Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

OneLungDavy

Fullback (and wing to a lesser extent) has become such a specialist position in the modern game, similar to a tight head where you pick someone who can anchor a scrum first, then work on the rest. At fullback, you pick someone who is reliable first and foremost, that's Keenan right now. He has the perfect attitude to get better, he's come on so much over the last 6 months and gets better every time I see him.

arsebiscuits1

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Fullback (and wing to a lesser extent) has become such a specialist position in the modern game, similar to a tight head where you pick someone who can anchor a scrum first, then work on the rest. At fullback, you pick someone who is reliable first and foremost, that's Keenan right now. He has the perfect attitude to get better, he's come on so much over the last 6 months and gets better every time I see him.

Coachable is a word I've seen used about Keenan.

Not to say his peers are not coachable or stubborn or anything, some players just take on coaching advice much better than others.

Looking at his technique, how he fights to keep his feet and stays in the hunt after being half beaten smacks of a person whose taken on board some excellent coaching direction.

Add to this all his other strengths and it's the makings of a great player.

I can't see him being the 15 resident for the next 10 years however. But to be able to say that about any player after 2 games there is nearsighted anyway

Paul Smeenus

Jesus, is Hugo's whole family on this forum?

I'm not taking a side in the selection debate, I'm just looking forward to seeing him captaining the Lions.

What was it Molloy said about hyperbole...?

arsebiscuits1

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Jesus, is Hugo's whole family on this forum?

I'm not taking a side in the selection debate, I'm just looking forward to seeing him captaining the Lions.

What was it Molloy said about hyperbole...?

Highlighting a players strengths? I'd much rather see that than someone bring up ****ing selections again and putting down players to big up their favoured guys.

Let's take a minute to appreciate the irony of you (even facetiously) mentioning Lions before moaning about hyperbole.

I don't think anyone has said anything unreasonably hyperbolic about him

Paul Smeenus

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Highlighting a players strengths? I'd much rather see that than someone bring up ****ing selections again and putting down players to big up their favoured guys.

Let's take a minute to appreciate the irony of you (even facetiously) mentioning Lions before moaning about hyperbole.

I don't think anyone has said anything unreasonably hyperbolic about him

If I mentioned it facetiously (as I did), there is no irony - it's reinforcing my point with humour. Come on, now.

sydthebeat

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Jesus, is Hugo's whole family on this forum?

I'm not taking a side in the selection debate, I'm just looking forward to seeing him captaining the Lions.

What was it Molloy said about hyperbole...?

Unhelpful Paul..... you're better than that

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

Unhelpful Paul..... you're better than that

Yeah, alright. Hands up. I just think folk are getting very carried away with him, and with the purple prose of one poster after the other, it's hard to read and not say something prickly. Apologies.

sydthebeat

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If I mentioned it facetiously (as I did), there is no irony - it's reinforcing my point with humour. Come on, now.

We're actually arguing the the point that he's NOT spectacular but very solid.

So you need to look elsewhere for the hyperbole

UAEguy2020

I’m lost, who’s the new scape goat? I’ve lost count at this stage.

mfceiling

I believe Cooney was very much overlooked in 2019. He was the stand out Ulster player and was in the Pro 14 team of the year.
Murray was in a very bad run of form and we were all looking here at the weakness in his shoulder and how his passing on that side had dropped considerably and yet every game....maybe he'll turn it around today. Maybe he needs another game to get up to speed. Maybe he needs a run of games to get his mojo back.

As a "slightly biased" supporter you are looking at another 9 who is tearing it up week in week out and doesn't seem to be getting a fair crack at even getting the first 55 - 60 minutes in an Ireland shirt. You'll never get the real measure of how good a player actually is unless he gets meaningful game time. 6 or 7 minutes at the end of a game tells us nothing.

Competition for places is good. Good for the player under pressure because he is looking over his shoulder thinking I need to play well today or I'm looking at the bench next week. POM has really stepped it up in the past year and I'm sure he's aware that there are lads chomping at the bit for his jersey and that motivation has been a huge driver for him to say "come and get it lads".

Paul Smeenus

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I’m lost, who’s the new scape goat? I’ve lost count at this stage.

ROG stayed on a season too long.

ionadnapokot

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Coachable is a word I've seen used about Keenan.

Not to say his peers are not coachable or stubborn or anything, some players just take on coaching advice much better than others.

Looking at his technique, how he fights to keep his feet and stays in the hunt after being half beaten smacks of a person whose taken on board some excellent coaching direction.

Add to this all his other strengths and it's the makings of a great player.

I can't see him being the 15 resident for the next 10 years however. But to be able to say that about any player after 2 games there is nearsighted anyway

Just dont see it. Great like?
I like Keenan and all but he's not a starter in the Irish XV if Larmour, Stockdale, Conway, Lowe, Balaoucoune, Daly would be available.

Ireland & more importantly Leinster should stick with Larmour at FB

He was the starting FB last season had a bad game v Saracens
Moved out to the wing v Dragons
& again v Benetton and got injured

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, I don't. But I wouldn't have picked Cooney either. He's just not good enough.

Murray is irrelevant here. Cooney is now somewhere between fourth and sixth choice. You can say that Murray didn't deserve to keep his place and that's probably fair but the hard truth is that Cooney couldn't even hold on to second or even third choice. He's just not good enough and saying "oh he hasn't had a fair shake" is just avoiding that truth.

Rhys Ruddock is the same. Stellar performer year in year out for Leinster, but only has a handful of caps for Ireland, mostly in tier 2 games. You hear the same things, he's never been given a go, POM doesn't deserve to be kept, WHAT MORE CAN HE DO, the coaches are so conservative.

But then Doris arrives. Two weeks after joining the squad, he's starting in the 6n and POM is on the bench. He didn't need a run of games, he didn't need a fair shake. He just got picked. Conservatism didn't seem to apply.

That's the difference.

How can you say Cooney was playing by the same rules as everyone else, then say Murray is irrelevant?

It is demonstrably true that players are not playing by the same rules. Murray and Sexton were two of the worst Irish players in 2019, they were absolutely hopeless.

Not only did they not lose their spot, they didn't even get subbed. It was a complete farce, they were completely free to play like total drains with absolutely no consequence. It is clear that if you're a favourite of the coach then it doesn't matter if you stink the place out, if you're not a favourite then good luck to you.

All of this happened under the tenure of a coach who had previously complained he had no depth at half back. Guess what, if you insist on playing the first choice every single game, no matter how terrible they are, you are going to have no backup option worth talking about. And then you have the confirmation bias. "Well Murray was rubbish, but Cooney wasn't selected so it's clear Cooney isn't good enough".

Niallof9

sydthebeat wrote: »

you see, when you make complete BS arguments like that above your whole point falls down

all 4 of those players were got into green shorts as fast as possible.

ringrose had only 14 months before his leinster and ireland debut...

larmour was only 6 months for gods sake

Doris was actually longest between debut and cap simply because of the opposition he was competing with, coupled with leinsters proactive policy of giving youth a chance. He made his leinster debut in april 2018, but only got his shot to nail down the 8 jersey in 2020 when conan got injured for the HC campaign.

ringrose had only 14 months before his leinster and ireland debut...

larmour was only 6 months for gods sake

so you admit that there was a period of time. Ringrose missed a full tour that many called for him to go on.

Coombes is good enough to be in the squad. He should be. Lowry, Hume, Baird should be i nthe squad in some capacity imo. they'll be there in 12 months regardless os whats the point in a delay, just like the Ringrose situation. Capped after the tour. Going on the tour would have allowed him even more development and maybe got us over the line.

And Hugo Keenan is getting some amount of hype. Will be interesting to see if he turns into another McFadden - extremely solid but unspectacular, yet is the guy that keeps genuine talents out of the picture. I hope not. Anybody who thinks we need solid, hasn't been paying attention. We're crying out for some x factor and a bit of oomph. Larmour had it but i genuinely fear its been coached out of him.

But it sums up Irish rugby at the moment. An inconsistent mess, where some players just get thrown aside or don't get a shot. Others get the golden ticket and key to lock the door behind them.

Anyway please jebus we do really well. but there will be some fun seeing alot of the usual faces try to explain it away if it goes tits up.

CMcsporty

awec wrote: »

How can you say Cooney was playing by the same rules as everyone else, then say Murray is irrelevant?

It is demonstrably true that players are not playing by the same rules. Murray and Sexton were two of the worst Irish players in 2019, they were absolutely hopeless.

Not only did they not lose their spot, they didn't even get subbed. It was a complete farce, they were completely free to play like total drains with absolutely no consequence. It is clear that if you're a favourite of the coach then it doesn't matter if you stink the place out, if you're not a favourite then good luck to you.

All of this happened under the tenure of a coach who had previously complained he had no depth at half back. Guess what, if you insist on playing the first choice every single game, no matter how terrible they are, you are going to have no backup option worth talking about. And then you have the confirmation bias. "Well Murray was rubbish, but Cooney wasn't selected so it's clear Cooney isn't good enough".

Dont forget they were also hopeless in 2020!
And now for 2021....

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

Dont forget they were also hopeless in 2020!
And now for 2021....

I have hope for Murray

Sexton however I don't

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

We're actually arguing the the point that he's NOT spectacular but very solid.

So you need to look elsewhere for the hyperbole

“rapid, skilful, tremendous tackler... and has a killer instinct for the try line.”
“One of the best 1 v 1 tacklers in Ireland”
“He has the perfect attitude to get better, he's come on so much over the last 6 months and gets better every time I see him.”
“it's the makings of a great player.”

That doesn't sound like anyone is making him out to be "very solid" - that's my point. It sounds like hype. But I'll let it go now, it's not worth the aggravation for any of us.

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

I have hope for Murray

Sexton however I don't

Murray looks like he's turning it round - Sexton doesn't.

Interested Observer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Murray looks like he's turning it round - Sexton doesn't.

His performance against Leinster has been hugely overstated imo. Larmour was really poor under the high ball for sure, but Munster still had very little going in attack beyond trying to bludgeon Leinster, and hammering box kicks sort of falls down if the winger you're hammering them at can catch the ball. Made a few little snipes sure but McGrath was much better at that on the day, was nothing to write home about. I don't really think our halfbacks are fit for purpose anymore, and there are just a host of average enough players behind Sexton. Be delighted to be wrong.

ionadnapokot

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Murray looks like he's turning it round - Sexton doesn't.

Based on the Leinster game?

I watched him closely. He wasnt even the better SH on the day.
His kicking was better. & he attempted 2 breaks from the the ruck. But honestly his passing wasnt up to speed and his explosiveness is gone.

As for Sexton. It's sad really.

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

How can you say Cooney was playing by the same rules as everyone else, then say Murray is irrelevant?

Because you're missing the wood for the trees. Murray vs Cooney is irrelevant when Cooney is actually competing with (and losing out to) multiple other players.

awec wrote: »

It is demonstrably true that players are not playing by the same rules. Murray and Sexton were two of the worst Irish players in 2019, they were absolutely hopeless.

Not only did they not lose their spot, they didn't even get subbed. It was a complete farce, they were completely free to play like total drains with absolutely no consequence. It is clear that if you're a favourite of the coach then it doesn't matter if you stink the place out, if you're not a favourite then good luck to you.

This is always true until it's not. See my example of POM (the favourite) vs Ruddock (the victim) vs Doris (the guy who tears your logic to shreds).

You'll get no argument from me that Murray and Sexton haven't been playing well the last two years.

However, a mediocre player does not become a test-level player simply because we need him to do so.

Paul Smeenus

I just was pleasantly surprised by Murray - it looked like he was more engaged and less glacial than he has been for a while. Thought his box kicking was excellent, and, in fairness, Munster got a very decent return out of it. However much JvG take pot shots in the press, it does seem to me that Munster revert to that in big games, and he was playing to his game plan.

He wasn't amazing. Maybe I just don't have very high expectations of him any more - quite willing to admit it could be that.

arsebiscuits1

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

“rapid, skilful, tremendous tackler... and has a killer instinct for the try line.”
“One of the best 1 v 1 tacklers in Ireland”
“He has the perfect attitude to get better, he's come on so much over the last 6 months and gets better every time I see him.”
“it's the makings of a great player.”

That doesn't sound like anyone is making him out to be "very solid" - that's my point. It sounds like hype. But I'll let it go now, it's not worth the aggravation for any of us.

My point of being the best 1 v 1 tacklers in Ireland, certainly in the backs is not hyperbole though.

This is an accurate representation of his ability. Especially when directly compared to his peers

Niallof9

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

My point of being the best 1 v 1 tacklers in Ireland, certainly in the backs is not hyperbole though.

This is an accurate representation of his ability. Especially when directly compared to his peers

We don't know any of that though at true test level. November was utter dross and he was fairly ok. People are hyping the bejaysus out of him. Perversely so. I mean you can get the Larmour hype with the auld breaks. But he gets crucified at the small details, so much so it seems he's lost some confidence. Yet here with Hugo, we laud spectacular solidness which is an age old story at the best of times. Sums up whats wrong with Irish rugby atm. Yeah its a game of inches and tiny margins, but i think its fair to say watching Ireland play can be painful at times. We're crying out for attacking threat and mean carriers. Yet we have people wanting Larmour shunted to the wing and one of our in form carriers not even in the squad, and the closest player to an SOB both in name and sob hardness, playing for Leinster A.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

I mean you can get the Larmour hype with the auld breaks. But he gets crucified at the small details, so much so it seems he's lost some confidence.

Being poor at catching a high kick is not a small detail. It's one of the core skills of full-back play.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

Being poor at catching a high kick is not a small detail. It's one of the core skills of full-back play.

You know what else is considered a core skill of a fullback? Attacking threat, well at least in most normal rugby countries and definitely in any team in the AIL i've ever played in over the years. I can't believe Kearney has conditioned us so badly. Even his ghost is hanging about.

Here's hoping if fit, Larmour starts at fullback. Keenan might be an able deputy if not. Either way he's not starting over Lowe, Earls or Larmour anyhow.

Seriously its gas how people anoint certain players in Ireland. Keenan has so much to prove. Bagging two tries against Italy...he was crap in the core duties against England and made two errors in the tries iirc.

Massive test for him.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

You know what else is considered a core skill of a fullback? Attacking threat, well at least in most normal rugby countries and definitely in any team in the AIL i've ever played in over the years. I can't believe Kearney has conditioned us so badly. Even his ghost is hanging about.

I never claimed it wasn't. Larmour brings that in spades. But we don't need to pretend it's only "small details" that he gets wrong.

ionadnapokot

Keenan will definitely start at FB!
But he is not the answer in the long term.

It's unfair to sling Larmour back in at FB without having played there in a while.

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

...we laud spectacular solidness .....

:D:D:D:D

Niallof9

ha. look i like Keenan, i'll leave it. Its not about him per se. Like i said there's a touch of Ben Smith about him. Its just that i dont like the waycertain players can become bona fide untouchables while others struggle. McCloskey and Dillane are a perfect example. Cooney is over so i won;t use him. Keenan cements his position if he can get through the tournament with 7/10s for me. If he struggles a bit then we need to reassess and we need to be fair to other players and give them a shout.

But Keenan's story is good too, and would give ammunition to my theory that we are ignoring certain 7's guys. I hope he does well. Its basically i just want a period where we try a few options and see where it lands. It would broaden squad depth as well. Surely Earls is in the end game. Huge pity Baloucoune is injured.