Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

CMcsporty

Podge_irl wrote: »

Selecting the side is far from the hardest part of a coach's job, its just the most visible to us.

Go on....

ionadnapokot

bilston wrote: »

I thibk most people have said let's see how the 6Ns go before making judgements on Farrell.

But the issue here is that some people, myself included, don't think things have been bad under Farrell.

I thought we had settled on "Conclusions":)

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

me too.... but i will caveat that by saying some things could have been better

the lack of forward cohesion both in set piece and attack were such that many were asking who exactly was responsible for it in camp. There didnt actually seem to be a dedicated lineout coach. With the intro of paulie, whos credentials in that area are unquestioned, then hopefully we will see better outcomes both in attacking mauls and defensive lineouts.

They way we want to play is changing significantly as well.. we are trying to break away from the tight, power play, ruck orientated possession style of Joe to a more fluid expansive style... but clearly that needs a long time to bed in. Rush defences have caused us all kinds of trouble in the last couple of years and i dont see that changing without a realistic second pivot in either 12 or 15 to jack knife around the up and in. Im very interested to see what we try to do this year against England in particular.

I would love to see a second playmaker...its too obvious that everything goes through Sexton. Having Ringrose back will help, but a playmaker at 12 or 15 would be great...I know it was a slip of the pen by Niallof9 but a player like Olding would be handy, even if they were in the 23. Ciaran Frawley is maybe the closest we have at the minute, but not sure if he is close to test quality, Moore at Ulster would be one to watch once he improves defensively as he is a very good footballing centre.

Given the backs coach is Mike Catt who was precisely this type of player I reckon it might be something Ireland are looking for. Remember that Georgia match where we discovered Stockdale can actually pass! Maybe that is something that the management are looking at developing

bilston

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I thought we had settled on "Conclusions":)

hahahah...thats right we did!

sydthebeat

bilston wrote: »

I would love to see a second playmaker...its too obvious that everything goes through Sexton. Having Ringrose back will help, but a playmaker at 12 or 15 would be great...I know it was a slip of the pen by Niallof9 but a player like Olding would be handy, even if they were in the 23. Ciaran Frawley is maybe the closest we have at the minute, but not sure if he is close to test quality, Moore at Ulster would be one to watch once he improves defensively as he is a very good footballing centre.

Given the backs coach is Mike Catt who was precisely this type of player I reckon it might be something Ireland are looking for. Remember that Georgia match where we discovered Stockdale can actually pass! Maybe that is something that the management are looking at developing

Stockdale has all the physical attributes for a 15, but they will need to deconstruct and rebuild his tackle technique though imho, and i think its too late top do that at this stage. Hes a player who would have seriously benefitted from a time on the sevens circuit.

I still have hope that Henshaw can be reconverted back into a baller as he has the passing and kicking range needed as that pivot, but his first action is predominately to bash. im expecting big things from him this year as he has been playing great stuff recently and i think hes a real front liner for a lions call up.

Paul Smeenus

Was posting here the other day about Hendo and Frulong being rusty. Seems I hadn't recognised the half of it..

"Kilcoyne, [who] has played 61 minutes in two comeback matches off the bench since suffering a bad ankle injury in Munster’s first game back against Leinster last August, Rónan Kelleher played his first half hour’s rugby in five weeks last Saturday due to a quad injury.

Furlong, of course, hasn’t played since the defeat by England last February due to back, hamstring and calf issues. Iain Henderson has been out since the Autumn Nations Cup finale against Scotland seven weeks ago with a knee ligament injury. Bundee Aki was sidelined for four weeks with a knee injury before making his return off the bench in Connacht’s defeat by the Ospreys last Sunday.

Ringrose has played just two games since the first rearranged Six Nations game against Italy in October due to two broken jaws. James Lowe hasn’t played in nine weeks and has only just returned to training due to a groin injury. Andrew Conway hasn’t played in six weeks due to personal reasons while Jordan Larmour has just completed two games after being sidelined since early October with a shoulder injury."

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/six-nations-2021-jack-carty-among-the-faces-that-just-don-t-seem-to-fit-1.4467601

Former Former Former

CMcsporty wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that Murray deserved to be starting over Cooney v Scotland in 2020 6N?

If you also implicitly trust Andy Farrell always selects the correct squad and starting side then there is nothing to talk about!

I for one think he is an inexperienced head coach struggling at the hardest part of his job.
Selecting the side.

No, I don't. But I wouldn't have picked Cooney either. He's just not good enough.

Murray is irrelevant here. Cooney is now somewhere between fourth and sixth choice. You can say that Murray didn't deserve to keep his place and that's probably fair but the hard truth is that Cooney couldn't even hold on to second or even third choice. He's just not good enough and saying "oh he hasn't had a fair shake" is just avoiding that truth.

Rhys Ruddock is the same. Stellar performer year in year out for Leinster, but only has a handful of caps for Ireland, mostly in tier 2 games. You hear the same things, he's never been given a go, POM doesn't deserve to be kept, WHAT MORE CAN HE DO, the coaches are so conservative.

But then Doris arrives. Two weeks after joining the squad, he's starting in the 6n and POM is on the bench. He didn't need a run of games, he didn't need a fair shake. He just got picked. Conservatism didn't seem to apply.

That's the difference.

CMcsporty

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, I don't. But I wouldn't have picked Cooney either. He's just not good enough.

Murray is irrelevant here. Cooney is now somewhere between fourth and sixth choice. You can say that Murray didn't deserve to keep his place and that's probably fair but the hard truth is that Cooney couldn't even hold on to second or even third choice. He's just not good enough and saying "oh he hasn't had a fair shake" is just avoiding that truth.

Rhys Ruddock is the same. Stellar performer year in year out for Leinster, but only has a handful of caps for Ireland, mostly in tier 2 games. You hear the same things, he's never been given a go, POM doesn't deserve to be kept, WHAT MORE CAN HE DO, the coaches are so conservative.

But then Doris arrives. Two weeks after joining the squad, he's starting in the 6n and POM is on the bench. He didn't need a run of games, he didn't need a fair shake. He just got picked. Conservatism didn't seem to apply.

That's the difference.

I’m sorry but Murray is very relevant
If your not picking Murray who would you have played v Scotland?

Cooney may not necessarily have been the solution but here we are 12 months on and Murray is going to be starting again.

Podge_irl

CMcsporty wrote: »

Go on....

The actual coaching part tends to be pretty tricky also.

I suspect I could be head coach of Ireland for 6 years and would have picked a pretty similar team to Schmidt most of the time. I guarantee they wouldn't have won anything though!

sydthebeat

Former Former Former wrote: »

....

But then Doris arrives. Two weeks after joining the squad, he's starting in the 6n and POM is on the bench. He didn't need a run of games, he didn't need a fair shake. He just got picked. Conservatism didn't seem to apply.

That's the difference.

and hugo keenan is another perfect example.

last season he was a wet behind the ears Pro14 player who had just 1 european cap.
Performances in those games saw him get 2 caps in last years 6N...

Today hes a lot of peoples first choice 15 by simply being good enough.

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

I’m sorry but Murray is very relevant
If your not picking Murray who would you have played v Scotland?

Cooney may not necessarily have been the solution but here we are 12 months on and Murray is going to be starting again.

Murray is actually playing his best rugby of the last 3 years recently.

None of the pretenders have steeped up enough to dethrone him.

JGP is a great foil for Murray from the bench, but hes struggling to be the undisputed no9 at Leinster. Blade and Marmion are similar at Connacht, and at Ulster Cooney had a particularly shaky restart which saw him dropped for teh Pro14 final

personally im delighted to see casey in there as if his trajectory continues he could be the irish 9 for a long time.

lawrencesummers

If Cooney was good enough he would be playing for Leinster, and if Cooney was playing with Leinster he would be good enough for Ireland.


The truth hurts.

leakyboots

sydthebeat wrote: »

and hugo keenan is another perfect example.

last season he was a wet behind the ears Pro14 player who had just 1 european cap.
Performances in those games saw him get 2 caps in last years 6N...

Today hes a lot of peoples first choice 15 by simply being good enough.

Keenan has been solid but not spectacular for me, this Six Nations will tell a lot if he's the long-term incumbent. He's earned a shot at the jersey

Former Former Former

CMcsporty wrote: »

I’m sorry but Murray is very relevant
If your not picking Murray who would you have played v Scotland?

Cooney may not necessarily have been the solution but here we are 12 months on and Murray is going to be starting again.

I honestly don't care about Cooney, he's just a good example of people giving the coaches unjustified stick rather than admit the truth about certain players. Plenty more examples in the WHAT MORE CAN HE DO bucket.

arsebiscuits1

sydthebeat wrote: »

and hugo keenan is another perfect example.

last season he was a wet behind the ears Pro14 player who had just 1 european cap.
Performances in those games saw him get 2 caps in last years 6N...

Today hes a lot of peoples first choice 15 by simply being good enough.

Yeah but that doesn't factor in people with low emotional intelligence being unable to separate their personal preference for a player somehow being enough to have them be picked over others.

Not only is it enough, it's enough to seemingly lobotomize them so they're incapable of seeing the merits the player ahead of them offers.

CMcsporty

Podge_irl wrote: »

The actual coaching part tends to be pretty tricky also.

I suspect I could be head coach of Ireland for 6 years and would have picked a pretty similar team to Schmidt most of the time. I guarantee they wouldn't have won anything though!

It’s very tricky

But is that what made Warren Gatland a successful head coach?
No chance.
He was an exceptional selector and team builder. And still ruthless.

Joe Schmidt was an exceptional coach and team builder. I still maintain he was not an exceptional selector.

Niallof9

sydthebeat wrote: »

and hugo keenan is another perfect example.

last season he was a wet behind the ears Pro14 player who had just 1 european cap.
Performances in those games saw him get 2 caps in last years 6N...

Today hes a lot of peoples first choice 15 by simply being good enough.

He's in for his real first test though. He's played well, but like alot of things in Ireland we tend to overdo it. The way he's being heralded he's a shoe in for that central contract. He's a very tidy and composed player. Seems to have it, but seeing people's mantra is lets judge on 6 nations, well then lets. He has a long way to go.

Doris was a no brainer, he's been class all through the grades. For every Doris, there's plenty of other players good enough, but who never got a good go depsite being in excellent form. Its far too simplistic to choose your best prospects. Ringrose, Larmour, Stockdale, Doris are no brainers really. And even then it was a conservative approach until their form demanded change (apart from Stockdale).

People like myself, our issues with it all is the inconsistency. Connors was ready with no European games, but Coombes isn't despite having played in Europe. It makes little sense.

Cooney did it all was a match winner and was discarded and by all accounts is off to France. Lets not kid ourselves here. McCloskey, Ruddock, Dillane and others have been regularly misued and mistreated. Despite playing out of their skin.

I mean its all about the inches and maybe Joe's shadow hangs over it all. Too many rough edges in some of the players not selected compared to a Keenan, But then you have Stockdale making loads of errors. Inconsistent policies.

and then by next season, the mantra will be you can't drop Keenan look how experienced he is. This is the way it has been for some time. Its a harder to get out of the team than it is in.

CMcsporty

Former Former Former wrote: »

I honestly don't care about Cooney, he's just a good example of people giving the coaches unjustified stick rather than admit the truth about certain players.

Fine!
I don’t really care about him myself!
I’m more concerned about where we find ourselves with Murray and Sexton.

But go on. Who would you have picked Instead of Murray v Scotland?

arsebiscuits1

CMcsporty wrote: »

It’s very tricky

But is that what made Warren Gatland a successful head coach?
No chance.
He was an exceptional selector and team builder. And still ruthless.

Joe Schmidt was an exceptional coach and team builder. I still maintain he was not an exceptional selector.

That was Luke Fitzgeralds line too. Funny that it came from a person Joe never liked picking for Ireland haha.

I don't really buy into it though. Joe definitely got some selections wrong. But that's playing the law of averages. I don't think any coach will always get their selection correct.

And the only way to ultimately know if you got it right is after the game has taken place...

There's a lot of people who would say Steve Hansen is a poor selector too. It's pretty immaterial

CMcsporty

Immaterial if you are NZ head coach. Yes!

sydthebeat

leakyboots wrote: »

Keenan has been solid but not spectacular for me, this Six Nations will tell a lot if he's the long-term incumbent. He's earned a shot at the jersey

"solid" is exactly what I look for in my full backs first and foremost.

The guy was extremely unlucky not to score a hat trick on this international debut, in a 6 nations game !..... so im not exactly sure what level of spectacular your looking for?

CMcsporty

sydthebeat wrote: »

"solid" is exactly what I look for in my full backs first and foremost.

The guy was extremely unlucky not to score a hat trick on this international debut, in a 6 nations game !..... so im not exactly sure what level of spectacular your looking for?

Stockade!
Another bad selection!!!

Niallof9

A hatrick against Italy. Craig Gilroy saids hello.

Jesus, solid at fullback is not what IReland needs. We need a firing Larmour to make that spot his own. We had a decade of a brilliant fielder and psoitional fullback but who had zero attacking threat past his mid 20's. Keenan has a nice style about him and is on record saying Ben Smith is his idol and he studied him. He is same build and height as BS. Seems quite similar, so here's hoping.

But Keenan has been ok. Which is fine, it was a nothing tournament. This is the test.

A usual overhyping of solid performances and a clear Leinster tinted bias. If he was a Munster lad there would be shrugs of shoulders. I like him but a player like him and the build up around him and say Connors is part of the issue here. Keenan is at the stage where he probably needs to be interchanged with Daly over a few different games to see which one deserves the fair crack. Italy are ****e, the match should be discounted.

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

..... Ringrose, Larmour, Stockdale, Doris are no brainers really. And even then it was a conservative approach until their form demanded change (apart from Stockdale)...

you see, when you make complete BS arguments like that above your whole point falls down

all 4 of those players were got into green shorts as fast as possible.

ringrose had only 14 months before his leinster and ireland debut...

larmour was only 6 months for gods sake

Doris was actually longest between debut and cap simply because of the opposition he was competing with, coupled with leinsters proactive policy of giving youth a chance. He made his leinster debut in april 2018, but only got his shot to nail down the 8 jersey in 2020 when conan got injured for the HC campaign.

arsebiscuits1

sydthebeat wrote: »

"solid" is exactly what I look for in my full backs first and foremost.

The guy was extremely unlucky not to score a hat trick on this international debut, in a 6 nations game !..... so im not exactly sure what level of spectacular your looking for?

Solid is what Irelands most successful ever player built his career around.

Give me solid 8 days a week.

It's why I like Keenan a lot. You know exactly what you're going to get with him. The fact he's rapid and skillful are absolute bonuses

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

People like myself, our issues with it all is the inconsistency. Connors was ready with no European games, but Coombes isn't despite having played in Europe. It makes little sense.

Why does it have to be all or nothing? What you're calling 'inconsistency' is actually closer to evolution of the team.

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

Stockade!
Another bad selection!!!

are you saying stockdale is your example of a spectacular full back??

because if not, ive no idea why youve quoted me to post what you did??

arsebiscuits1

CMcsporty wrote: »

Immaterial if you are NZ head coach. Yes!

Immaterial because this business is results driven.

Schmidt is the most successful rugby coach to ever ply their trade in Ireland

A coach could select Bill from the pub to start for Ireland because sponsors competitions are getting too intrusive.

If Ireland win the game, it doesn't matter haha.

sydthebeat

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

. The fact he's rapid and skillful are absolute bonuses

rapid, skilful, tremendous tackler... and has a killer instinct for the try line.

but the doomsday merchants will still whinge about him for not being "spectacular"

arsebiscuits1

sydthebeat wrote: »

rapid, skilful, tremendous tackler... and has a killer instinct for the try line.

but the doomsday merchants will still whinge about him for not being "spectacular"

One of the best 1 v 1 tacklers in Ireland. Certainly in the backs.

The doomsday merchants are always going to whinge.

I rarely come into this thread much anymore because its just filled with people who'd rather argue with the priest instead of just saying "I do" at their wedding and go 'talk to Joe' because they won the ****ing lotto haha.