Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Faugheen

It's very easy to say we need to 'move on from Carbery' but the fact of the matter is he's no better or worse than any of the other alternatives.

It should also put to bed any suggestion that Sexton needs to be phased out of the team because the World Cup is next year. I saw a post about Sexton being a 'step up' on Carbery et al, but in reality he's at the top of the stairs and the rest are halfway up.

Absolutely understand the concerns around his age etc but there's really nothing we can do about it now. As long as he's performing at these levels it's going to stay that way.

He should come back in for the England game and let that be that.

bilston

What a waste of everyone's time.

Doris ran hard as did Van Der Flier. Lowry can be happy with his debut, I think the coaches will be impressed that he passed to Lowe rather than go for the debut hat trick.

Anyway, nothing learnt, but 5 points bagged. We probably should have hit 70+ points with them down to 13, but 5 points and we move on. Hopefully no injuries.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705427#Comment_118705427

Yeah I was impressed with Lowry, showed a lot of maturity for a kid on his debut on the cusp of a hatrick passing it on. I was also glad as Lowe was my fantasy team captain.

Thanks Michael!

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705204#Comment_118705204

He didn't set the world on fire against France but there was absolutely no-one saying Carty should have started today. Carbery did more than enough to hold the jersey.

Serious revisionism here.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705546#Comment_118705546

Oh sorry I don't disagree that he should have started. Fully believed he needed another start. But not really because of some stellar performance in France but because he needed game time. Today was a step back for him really.

Pussyhands

That was one awful performance considering.

After 70 minutes the score was 36-6. That means we scored 5 tries (29 points) in 50 minutes v 13 players. The last 10 minutes we scored 3 tries and 5 minutes of that was v 12 men.

Was enjoying the game up to the red card. Italy were doing well.

Never saw Lowry play before. He's far too small to be an international fullback.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705757#Comment_118705757

You've really never seen Lowry play before? In that case I can't take anything you say about him seriously at all.

phog

Dour game but at the end of the day we got a PD that could stand to us yet.

Joey getting more than his fair share of the blame for all that wasn't right with us today. He's not Sexton but we knew that before today, also, there might not be another Sexton for a while yet. Ireland have been spoilt with Humphreys, ROG and Sexton, we might very well be facing a lean period for a too notch outhalf.

There were errors all over the place today that cost us territory and potential scores but the focus seems to be on one player, that's harsh.

On the card and law re going down to 13 men, World Rugby have to re-visit it, they might not but you can bet your bottom dollar that if that happened to NZ or a top tier country in a meaningful game they'd re-visit it.

TRC10

I don't think it's unfair to say that if we're looking at all the chances Carbery has been given under Farrell as a whole (5 starts, 3 as a sub), he's failed to deliver. We can now add 13 man Italy to a list of USA, Japan and Argentina as teams he's started and failed to impress against. And I don't think it's unreasonable to say we need to look at Carty now. Carbery has had his chances and failed to take them. If Carbery can't look even decent against a tier 2 nation with 13 players, he's never going to make it. This should be a watershed moment.

Henshaw didn't do enough to displace either Aki or Ringrose. I still maintain that he's a way better 13 and you'll never see the best of Henshaw at 12. For me, Aki is without doubt our most effective 12.

Hansen after two good performances didn't impress today.

Hume didn't take his chance.

Doris is such a clumsy rugby player.

VDF, Baird, Beirne, JGP, Lowe, Lowry, Sheehan. Sexton and Casey can be satisfied with their day's work.

I was delighted to see Mikey Lowry get his two tries. For a short guy he's actually pretty strong and packs a punch in contact. His footwork and acceleration is insane. I loved how unselfish he was when he could have had a hat trick but made sure of the try by giving it out to Lowe. Shows real maturity.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705592#Comment_118705592

Yeah that's fair, but it was a step back for lots of people though. I don't think Carty would have been any better tbh. It was just one of those days.

Downlinz

Pointless to conclude anything on selection or gameplan from a game against a glorified tier 2 nation who essentially forfeited the contest after 18 minutes due to mixture of circumstances and poor tackle technique.

Forwards notably switched off after that which led to a sloppy breakdown and a poor platform to attack. Energy from the crowd was low throughout and it must have been difficult for the players to find any sort of motivation out there. It felt like one of those RWC pool games against bottom feeders where the points were secured early and the other 75% of the game is just about running down the clock and avoiding injury.

Nothing can be learned from games like this.

RichieRich_89

Ireland would be fairly well placed in a situation similar to the one that befell Italy if the starting loosehead was Porter and the bench props were Healy and Bealham; a third player who could fill in at tighthead in Porter, a third player who could fill in at loosehead in Bealham, and Cian Healy maybe able to fill in at hooker.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704945#Comment_118704945

Baird needs to bring more grunt and graft to his game. It's like he has the body of a lock and the mind of a centre. All well and good being fast and going through gaps for nice looking line breaks but if he doesn't bring the grunt he will struggle to nail down a spot for himself. I don't think Ryan, Henderson or Beirne will be too concerned for their spot for a while.

I thought the midfield was fairly meh for the whole game to be honest. Ringrose has a tendency to run diagonally or sideways way too much with the blinkers on to what's outside him, but probably exaggerated yesterday by Carbery's mediocre showing. Henshaw definitely didn't have one of his better days.

On Carbery, it is a damning indictment that he was hooked at 55 minutes. Yesterday was his big chance, playing against 13 men for almost the entire game it should have been a free ride for him to show everything he has to offer and he completely squandered it. I would honestly go as far as to not include him against England.

All that said, I think we gave up after they went down to 13 as we knew the game was in the bag and we'd stroll to victory. The final score was disappointing, we should have run up a serious score and not doing it could cost us. It was an experienced enough team not to drop the ball mentally and I suspect there'll be frustration that we did.

At the end of the game when we were 15 vs 12 we had a lineout and tried to pick and go and got held up, there must have been at LEAST a 3 or 4 man overlap on the outside if we'd just passed the ball but we kept trying to smash over.

Absolutely brainless stuff.

errlloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118705546#Comment_118705546

I'll have to go back and find the comments, but I was definitely among a few voices in saying that I thought Carbery was bad against France.

Clegg

Doris is hot **** lads. Just need a bit of tightening up on his decision making as to when the pass is actually on.

https://twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1498232222364622848?t=6oIsyzImQo4aIa_qE8KBrw&s=09

awec

https://twitter.com/italiansrugby/status/1498062431691722759

If there is any consistency at all Baird will be cited for this.

errlloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118707922#Comment_118707922

Doris went off after 54 minutes too.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118707944#Comment_118707944

Not necessarily. From this angle I'm not seeing a high degree of danger. Would need to see a wider angle, haven't a a clue how this wasn't looked at during the game.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708076#Comment_118708076

He shoulders him in the face. It’s pretty much a carbon copy of their red.

Former Former Former

There's a wrap alright but initial contact looks to be shoulder to head. I thought it looked dodgy in real time and that gif isn't doing him any favours.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708081#Comment_118708081

No it's not. Baird is completely upright, it seems from the one angle posted that the Italian player runs into him and there was little force from Baird. Again, would need to see more footage.

Faiva was bent at hips, and clearly propelled himself forward into the tackle with force.

Have you read the head contact process? Shoulder to the head =/= red card.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708108#Comment_118708108

Yes, Baird tackles him upright, shoulder to the head. Direct to the face, in fact.

What do you believe the mitigating factor is that reduces this down from a red? Baird being upright is not a mitigating factor. The Italian player running into him is also not a mitigating factor.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708092#Comment_118708092

The whole area of head injuries has been so woefully inconsistent that WR are starting to look inept.

If I was Italian and Baird gets away with that I would be seriously aggrieved.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708115#Comment_118708115

Level of danger is evaluated before mitigation is considered. A hit from a player who is bent at the hips, on the balls of his feet propelling himself into contact with force is more dangerous than one from a player who is standing upright, flat footed, not moving towards the contact with force.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708147#Comment_118708147

So you do believe that Baird standing upright is the mitigation that reduces this down from a red?

I must admit, I have never heard a referee suggest they are not giving a red card because the tackler was standing upright, do you have any instances of this you know of?

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708158#Comment_118708158

There is no mitigation. I never said there was mitigation. Please read the head contact process.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708170#Comment_118708170

While I'm reading that, can you watch the gif again?

Baird's shoulder clearly comes up into the face of the Italian. This was not an Italian running into a static, soft shoulder making accidental contact. There is absolutely no way you can watch that and then objectively say there was not a high degree of danger, the difference between this and the Italian red is negligible.

They're either both reds, or neither are reds, and to try stand in the middle is to perform mental gymnastics.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118707944#Comment_118707944

Nope, first contact is with the chest. Play on.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708128#Comment_118708128

You can feel aggrieved but ultimately it's the right decision.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118708188#Comment_118708188

I cant believe people are actually trying to compare the two

Baird's first point of contact is the Italian players chest, that immediately takes it out of being a red card, could it be seen as a penalty possibly but its never going to be a red card as there is too much mitigation for it to be so.

The degree of danger isnt really important here, what's important is where the first point of contact is which in this case is the chest.

The Italian player goes high and hits the Irish player in the face with force, clear cut red card.