Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124810#Comment_118124810

Having a province as successful as Leinster absolutely is a good thing for the national team. But I’m not convinced losing your 4th choice 7 weakens Leinster in any appreciable way.

I think this is pretty spot on tho:

“Yes playing time is a problem but ultimately a young player will either be cut by Leinster or make a decision themselves that they probably won't cut the grade at Leinster and perhaps move to another province”.

I think it’s pretty clear the new format could make this kinda thing more likely. And I hope everyone is as reasonable about it as the above suggests, if it happens.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125019#Comment_118125019

A few years in the doldrums to develop players? You're not serious, right? One team hasn't won anything in 10 years and the other in 15, what planet are you living on? Consider the fact that a significant portion of this was spent in a 12 team league where at least 6 of the teams were a complete shambles and think about it for a second.

This "you just need to try harder" is a lazy trope. It is not down to a lack of effort. The raw materials have not existed. Whatever the plan was, it hasn't worked, and it's not because of foreign imports.

For example, it wouldn't matter if Timoney or Rea or Jones had played every single minute of every single game for Ulster since the day they left school, they are never, ever going to be a Doris or a Conan or a Van der Flier or a Leavy. If you think it's due to a lack of effort you are absolutely delusional.

Ulster and Munster and Connacht will never compete with the money pumped in to Leinster schools. That's fine, the money that flows into the schools is outside of IRFU control so that's that. Whatever is being done to try and make up for this is not working.

Paul Smeenus

How much is it the Leinster rugby system/academy set-up, and how much is it the extremely wealthy schools in the province?

If Leinster private schoolboys were sent to the Ulster/Munster academies after finishing school, would they not develop as much?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125052#Comment_118125052

Sorry, Awec - basically asking the same question.

Poorside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124994#Comment_118124994

Momentum, the most overused phrase for the AI's, we know how good Keenan is, why risk him? If we can't try players against the lowest ranked side we'll meet in the AI's when do we try them? Against England in the 6n?

And to defend Lowe is a lot more than the man himself has ever done.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125052#Comment_118125052

Well maybe a I am delusional but honestly stuffing your team with Saffers and whoever you can poach from Leinster just to desperately cling onto the glory days when Munster for example were a champion team in Europe is the problem and is the root cause of the malaise.

If the decisions had been made to keep and nearly exclusively just push young local players through things could be very different.

I know it's hard to accept but the blame for where things are currently lie entirely with those provinces.

Honestly how can you say the talent isn't there, we just don't know that. It is a crazy statement considering what has happened.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125029#Comment_118125029

Agreed I don't think it does but let it naturally happen (which it will) rather than pushing players out. Look take Scott Penny as an example. He will either push forward in Leinster and become one of the top 2/3 7's or be let go or decide on his own bat to head off to another team.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125125#Comment_118125125

And to defend Lowe is a lot more than the man himself has ever done.

I'm not defending him, I'm pointing out your error. Lowe and Baloucoune play different positions, it was Conway who kept Baloucoune out.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125101#Comment_118125101

It’s a bit of both, Leinster have the most quality input into the academy mainly because of the school’s but also seem to have a setup that allows them thrive. The couple of years of Williams stalled it slightly which suggests to me that you need the head coaches to be doing the right things even with the quality going in to start with.

some players would thrive if they moved elsewhere but it’s difficult to quantify how well that would go and it would be a hard sell to a young lad to get him to turn down his own province to go elsewhere, especially as elsewhere doesn’t seem as likely to bring him success.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125153#Comment_118125153

“If the decisions had been made to keep and nearly exclusively just push young local players through things could be very different.”

“We will never know how many players didn't get a chance to improve because of the Cloete's, Kleyn's etc etc”

This stuff is just bullshit tbh.

Give us names then? Who are these academy prospects that should’ve been given opportunities over the last decade that could’ve made things very different for Munster or Ulster? If they were as good as you are making out, they presumably went on to make a name for themselves elsewhere, so who are they exactly?

The reality is the talent wasn’t there.

Why wasn’t the talent there is an altogether different question, but it’s ridiculous to just pretend the talent was there when it very obviously wasn’t.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125164#Comment_118125164

And how do we differentiate if a player was pushed or decided on his own bat, exactly? How do we know it wasn’t Leinster pushing Jordi, for example?

Credit to Penny if he pushes to top 2/3. It’ll still leave an international calibre 7 as 4th choice.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125356#Comment_118125356

Point is we don't know because of the policies in place. No one knows as it wasn't allowed to happened.

You have to give young players a shot to find out if they are good enough. So in Munsters case they end up signing and importing players which guarantees that youngsters never get the gametime and so it continues. Much the same in Ulster. I can't give you a load of names as they don't exist because that is exactly my point, they were never allowed to develop. Players have to develop and you have to allow them to develop and it takes time and many will fail.

I remember the first time I saw Ross Byrne play and I thought he was absolute pants but he was given more chances and has become a super player but it took time and investment. If we follow the Munster model he wouldn't have had a chance.....

This is rapidly becoming a pointless discussion as there is a total unwillingness to accept that Munster and Ulster are largely to blame for their own problems and that is fundamentally what the issue is.

And if we all agree to accept that Ulster and Munster haven't had any local talent at all who is to blame for that ? Well perhaps it might be Munster and Ulster failing in local development structures ??

Yes perhaps Leinster are no better and have just got lucky with the money being pumped into the Dublin schools. Perhaps but also maybe they have stuck to always trying to play local players and being patient as they develop. Take Ross Byrne.....

We can bat this around forever but sometimes people need to look inwards and stop jealousy looking at Leinster. Leinster and what they have done is a good thing.

How about focusing energy on what can be done to improve rather than getting out the cheque book and buying in another Saffer etc just to try and stay in top flight Euro rugby.

Leinster for several reasons are miles ahead, the other provinces need to step up. Read what POC said today and it basically is exactly that........

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125388#Comment_118125388

We don't and it doesn't matter.......Leinster will look after Leinster. If for example Leo had a quiet word in Jordis ear and said look we may have trouble keeping you in next year then that is a decision being made and that is the way it should work.

Is Scott Penny a proven international, I don't think so yet. Look VDF is world class. Leavy is wing and prayer coming back from an horrendous injury and Connors is injured currently. I can see why Scott is hanging around. He could easily get ahead of Connors and if Leavy gets another bad injury he ends up being 2 behind VDF.

If all 4 are fighting fit end of this season I would imagine either Leinster will push one or one of them will make a call themselves.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125581#Comment_118125581

Gibson park, Lowe, Ala'alatoa (Bent before him) Fardy, Tomane etc

Leinster have bought in plenty of foreigners to fill gaps.

Also signing Seán Cronin and Robbie Henshaw from Connacht.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125655#Comment_118125655

Yes in very limited numbers and you will usually see no more than 2 or 3 ever involved in a game. But it's irrelevant as Leinster have been delivering a huge production line in Irish players so who cares.

The issue is that the other provinces haven't been delivering a solid production line to the point now where you could easily put out the entire Leinster first 23 for Ireland and have trouble arguing against that decision on selection terms.

Point is stop focusing on what Leinster have done and focus on what Munster and Ulster haven't........

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125708#Comment_118125708

You realize that Leinster have generally always had the same amount of NIQ’s as Ulster and Munster?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125581#Comment_118125581

Guff.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125708#Comment_118125708

Why is it irrelevant? You can’t just dismiss that Leinster do sign foreign players all the time just because it doesn’t agree with the little narrative you were painting.

Anyway, rugby isn’t as big in Munster, can’t expect it to compete with Leinster when the GAA is the priority here and rugby is really only confined to a handful of clubs and schools.

Maybe Ulster could produce more, but probably also have the same issues with the GAA.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125791#Comment_118125791

Well guff back to you too if you are going to resort to that....

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125782#Comment_118125782

Repeat, who cares...Leinster are producing stacks of Irish players...problem isn't how many NIQS Leinster have. Ulster and Munster regularly field teams with 7-10 imports be they NIQS or Leinster imports etc etc, they all stop local talent coming through...

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125794#Comment_118125794

What narrative, you mean the factual truth that Leinster is by far the dominant supplier to the Irish team atm ?

Yes sure Leinster may be better placed with the schools and money etc.....but the point I am making is by importing so many players Munster and Ulster ain't exactly helping local talent if and when it is there.....

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125826#Comment_118125826

It’s not stopping local talent coming through. It’s because there is no talent coming through.

there is a big difference.

Do you really think Munster would pay big bucks to Snyman and De Allende if they had cheaper, local options available up to the required standard?

Do you really think Ulster would sign guys who get rejected from the Leinster academy if they had local options available?

awec

On another note, driving tomorrow for the first time ever to a game. Where’s the best place to park? Coming in from the south.

thinking the RDS?

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125856#Comment_118125856

Point is we don't know as they have all these imports in the way.

I know why they are doing it as Munster for example can't countenance finish mid table in the league or even lower and not qualifiying for Europe so they will keep importing rather than throwing caution to the wind and developing talent.

Don't get me wrong I know this won't change but let's not try to pretend what the issue is here.

Look I honestly believe Ulster and Munster have been very poor in developing local players. Leinster hasn't helped in a way because they have been so strong that the provincial rivalry gets in the way and there is an attempt to compete rather than accepting that an entire rebuild in philosophy is required. I get it.....and do I want to see a seachange yes I do........as longterm it is the only fix.

Continuing along the current path of buying in talent and Leinster castoffs is never going to work even if it keeps performances tolerable.

Problems which have been years in the making take time to unwind. Perhaps it can happen. I hope so.

Lsdrugbyfan

Why should Leinster be punished for Ulster and Munsters inability to produce players of sufficient quality?

Leinster invested in their development pathways over a decade ago, Ulster and Munster only started doing similar in the past 5 years.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125919#Comment_118125919

Can you explain what you mean by investing in development pathways?

thomond2006

Are we ever going to get to a point where people start realising 'Munster don't develop talent' is bollocks?

Let's look at the outside recruitment.

Jenkins - A luxury signing certainly, but was brought in to replace CJ.

Osborne & Patterson - Brought in behind two homegrown SHs.

Moore - Brought in behind three homegrown hookers.

At the same time, we promoted 9 players from the academy. Some of those players hadn't even finished the usual three year stint.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125884#Comment_118125884

I always park in the Clayton Ballsbridge...but yes RDS good too....

Sure may as well be in the RDS considering its Leinster v Japan !!

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125927#Comment_118125927

Looks good and encouraging signs , genuinely hope this is the start of a seachange. Feck all use though if they don't give these guys time and gametime. I hope they do.

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125927#Comment_118125927

where is all this talent between 24 and 30?

Munster develop talent now after getting their act together but for a 5 year period they basically didn't, which is reflected in their current representation in the irish squad.

Thankfully that's changing, how long will it take for this talent to reach the ireland squad? A lot of that comes down to JVG selecting the players.