelons of Europe producing world class players - what is the problem ??? I have no issue with Leinster continuing along it's current path and picking the best squads they can from the Leinster schools production line - others who ain't deemed good enough can ply their trade elsewhere and make break through to the national side. Is this really a problem ?? I know it's not ideal but it's better than doing anything which damages the one production line working very well, i.e Leinster.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122085#Comment_118122085

so we agree, conan only got into the Irish setup because CJ was gone.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124287#Comment_118124287

Just on this point:

”v) Ask the question - is there really a problem ???? We have one really strong province playing at the top echelons of Europe producing world class players - what is the problem ??? I have no issue with Leinster continuing along it's current path and picking the best squads they can from the Leinster schools production line - others who ain't deemed good enough can ply their trade elsewhere and make break through to the national side. Is this really a problem ?? I know it's not ideal but it's better than doing anything which damages the one production line working very well, i.e Leinster.”

That’s fine, you can have no issue with Leinster continuing along, but it’s pretty clear it’s not optimal for Ireland. And if there wasn’t a problem before, there certainly is now after the re-structuring of the league.

Clegg alluded to it above; Penny, the young player of the year last year, has only had 1 start this season. And that’s at a time when Will Connors is injured.

I just don’t think having all of VdF, Connors, Leavy and Penny is sustainable, given their age profile. There isn’t enough game time to go around. And that’s just one example position.

salmocab

I think this weeks selection has possibly skewed the optics of this, the cards have nearly all fallen blue and it appears worse than it actually is. The four provinces are consistently doing well in the league and along with obviously Leinster, ulster and Munster are hardly mugs in Europe. They definitely need a bit to push them up the last little bit but Munster seem to be starting to produce a bit more from within as are ulster albeit mainly in the backs.

I think the perception has got caught up in other debates ongoing about the Irish squad and annoyed people are looking for issue.

Former Former Former

I think the perception has got caught up in other debates ongoing about the Irish squad and annoyed people are looking for issue.

This is exactly right.

I'm just disappointed Henshaw wasn't fit so even more heads could have exploded.

Poorside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124654#Comment_118124654

Some of the cards fell on the floor and the wrong ones were picked up, Lowe over Balacoune is the big one for me, we know what Lowe can do and has done, will making a tackle against Japan change that? Also, Keenan is our 15, why does he need to play? A backline with Balacoune and Zebo in it would at least look like one that could do a ball of damage and work back.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124654#Comment_118124654

Please, this is fairly condescending. Nothing to see here, no issues at all, what could people possibly be frustrated about? It's completely tone deaf to the state of rugby here outside of Leinster. While Leinster are winning leagues and European cups are the rest of us supposed to console ourselves with the fact that we get to the odd semi final here and there? Are we supposed to reflect that it's only now and again we see Ireland teams made up of 17 Leinster products instead of the usual 12 or 13?

Connacht have won 1 Pro14, other than that Leinster have won every single trophy in Irish Rugby for the past decade. Doing well in the league, that's hilarious. A significant portion of the league is pure dross, finishing in the playoff spots has to be the absolute minimum bar for any half serious outfit.

Munster and Ulster are not mugs in Europe but they are not real contenders either. They are teams that will manage to go on a good run if the draw works well for them and they can avoid injuries to a few key players.

The selection this week is certainly extreme but it's not like it's out of the blue (excuse the pun). This sort of selection has been coming, it's been on the cards for a long time now. It is fairly reflective of the realities of rugby in Ireland right now.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124751#Comment_118124751

It’s not condescending you just really want it to be, the 4 provinces consistently outperform the Welsh ones, an issue is people are comparing their team to Leinster who have been consistently one of the best teams in Europe for a long time and you will always look worse than you are if you do that.

starkid

there's no Leinster agenda. they are just the best province and setup in Irish rugby. However there is a discussion to be had about how damaging it is for Ireland to field mostly Leinster bred players, mostly private schooled at that and two middling project players. Aki is top class and has contributed to Connacht magnificently. I have no isse with projects but they have to be undisputed picks like Aki or Stander. Neither lowe or JGP are that.

Its not ideal.

Leinster are in form but their dominance, lack of diversity and the spreading of talent across to other provinces (both good and bad) doesn't bode well for the future of Irish rugby.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124679#Comment_118124679

Why would more heads have exploded over the inclusion of a Connacht-produced player?

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124593#Comment_118124593

Interesting what you say but I think having province as successful as Leinster is a really good thing for the national team. Talk to any of the players and they will tell you the intensity and quality of training they get at Leinster is exceptional. They simply don't get that elsewhere. I admire the likes of Penny etc who are staking their claim and happy to see can they make that breakthrough in Leinster and to be honest simply being around the training sessions and quality of competition in Leinster will do more for his game than moving elsewhere. Is it any accident that many Leinster players who have moved provinces have gone backwards ? Yes playing time is a problem but ultimately a young player will either be cut by Leinster or make a decision themselves that they probably won't cut the grade at Leinster and perhaps move to another province or elsewhere. Tadhg Beirne a good example, got cut by Leinster, as I understand it and then off to the Scarlets and Munster and many Ireland caps. A long road for him but fair play.

I fully understand it isn't much fun being a Munster or Ulster fan and constantly being beaten by Leinster but focusing on Leinster as a problem that needs sorting to make it more 'optimal' for Ireland to me is utter lunacy. Leinster have proven the system they have works and stacks of trophies prove it does work and this day where the Irish team could simply be the Leinster xv with little or no involvement from other provinces has been coming for sometime. While the other provinces continue to not perform at anything close to Leinster's level it will only continue.

Yes the IRFU should do all it can to try and improve all player development in Ulster, Connacht and Munster but in no way should it be at Leinster's expense , not just to protect Leinster for Leinster's sake but to protect the Irish team as the success that is Leinster is the bedrock which the Irish team is now built on.

Don't break something that is working....in summary......

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124771#Comment_118124771

Oh we outperform the Welsh regions. Sure that's grand then.

Of course we're comparing our teams to Leinster. It is much more relevant to compare ourselves to Leinster than it is to any Welsh team. Leinster are another Irish team, run by the IRFU, the same entity that runs our teams.

Why is it that one Irish team can challenge for European cups and win leagues over and over again while the rest of us have to make do with a good run at it now and again? Why is it that one Irish team can supply pretty much an entire Ireland squad when the rest of us would be delighted to see a half dozen lads in there?

Lsdrugbyfan

Until Munster and Ulster get their development pathways sorted they will always struggle given the requirements on them to have IQ'd players playing for them... they are at least 5 years behind leinster when it comes to that and thats no ones fault but their own.

Dubinusa

I suppose Stockdale being injured probably gets Lowe the opportunity. Depending on how Stockdale is performing. But when healthy, I reckon Stockdale gets the nod! He has bundles of credit, Lowe has little, if any. Farrell et al, can big Lowe up all they want, but if he continues to suck, he will be dropped! If Lowe isn't up for it, he will be dropped.

Zebo is more interesting! His personality is probably not what the IRFU wants. I think they would prefer someone other than Zebo. Just my opinion.

I think the fact Stockdale is out, puts more emphasis on the selection. Next week, Murray will start. Earls may start also. POM will probably get the 7 shirt. If this happens the team looks different.

Casey would have been a great choice for this week! Hopefully he gets into the Pumas match!

bilston

Personally I think we are taking the wrong approach to these matches. I'm not saying we play 7 or 8 fribge players against NZ, but 2 or 3 would have been very educational IMO.

That said once it was decided that the short term goal of beating NZ was the No.1 priority then it was inevitable and actually correct to pick the team against Japan that you are likely to play against NZ.

That said I still reckon there is every chance that both Murray and Henderson will start against NZ.

The Argentina team will be the most interesting selection of the series, will Farrell make 15 changes, or will it be a 50/50 mix of settled players and fringe players, or will it be 2 or 3 changes?

Lsdrugbyfan

If it wasn't for the leinster production line, team ireland would be very very bleak.

Munster/Ulster have produced a handful of top quality players between 24 and 30 and thats just not good enough.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124816#Comment_118124816

Touch bitter are we.

Look Munster and Ulster in particular haven't taken or accepted that really it is the failure of those provincial units to develop more local talent has been the core issue. To keep relevant at the European level they have been happier to bring in Saffers and Leinster players and others to try and compete in Europe and spent less time giving gametime to local lads even if it meant dropping down a level.

Look forget all the provincial rivalry and nonsense for a minute.

If the core role of the provinces is to develop Irish rugby players then that is what they need to do. Leinster has done an exceptional job here in the last decade, less so from the other provinces.

The problem isn't Leinster, it is the failure of the other provinces to mirror Leinster's success. Now don't get me wrong, clear as day as to why Leinster has an advantage be it population, secondary schools etc but also understand that the development work that goes on in Leinster and the focus on close links to the schools and the energy and resources put into the schools cup competitions is exceptional and from Mick Dawson down they deserve plaudits. Not a perfect system but they have got a lot right.

If the other provinces had perhaps played more local lads and put more energy into development maybe one or two or three more Irish players may have come through. Very hard for example when in Munster the push is to try to stay competing at the top table in Europe by bringing in the bag loads of Saffers etc and the same in Ulster.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124679#Comment_118124679

This cuts both ways too. I remember the **** show when Salanoa and Aungier left. That was over, what, 5th choice tighthead’s? There’ll be war if ye lose yer 3rd choice 8.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124842#Comment_118124842

I’d be surprised if Murray does at this point. He’s only had 20 mins or rugby this season. Not sure how much Henderson has played?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124888#Comment_118124888

Nobody said the problem is Leinster.

The lack of player development at other provinces is nothing to do with not playing enough local lads. I would have thought this trope would have been busted by now.

Munster and Ulster have to bring in foreigners because the local talent doesn't exist. Without imports they'd be nothing teams.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124697#Comment_118124697

Keenan is our 15, why does he need to play?

??

This isn't a Wolfhounds game, it's a test match, the first time we've had our first XV together since March and a week before we play the All Blacks. We need some sort of momentum.

Baloucoune did not lose out to Lowe, he lost out to Conway.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124975#Comment_118124975

The Connacht game is the only game Henderson has played this season.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124978#Comment_118124978

Sorry but the truth hurts. Failure has been at provincial level to develop enough players to fill those teams and even when a player had promise they struggle to get into the squad because the Munster and Ulster blazers want their team producing the goods so buy in Saffers etc to stay competitive. We will never know how many players didn't get a chance to improve because of the Cloete's, Kleyn's etc etc.

I firmly believe there hasn't be an acceptance that to produce more local talent you may have to accept a few years in the doldrums scrapping it out at the lower end of the league and in the lower euro Cup. It takes times and effort to change.

The one thing that is clear is that there isn't much point continuing along the same lines but I fear that is exactly what they will do.