Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143731#Comment_118143731

Off the bench against Scotland in the 6Ns at Murrayfield. May have been 2019?

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143780#Comment_118143780

Was that the game Sexton got injured and Carbery came on early? Even in that match, we scored twice with Sexton on the pitch in 20 miss or whatever including him putting Stockdale away, and only once with Carbery on in the remaining 60 or so.

Moving to Munster has been a disaster. The style of play, the substandard coaching, it just hasn't worked.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143780#Comment_118143780

It was 2019, Sexton went off early. It was a good performance

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143804#Comment_118143804

I think to be fair Carbery made a big break and then gave a great pass for a try for someone...possibly Earls...would need to look it up to be sure it was Earls though. From memory that potentially sealed the win.

Edit - Just watched brief highlights of it on YouTube. It was Earls that he set up, but he also threw an intercept to Finn Russell which led to a Scottish try. He outrusselled Russell on the day.

Stockdale's try was a cracker. Typical Schmidt move.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143731#Comment_118143731

2019 6 Nations, for me, when he came on for an injured Sexton in the first half vs Scotland and was good. (It was off the back of his best spell for Munster, and he bounced back well after throwing an early intercept). (Edit: too slow writing this, others got there before me).

Between then and his return in February this year, he only started 3 games for Munster and 1 game for Ireland, and even they were sporadic:

• 30th Mar 2019 vs Edinburgh (went off injured)
• 18th May 2019 vs Leinster in SF
• 10th Aug 2019 vs Italy (went off injured)
• 3rd Jan 2020 vs Ulster

He has deserved a bit of patience, but he needs to start repaying that too, and pretty soon even at Provincial level, let alone Ireland.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143853#Comment_118143853

I think the onus is really on Munster to persevere with him, and suddenly things might just click. Maybe he just needs to get to Christmas, stay for and regain his confidence and then perhaps in the new year he will kick on. The problem for Munster is that they have Ben Healy desperate for games and Jack Crowley deserving of chances too.

I wonder how things would have panned out if he had moved north instead of south west when he had the chance. I would say this as an Ulster fan but in theory Ulster's style probably would have suited him a bit more to how Munster play...traditionally anyway. But at the time Ulster were a shambles so the decision probably wasn't that hard for him.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143804#Comment_118143804

In his first season at Munster, he played more games at 10 by January than he did in the previous 2 years at Leinster. He had a really good spell of form over that Winter. It was clearly working up to that point, and that’s when he started having his injury issues that kept him out for the guts of 2 years. You can’t pin that on Munster.

Also the style of play has clearly been changing since the start of last season. Some like to heavily criticise the coaching ticket, but ultimately they’re just falling short against the elite of Europe. We’re always hearing how the Leinster production line is the envy of every club in the world. That’s the context of what they’re up against domestically; it doesn’t automatically follow that the coaching is substandard.

And equally, 2 really young, really promising 10’s have come thru in the last year. They’re outperforming Carbery this season. So is the coaching working for them but not Carbery?

It just reads like you want to blame Munster and relieve Carbery of any fault, when that doesn’t stack up to scrutiny.

Podge_irl

Carbery's performance of late is just further evidence for why "just pick one of the young guys and play him instead of Sexton" is a terrible plan.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143876#Comment_118143876

It’s an interesting one; following the AI’s Munster have 2 games in SA, before the CC games. Carbery will have been playing in the AI’s while Healy and Crowley have been playing against each other in the AIL, so I think they’re likely to persevere with him by default in the short-term. But there might be a small window of opportunity for a change before the CC games… (Personally looking forward to seeing Ben Healy’s range at altitude!)

On form tho, I think it’s probably fair to say he’s been Munster’s 3rd best 10 this season.

(And I have a suspicion that, in the medium-term, Crowley will force his way into Munster’s starting 10 shirt).

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143910#Comment_118143910

I'd say it more evidence why picking a player who's been bang out of form for 8 months is a terrible plan. Carbery is 26 now so he's not a kid anymore.

I love Carbery and think he's a cracking player on his day. But we haven't had one of his "days" in a long time.

Farrell is banking massively on either Carbery finding form or Harry Byrne staying injury free.

Really looking forward to the Argentina game to see how they go.

Carty would absolutely thrive in the system we're playing now

pickarooney

I don't think it would have mattered where he went given how little he's played since. There's now a backlog of impatient OHs ready to take the very limited chances afforded by the URC schedule so he really may not have much time to lay down a definitive marker. He needs a huge game soon.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143909#Comment_118143909

And equally, 2 really young, really promising 10’s have come thru in the last year. They’re outperforming Carbery this season. So is the coaching working for them but not Carbery?

Is that really true?

Like, Healy looked great against Scarlets but so did every other Munster player, because Scarlets were absolutely f**king dire. And that's the sum total of his form this year.

Crowley wasn't terrible against Ospreys but again, that's extent of his contribution this season.

While Carbery isn't setting the world on fire, I think we're overstating the threat to his provincial jersey.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143949#Comment_118143949

People seem to want Farrell to pick a replacement for Sexton and "back him". The problem with that is that none of them are displaying anything to demand selection, so it would be a case of picking one and hoping for the best. Carbery had a decent bit of form and experience behind him when he was selected as the obvious backup and it has not worked out at all.

Picking any of the available options now would be a crapshoot cause none of them are demanding the jersey.

Carty would thrive or be a total disaster from game to game. It is completely clear by now that he simply has not an iota of consistency to his game.

Dubinusa

It's possible that Farrell is betting on Carberry and HB to make the grade. Maybe, he's going to stick with both of them, hoping that they can step up. I don't see any way RB gets another chance! Burns is probably out of the picture too. Unless there's a raft of injuries. Carty is just up and down. Probably not going to be picked unless there's nobody left standing.

Healy really needs to get ahead of Carberry at Munster. I can't see that happening very soon. Munster will most likely stick with JC for Europe.

Leinster is worth watching to see if the give HB the bench for the Euros. If RB is ahead of HB at Leinster...?

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144344#Comment_118144344

Can't see how HB would be picked ahead of RB for Leinster as things stand. Have lost count if the times RB has come on early or started a euro game and guided Leinster through it. HB looks very talented but he still hasn't really done anything and he gets injured a lot. But we'll see in Dec I suppose.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144235#Comment_118144235

Healy was also playing well last year. He has carried that form into this year and even improved.

Crowley was good against Ospreys, and that was playing in a team who were terrible. I wouldn't describe it as form obviously but it was a very promising performance. To come in for your first appearance in a team playing terrible and look good is impressive.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144235#Comment_118144235

The extent to which I said there’s a threat to his provincial jersey was by saying “there might be a small window of opportunity”, while still acknowledging he’s likely to start the Champions Cup games. Is that really overstating it?

But Healy and Crowley both have 1 start each and, imo, both of those performances were better than what we’ve seen from Carbery this season. Healy’s was very good, in what was an excellent team performance. Crowley’s was good, in what was a dire team performance, but he was excellent defensively. (Scarlets admittedly were dire, but nobody was suggesting they would be before the game, similar to Ireland Japan).

The next run of fixtures is huge for Carbery, imo. Munster have 2 games in SA, 2 CC games, 3 interpro’s and 2 more CC games. Carbery won’t start them all. He needs to start stringing some performances together.

But the bigger point I was making to the OP was that, while Joey hasn’t hit the heights we all hoped for him when he first came on the scene, trying to pin it all on Munster is ridiculous.

Up until the January of his first season (2018/19), things were going well. He had a really good spell, especially of about 5 games over the Winter interpro’s and CC games where he was playing well and didn’t miss a kick in around 20-odd attempts. He got 2 Man of the Match awards.

Between then, Jan 2019 and the end of February this year (over 25 months), he played a total of 211 minutes for Munster. That’s the context of his return since February. So saying “Moving to Munster has been a disaster. The style of play, the substandard coaching, it just hasn't worked.” isn’t telling a fraction of the story.

connachta

I leave it there.

The disaster of the current situation has a name

Not saying by any mean he should be called back, but on a pure rugby level (see London Irish season), the natural missing Sexton successor for 2023 was Paddy Jackson

The coach (which as a Connacht fan I'm not totally fond of) is not the only responsible for the specific issue...

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144655#Comment_118144655

Who is this test class out half that the coach is holding back??

Farrell has given exactly 33% of available time to other outhalves who are not johnny sexton. for a guy whos job is on the line, thats pretty generous in my opinion, especially looking at the fact that none of those pretenders have yet looked anywhere near being capable test level players.. nevermind ousting Johnny. Carbery is teh only one who has shown that has teh skills, but his form is off a cliff and needs a big confidence booster (thus hes in the squad and getting minutes). of the younger options for the future, Harry Byrne looks to have the best skill set (and thus hes also in the squad, learning). What more can farrell do??

so unless Farrell is actively keeping some unknown great out half locked in a room somewhere and refusing to let him play, its very difficult to lay the blame for the "no test level 10 apparent behind sexton" at farrells feet.

Farrell isnt responsible for carberys loss of form, or jacksons exile, or Ross Byrnes low ceiling, or Billy Burns limits, or Cartys inconsistency, or Healy / H Byrne / Crowleys lack of big game experience.

TRC10

The fact that both Crowley and Healy are getting regular competitive games in the AIL is great for their development.

People need to stop bringing up Jackson. He's out of the picture. He may as well not be Irish. He's never playing for Ireland.

Healy I like but he strikes me as more of a steady kicking out half in the Ross Byrne mould. Good range of passing but doesn't challenge the gainline much. I'm not sure he's the answer. Crowley on the other hand...

I think we could see a young 10 move to Connacht next season if Carty leaves.

connachta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118144731#Comment_118144731

I meant Jackson was and would probably have started RWC 2023, and coach undergoes the hole he left.

No more than that

KaneToad

Carbery is a great player. He looked better when at Leinster though. Understandably so. The other players & the setup was superior to Munster.

If Munster kick on this season the rising tide will lift all boats.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145101#Comment_118145101

Most of Carberry’s good performances for Leinster came at 15 though, not 10.

I see the IRFU’s Instagram account choose to use a picture of Carberry making a tackle in training. I Wonder was that just to prove he still knows how.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143825#Comment_118143825

Yeah that was it. I personally think his performance was fairly overstated that day and if you take out the break and pass (I know that's not entirely fair but it's also probably not something you're basing your OH selection on) then he played similarly to a lot of his other games, when he doesn't have time and space he just doesn't create much. I hope I'm not misremembering but pretty sure I was at that game so wasn't following social media or forums that day, myself and the people I was with were pretty surprised by the reaction to it.

Agree on the point made above, by far his best performances for Leinster were at 15.

Also, on a totally separate point, thought our performance was actually quite un-Irish at the weekend as we played for the full 80 and never took the foot off the gas. Irish sides in those circumstances, be it a province or the national team nearly always get comfortable and concede late tries. Very good to see that didn't happen.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145194#Comment_118145194

"Agree on the point made above, by far his best performances for Leinster were at 15."

On the one hand you acknowledge that by far his best performances for Leinster came at 15, but on the other you want to blame Munster for his performances at 10. Do you see the issue there?

That's without even mentioning 1) the good start to his Munster career and 2) the massive injury issues he's had.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143646#Comment_118143646

The alternatives to Sexton have been measured and quartered to Farrell's liking. I really don't think we will need hindsight here: 36 year old v 26 year of age for Nov is adverse to succession planning.

That's the disconnect this Nov. Farrell knows Carbery is the No.1 alternative at 10. He's fit. Start him.

The younger alternatives to Carbery - Harry Byrne, Ben Healy or even Jack Crowley will not be given a start until Nov 22' at best, if at all.

Podge_irl

Farrell knows Carbery is the No.1 alternative at 10

I think that is far from clear

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145722#Comment_118145722

Not sure how anyone, including Farrell, knows Carbery is the number 1 replacement. Looking across the options at 10 in Ireland I think we can make a safe bet Carty, Burns and R Byrne are now out of the picture. I have a feeling that Farrell might be hoping that H Byrne gets a run of games and potential could be the answer, or one of the guys in Munster.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145682#Comment_118145682

Yep.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145752#Comment_118145752

It appear to be pretty clear to Farrell e.g. Nov squad selection.

I would think its clear Burns is gone. Carty (see Cooney). If Sexton goes down are you thinking that Byrne is coming back in ahead of Carbery?