Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10 · 23-11-2021 5:01am

I'm a bit disappointed that once again on Sunday, we could only manage to score with our forwards (our backs scored the fewest tries in the 6N). I wanted to see us have a bit more composure and spread the ball more. I was buzzing to see Baloucoune start but he hardly touched the ball.

I was hoping to see us build on what we saw v Japan, but we reverted to type a little bit. I'm not sure if that was down to the halfbacks or something else. It was enough to beat a poor enough Argentina, but it won't be enough to beat England or France.

We saw the English and French backs carve open the two best teams in the world, yet we could only score pick and jams and rolling mauls against a terrible Argentina, which is a little bit concerning. Sunday was an ok performance but it seemed like more of a throwback to the Schmidt era than what we saw the last two weeks.

Hopefully it's just a blip as players are still becoming familiar with the new style.

Blue4u · 23-11-2021 7:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208284#Comment_118208284

Henshaw has played 12 for Ireland and Leinster since he moved from Connacht. Winning 6 nations and Champions Cup playing in that position. Would that not suggest he is a 12 who can play 13.

irelandrover · 23-11-2021 7:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209191#Comment_118209191

To me that suggests that the best use of Ringrose and Henshaw is with Ringrose at 13. It doesn't suggest that Henshaw's best position is at 12.

I think the best performances we've seen from Henshaw have been when he has played 13. The best performances we've seen from Ireland is with Aki at 12 and Henshaw at 13. The best performance we've seen from an individual player has been Ringrose against NZ. Im just happy that i dont have to pick the team as i dont have a clue which out of the 3 id pick to start.

aloooof · 23-11-2021 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209133#Comment_118209133

It's probably a combination of a number of things including the half-backs, the centre's (Henshaw looked a bit rusty) and the frequency that Argentina spoiled and infringed at the ruck. I'm not too concerned considering what we saw in the England, Japan and NZ games.

aloooof · 23-11-2021 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209195#Comment_118209195

This would be my take as well and agree entirely with that last sentence; I think it's becoming the most difficult unit to pick, have no idea which 2 of the 3 I'd go for.

pickarooney · 23-11-2021 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205685#Comment_118205685

The article on balls.ie says that but shows the actual list with a grand total of two Irish players, Furlong and Sexton.

Edit: D'oh, teh screenshot was cut off and what I actually saw was half of his team and half of someone else's.

stephen_n · 23-11-2021 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207934#Comment_118207934

How often has Aki started ahead of a fit Henshaw and Ringrose? I can’t remember a time when both were fit and he started ahead of them. Apart from that disastrous attempt for Henshaw to play 15.

aloooof · 23-11-2021 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209650#Comment_118209650

That's as much a function of one of the trio having an injury as anything tho. You could probably phrase that with every combination of the 3 players, and it'd be accurate?

OldRio · 23-11-2021 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209133#Comment_118209133

'revert to type'?

We played three tests. Each with a different style. Each with different patterns of play.

I for one are not dissapointed.

Blue4u · 23-11-2021 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209195#Comment_118209195

In reality when Henshaw & Aki play together they have mentioned a few times they swap between 12 & 13 to confuse the opposition. The number on the back might be 13 on Henshaw but he has slotted into play 12 for some of the game.

Ringrose is and out & out 13

molloyjh · 23-11-2021 1:39pm

Let’s not forget that France only beat Argentina 29-20 and got sucked into one hell of an arm wrestle. We beat Argentina 53-7! Even comparing half time position, it was a very tight 9-7 score line in Paris. Even if Argentina had converted their chances the worst score line we could have expected was 24-20. That shows a very different game.

Sure the French made changes for the NZ game. I think there were 6 personnel and 1 positional change to the starting XV. We made 6 changes to our starting XV for Argentina, but 2 of those were last minute changes due to injury. So the difference is more than comparable.

Our changes at 9 and 10 definitely reduced our capacity to play the same game as the previous 2 weeks. Add to that Henshaw playing his first game since the Lions and that 9-10-12 axis was a big step down on JGP-Sexton-Aki.

Argentina spoiled a lot too. Our first try saw us get in behind them in a similar way to how we did vs NZ and Japan. But Argentina gave away the ruck penalty which killed the free flowing aspect of the attack. So we took advantage of that to get the try.

Argentinas defence was also good enough (and well suited) to put our structures under real pressure.

Yet despite all of the above we still topped all of our stats vs NZ (other than turnovers won which we matched). Our stats don’t show quite the same dominance as over Japan, but we still made more metres and beat more defenders than in the Japan game.

Argentina brought a very different challenge in terms of their defence, but instead of allowing that to stop us we just adapted and found the best way to beat them. And we did so more convincingly than anyone else since South Africa in 2013. Which is similar to the Japan result, where we won more convincingly than anyone else since New Zealand in 2011.

Its been a bloody good 3 weeks and there’s clear room for improvement too. Sure our opponents were at the end of a long season and there are definitely mitigating factors in there, but you can only play what’s in front of you. And we dominated all 3 games in ways that the other 6Ns sides who played the same opposition didn’t. All of whom had similar mitigating factors. It’s still (hopefully) early days in this teams evolution. Let’s hope over the next 12 months we can continue to build on this.

stephen_n · 23-11-2021 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209702#Comment_118209702

Yes that’s true, it’s very rare that all three have been fit. Though anytime it does happen. Henshaw and Ringrose seem to start together. I can’t see any indication from the selections that have occurred. That Aki is clearly first choice at 12.

aloooof · 23-11-2021 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210705#Comment_118210705

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case come 6 Nations time tho. If you look at the calendar year, all our best attacking performances, especially through the backs, have come with Aki at 12. His passing has been brilliant since the England game.

It'll be very harsh on whoever misses out, but it's a good problem to have.

arsebiscuits1 · 23-11-2021 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210705#Comment_118210705

Precisely this.

Aki probably doesn't get enough credit for how durable he has been over the last 4 years. Certainly compared to Ringrose and Henshaw, Aki is made of Adamantium.

Ringrose and Henshaw are rarely both fit at the same time and Aki to his credit usually is there to step up and put in great performances.

Ultimately we have 3 top class centres who all offer a lot of different aspects and all offer good points of difference with each other.

I also don't think "first choice" is an overly linear concept. And it's a much less permanent concept that people seem to be willing to accept.

stephen_n · 23-11-2021 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210732#Comment_118210732

It would probably be remarkable if all three were fit come the 6N. I wouldn’t like to be making the choice as to who starts though if they are. I think on last years form Henshaw might be slightly ahead of the other two. Very little in it though as they’re all in great form now.

RichieRich_89 · 23-11-2021 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209133#Comment_118209133

It would be good to have some genuine centre options with passing instincts. Sure, Henshaw at 12 and Ringrose are fine technically at throwing passes, but they don't have the instincts to pick the killer pass. Maybe Henshaw's a bit better at it in more space at 13 than he is at 12. Aki, to me, looks like the more rounded attacking 12 when compared with Henshaw.

If you're playing a bosh 12, having a 13 with almost outhalf-like ability to draw the defender and pick the right pass at the right time to put somebody into as much space as possible can make a big difference to the attack. O'Driscoll was a master at it. You realise how good he was if you look back at some of his games. Just the understanding of how to draw the defender and pass at the right time was on another level.

Dubinusa · 23-11-2021 4:59pm

Henshaw was clearly the best center last year. Ringrose clearly the year before ! Aki is durable, strong and physical and will do the job in either position. Henshaw for me is a better 12, but he's a high level 13. Ringrose is a 13! He's played 12 sparingly and has done well. I don't think Ringrose is durable enough to play 12 consistently. It's a great headache!

Then there's young Hume who could be thereabouts by the world cup and Osborne. Osborne would be a dark horse, but I think he's got the physicality to play both positions.

AbusesToilets · 23-11-2021 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210558#Comment_118210558

I think the Argentinian test was in many ways the more important performance. We weren't at our best, playing an extremely physical team that was effectively disrupting our game plan. Being able to adapt and combat that successfully is a big step forward. It's an area that we've struggled with previously, and we'll need to demonstrate that resilience against teams like France and SA in the future.

Clegg · 23-11-2021 8:31pm

Every try from the AIs.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1463224565065261057?t=UhGUQraSx1M0X-ukMe2gug&s=09

Blue4u · 24-11-2021 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118212803#Comment_118212803

After last years AI's that was a joy to watch.....

TRC10 · 24-11-2021 7:35pm

Can we all agree that as things stand, Tadhg Beirne should be a nailed on starter come February?

bilston · 24-11-2021 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217547#Comment_118217547

Nope

molloyjh · 24-11-2021 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217547#Comment_118217547

No. I see 3 very strong options at lock where we can start any combination of the 3 depending on the opposition and be totally happy.

AbusesToilets · 24-11-2021 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217547#Comment_118217547

I understand the sentiment, but having anyone as "nailed on" is a bad idea. Competition is what's needed, regardless of pedigree

salmocab · 24-11-2021 8:08pm

It already looks like he’s the one to miss out, wouldn’t say definitely or anything like it but it does look like Henderson and Ryan are the most likely pairing.

TRC10 · 24-11-2021 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217687#Comment_118217687

I mean "nailed on" in the sense that Furlong, Porter and Sexton are nailed on.

bilston · 24-11-2021 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217701#Comment_118217701

But how can he be nailed on?! Furlong and Sexton have no realistic competition? Beirne is one of three world class second rows fighting for two spots.