Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145960#Comment_118145960

You do see the issue. Good, we got there in the end. 👍

molloyjh

Somebody is going to have to explain to me how players who aren’t making the grade at provincial level are somehow going to magically make the grade at Test level by getting a few Test caps.

If getting caps made them better, would they not have shown that development to make the grade to provincial level already? If getting provincial caps hasn’t made them good enough at provincial level, then how will fewer Test caps not only bridge that gap at provincial level, but also go beyond that to make them Test players? There’s a massive, glaring hole in that logic from what I can see.

Clegg

Wouldn't say that all of Carberys best performances came at 15. He had a stormer against Castres when he played at 10 and that's when I think a lot of people started noticing his huge potential.

He played more at 15 when Rob Kearney was injured and excelled there as well. He's just a naturally talented footballer who could have excelled at either position. Unfortunately I don't think he'll ever make it now. Missed too much time through injury. And also there's the fact that Munster just don't have the coaching necessary to get the best out of him. They waste their backs.

dregin

Couple of single tickets up on ticketmaster now

https://www.ticketmaster.ie/autumn-nations-series-ireland-v-new-zealand-dublin-13-11-2021/event/18005B4DE0F772A4

FoFo1254122

The most important selections coming soon for Farrell is 10 and captain

whoever chosen as incumbents will be hard to move with the World Cup so near

So for captain James Ryan is for many their favourite - this will not work as Ryan is not even guaranteed a start, for me furlong should be the irish captain with Beirne vice captain

as for 10 the only real options are carberry and carty, the harsh reality is Harry Byrne and Frawley need sexton out of the Leinster equation if they want to make the Irish team

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146174#Comment_118146174

When has Ryan not been picked when fit? Until that happens, it’s hard to say he’s not guaranteed selection.

TRC10

It won't happen, but I genuinely think Hugo Keenan with his skillset could be be a pretty decent 10 if given a chance.

I think he's a brilliant footballer and his distribution is as good as any 10, see his catch and pass of his left to put Conway away and he's been playing as first receiver more and more for Leinster and Ireland. He also showed his vision with a great 50:22. I know there's a lot more to being a 10 than that. I think he was the out half for the 7s team, which probably means very little.

We saw Furbank slot in at 10 for England and do a pretty good job, albeit he'd played there a few times for Northampton and it was Tonga. Argentina did it with Carreras v NZ, a fullback who'd never played 10. Samoa stuck Nanai-Williams at 10 a few years back IIRC. And Stephen Larkham was a converted fullback. As was Rhys Priestland.

Call me a lunatic.

Lsdrugbyfan

some non-leinster fans seem to be insisting that James Ryan isn't actually any good. Odd.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146329#Comment_118146329

Pot

Kettle

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146298#Comment_118146298

Lunatic

😂

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118145992#Comment_118145992

Excellently put.

I hate seeing posters say "he deserves a run of games to show what he can do" - no, he doesn't.

Plenty of guys get called up to the Ireland squad. Some of them get a game. Some of them stay in the team, some of them remain in the wider squad, others are dropped. That's the only way to pick a national team.

You'd need 20 tests a year to give everyone a run.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146410#Comment_118146410

I feel like some posters are deliberately missing the point being made. Sure, gametime might not make our back ups turn into significantly better players. But we absolutely cannot go into another world cup where our back ups (who will likely play significant role, either in place of Sexton or rotating with him) have not accumulated enough International experience. Maybe we don't need to throw them in now, but it has to happen at some point and there aren't going to be a huge number of meaningful games between now and the world cup for it to happen.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146073#Comment_118146073

He's had excellent games for Munster at 10 as well; the Gloucester game in particular comes to mind.

You're focusing on his injury (completely fairly) and the Munster coaching here. The 2 younger, more inexperienced 10's are performing better than him. Whatever you say about the coaching, it's certainly good enough for him to be performing better than currently he is. At some point it has to come back to Carbery not delivering what he's capable of, rather than the coaches.

AbusesToilets

We wouldn't be having this consternation if Farrell would select Carty, who is currently the only other OH playing with any sort of form. It's patently ridiculous to tar him because of "inconsistencies" and bring Carbery and Bryne.

If the criteria for succession is based on who is demanding selection, how can you ignore the one player who has any level of form and ability? Carty has issues with his game, but he's a much better option to lead us to victory currently than any of the others.

Luckycharm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146298#Comment_118146298

Completely different positions at fullback you just have so much more time to make your decision ball in hand. At outhalf you just don't have the same time, even look at Frawley when playing 10 instead of 12. He gave away a few intercepts and got quite a few kicks blocked when playing 10.

Liam Turner is prop in the scrums in 7s which is about as relevant as outhalf at 7s v 15s 😂

Luckycharm

This is one of the issues with Carberry when he was fullback he could probe the line to look for space as he had time. You simply don't get that time at outhalf. I think he tries to take too much out of the ball which tends to lead to him running up his own arse. Also it is very obvious when he is going to pass as he rarely squares up his shoulders which commits the defenders and stop them drifting.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146490#Comment_118146490

I don’t think we are missing that point tbh. I just think some overestimate the game time thing in a big way. If a player is going to be good enough then they will be good enough at a lower level. At that point the game time at Test level becomes important. These players are good enough but need to get used to the speed of the game at international level. It’s a natural progression.

But if a player hasn’t stepped up at lower levels I honestly can’t tell what good Test game time does for them. They’ll be out of their depth entirely and will they even be able to get used to the speed of Test matches when they are already struggling at lower levels? Surely putting someone in over their heads just damages their confidence and that’s about it?

If players aren’t demanding selection, which the other 10s are not, then you have to build them up rather than drop them into the deep end. I’d like to think that’s what they are trying to do now. Joey for example looks very short on confidence at the moment. He needs to rebuild his form and confidence at Munster before we can look to have him starting many games for Ireland. Harry Byrne needs a run of games to actually demonstrate whether his potential (seen so far at URC level only) can translate into more than that. Both of these guys are most likely better served at the moment getting a run of games at their province before being asked to step up to Test level. Mainly because the elements of their game that need work are on a more basic level than just getting used to the pure speed of Test rugby.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146490#Comment_118146490

I think some posters are missing the point that the problem in the previous 2 world cups most definitely was not that the backups had not had enough game time so I don't know why its phrased as doing the same bad thing again.

Luckycharm

Since 2016 Sexton has 6 test starts against the ALL Blacks his record is 3 wins 1 draw and 2 losses. Doubt many/any outhalfs have a better record than that against the All Blacks in last 5 years.

Brief_Lives

2 wins

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146812#Comment_118146812

3 - 2 with Ireland and 1 with the Lions.

Luckycharm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146812#Comment_118146812

1 win and 1 draw with lions, he didn't start the first test

Dubinusa

Would Munster bench Carberry? Would he sit behind Healy? That's the issue for Healy. I think Healy has to bide his time and impress at every opportunity. It's different for JC, imo! I think Carberry as an international player has a huge advantage. The potential, the international caps etc. I believe Carberry will have to really be poor for Healy to be the starting 10. With JC, there's the temptation to play him as to play himself into some kind of form. But, if he doesn't start making strides.... Healy himself, may be looking over his shoulder. Crowley like HB, has potential and could bypass both of them. I suppose Carberry is worth staying with. But, there's the possibility that he does not hit the heights expected and Munster suffer.

Carberry is in a pressure oven, imo. He must be aware that other options are looking very good. If he doesn't get his play on track, he should be benched. I think Healy is too good an option not to be given a run. Munster obviously want silverware and will select the lad who gives them the best chance. The upcoming months will be interesting indeed. Not just for Munster, but Leinster also. Is HB now ahead of RB? HB has not played meaningful games yet. Which makes me believe that he will get into the European games. Farrell will want to have a look at him in pressure matches!

The disappointing thing for me is that RB: Burns , Carty have probably reached their ceiling. I think Farrell is happy to move on from them and hope that Carberry and HB can make strides. That could be shortsighted. But, time will tell.

Ciaran-Irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146704#Comment_118146704

I couldn't agree more with this. I think there's two cliched beliefs at play.

1. The first is, 'you can only get better with game time" and it's complete horseshit. I remember a page in Bernard Jackman's autobiography (no, I can't for the life of me explain why I read that) where he talks about how mad in the head Flannery was that he could stand in a spot for hours just throwing the ball at a target again and again to practice lineout throwing. He was saying that you have to be slightly off your rocker to be capable of such monotony. Then, a few pages later, he was saying how hard done he was to not get more caps. Players don't like to admit it, but any coach would tell you - most players need endless training and repetition on certain skills.

2. The second cliche is, "we have to see what they're capable of at this level". What people mean is, we the fans want to see what they're capable of, because we don't trust the coach. You see, the coach sees them day in day out. They know if they're carrying an injury, or if they're low on confidence, or if they're making a mess of certain plays, or if there is some skill that is miles of the right level etc. The couch sees all of that and makes a call that a player is or isn't ready. However, the fans don't see all that and want to know, so they think the only solution is to give them starts.

TRC10

Any sign of a team leak?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147464#Comment_118147464

The qualification here is that the IRFU/Ireland coach has tipped the scales and influenced club selection in the past. At least there was plenty of talk about this when Joe fancied Carbery as an out half and he was being selected at 15 by Leinster. If Farrell wants to see more of any of the young players at 10 for any of the provinces then I'm sure requests are taken seriously by provincial coaches.

And yes practice makes perfect for skills and no-one needs to be playing at a high level without having the required skill level but players do improve with game time, there's no question about that. You simply can't match the levels of pressure and speed and the stakes in practice that you get in actual matches. That's why veteran players may lose speed and even power yet remain superior players because of their experience.

theVersatile

Ireland (possible): Keenan; Conway, Ringrose, Aki, Lowe; Sexton, Gibson-Park; Porter, Kelleher, Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Doris, van der Flier, Conan. Replacements: Sheahan or Herring, Healy or Kilcoyne, Bealham or Healy, Beirne, O’Mahony, Murray, Carbery, Earls.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149292#Comment_118149292

So, same 23 and Henderson to swap with Beirne, is this from Kinsella or Thornley or someone else? Or just your own guess?

Oh, and some undecided decisions for the front row bench. Maybe Herring, maybe Kilcoyne, I don’t have a preference either way really. I can’t see Healy as a tight-head over Bealham though, not against New Zealand.

Thornley’s article here. (Subscription)

Interested Observer

It's the Irish Times.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149043#Comment_118149043

Strange to say that Joe influenced leinster to play joey at 10 when he played most of his last games at 15, and Joe was instrumental in encouraging joeys move to munster to play at 10.

His "influence" on leinster as Ireland had coach must have been pretty poor