Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

bilston

Full back is the one position where solidity is to be applauded above all other attributes. There's a reason why Girv the Swerve was almost always picked ahead of the George Best of rugby for all those years by EOS.

ionadnapokot

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

My point of being the best 1 v 1 tacklers in Ireland, certainly in the backs is not hyperbole though.

This is an accurate representation of his ability. Especially when directly compared to his peers

Why is everyone using the term “hyperbole”??

I don’t agree with you on Keenan.
“rapid, skilful, tremendous tackler... and has a killer instinct for the try line.”
He’s all the appearances of been average at all of those things in my eyes.

Two people can look at the same player and have totally different takes.
The beauty of sport.

Socrates - Dare to disagree!
He warned that humans sleepwalk through life, happy to simply go along with the crowd.

e.g. Ireland & Sexton when criticised for their woefulness in 2019 was met with this “hyperbole” accusation...& sure aren't they the reigning 6N Champions, beat NZ and world player of the year?

I digress.....I really hope Keenan goes well.
But dont say i didnt warn you:pac:

Niallof9

Keenan also has quiet confidence, which is a very good sign. I mean thats what they say about Doris, his temperament is excellent. Keenan seems to have similar match temperament. Like Larmour is confident, but you can still see nerves.

Also i suppose the idea that he wasn't a star schools player and he ws nearly lost to the system is a good sign of sorts - a healthy system. How many guys do we miss?

sydthebeat

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Why is everyone using the term “hyperbole”??

:

because this is hyperbole:

...Joe Schmidt or Andy Farrell. I believe both of these folks have dragged us to a nothingness.

the set piece and attacking set up aren’t good enough for professional rugby

Chucking the ball into the lineout and hoping for the best isn’t good enough for professional rugby no

They have been injured forever but you place confidence in the names over the reality

AF ... was involved in our worst ever WC

usual overhyping of solid performances and a clear Leinster tinted bias

all example of 'hyperbole' from the last 2 days....

Niallof9

Nothing exaggerated about AF being involved in Japan. And in terms of expectations etc, it was our worst, possibly equalled by 2007 but i would argue we were in a much better place in 2019 only for it to implode. Unfortunately for us two of our coaches were heavily involved in it.

And we are absolute divils for overhyping performances be it either team, or individually, not an exaggeration. Possibly the worst of any nation. Every Lions year you can see it clearly. If the Lions was picked in the morning only Furlong and maybe Ryan and Ringrose would be in the test side. Yet you'd swear all our players are best in World. And the stick we beat them is bigger when they fail to do the details. Look at Larmour. Stockdales facing the same issues.

The rest, yeah i'll give you that.

ClanofLams

Schmidt’s tenure will be remembered very well, that said he made fairly major mistakes in his final year, despite many posters wishing to disregard them. But overall very good work.

Andy Farrell shouldn’t have been appointed when he was. My view is it will in time rank alongside the decision to hand Eddie O’Sullivan a contract before the 2007 World Cup and won’t happen ever again. If you were making an appointment following the World Cup, he wouldn’t have got the job or even been especially high on the shortlist.

I think we are in for a rough six nations too, wouldn’t rule out only beating Italy.

ionadnapokot

sydthebeat wrote: »

because this is hyperbole:







all example of 'hyperbole' from the last 2 days....

Fair enough!
But sure let them off. They're happy!

aloooof

To be fair to al the disagreements, I think FB is possibly the hardest position to pick at the moment. We've had Larmour, Stockdale and Keenan all feature there at different times over the last 2 years and they all bring something different.

If Farrell decides to go the solid route, the obvious choice is Keenan. If he wants to go more attacking, I think I'd favour Stockdale over Larmour. He's got a huge boot and we've seen some brilliant passing from him at FB. Think he'd bring others into the game a lot more than Larmour.

It won't be a decision that's made in isolation tho, obviously. For example, I just don't think we can field a back 3 of Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale. (It could be a laugh tho...)

Podge_irl

ClanofLams wrote: »

Andy Farrell shouldn’t have been appointed when he was. My view is it will in time rank alongside the decision to hand Eddie O’Sullivan a contract before the 2007 World Cup and won’t happen ever again. If you were making an appointment following the World Cup, he wouldn’t have got the job or even been especially high on the shortlist.

If you were making an appointment following the World Cup AF would not have been available as he would have had another job. Even if we had won the world cup.

You don't let any coach run out his notice without bothering to hire a replacement.

theVersatile

FWIW I believe Murray's "poor form" has been heavily exaggerated. Its a bit of the James Ryan thing of "oh he's only performing at 6 or 7 out of 10 instead of 9 out of 10". And great games like the one he had vs Wales in the last Six Nations were quickly thrown under the carpet.

Interested Observer

theVersatile wrote: »

FWIW I believe Murray's "poor form" has been heavily exaggerated. Its a bit of the James Ryan thing of "oh he's only performing at 6 or 7 out of 10 instead of 9 out of 10". And great games like the one he had vs Wales in the last Six Nations were quickly thrown under the carpet.

As in the one back in October 2020? The one Gibson-Park started?

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

Schmidt’s tenure will be remembered very well, that said he made fairly major mistakes in his final year, despite many posters wishing to disregard them. But overall very good work.

Andy Farrell shouldn’t have been appointed when he was. My view is it will in time rank alongside the decision to hand Eddie O’Sullivan a contract before the 2007 World Cup and won’t happen ever again. If you were making an appointment following the World Cup, he wouldn’t have got the job or even been especially high on the shortlist.

I think we are in for a rough six nations too, wouldn’t rule out only beating Italy.

Kidney got a new contract before the 2011 WC!

It's great that McFarland and now Friend have extended their contracts until the end of the 2023 season.
That just leaves Lancaster.

I would hope that all three would be in a position at the provinces to take on the side post 2023 WC.
I can see Friend as the next Head Coach considering Lancaster's past statements.
Friend/Lancaster dream team would be nice!

irelandrover

Interested Observer wrote: »

As in the one back in October 2020? The one Gibson-Park started?

Ireland v Wales on the 8th Feb 2020. Murray started.

Former Former Former

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Kidney got a new contract before the 2011 WC!

But all coaching contracts (national and provincial) now include a 6-month notice period, i.e. the IRFU learned from the EOS situation.

Double-edged sword when someone like Lam or Rassie gets a better offer and bails out, but that's the risk I guess.

Paul Smeenus

aloooof wrote: »

To be fair to al the disagreements, I think FB is possibly the hardest position to pick at the moment. We've had Larmour, Stockdale and Keenan all feature there at different times over the last 2 years and they all bring something different.

If Farrell decides to go the solid route, the obvious choice is Keenan. If he wants to go more attacking, I think I'd favour Stockdale over Larmour. He's got a huge boot and we've seen some brilliant passing from him at FB. Think he'd bring others into the game a lot more than Larmour.

It won't be a decision that's made in isolation tho, obviously. For example, I just don't think we can field a back 3 of Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale. (It could be a laugh tho...)

If he comes back in the same form as before his surgery, I'd take Addison ahead of any of them.

Must love hardship

Interested Observer wrote: »

As in the one back in October 2020? The one Gibson-Park started?

The six nations match v Wales was in Feb. Murray started and Cooney was on the bench.

The October match was the micky mouse cup where Gibson Park managed to jump the queue..

Interested Observer

irelandrover wrote: »

Ireland v Wales on the 8th Feb 2020. Murray started.

Ah right my mistake, the one in October wasn't the 6N was it.

ionadnapokot

Former Former Former wrote: »

But all coaching contracts (national and provincial) now include a 6-month notice period, i.e. the IRFU learned from the EOS situation.

Double-edged sword when someone like Lam or Rassie gets a better offer and bails out, but that's the risk I guess.

Not for Kidney. He re-signed 3 months before 2011 RWC

As i said it's important that Friend, McFarland & hopefully Lancaster will be in place at Provinces until the end of 2022/23 season.
Their better offer will be the Ireland job post RWC in Oct 2023.

ClanofLams

Podge_irl wrote: »

If you were making an appointment following the World Cup AF would not have been available as he would have had another job. Even if we had won the world cup.

You don't let any coach run out his notice without bothering to hire a replacement.

Maybe, maybe not. He would have known that if the World Cup went well he would have been a prime contender for top job.

NZ only appointed new head coach following the World Cup. Obviously it’s more challenging for Ireland as 6N starts in February but worst case scenario you have to appoint interim head coach for 6N. Would have been far preferable than appointing someone who has never been head coach before a year out from World Cup on the assumption good times would keep rolling.

leakyboots

sydthebeat wrote: »

rapid, skilful, tremendous tackler... and has a killer instinct for the try line.

but the doomsday merchants will still whinge about him for not being "spectacular"

Ah here, hasn't he something like 1 try for Leinster in his 24 appearances according to Leinster site?


A "killer instinct" for the tryline he most certainly has not.

Yet. Maybe he will move up a level this Six Nations. He's earned his shot, I'll wait and see how he gets on. No doubting he can pass and tackle and handy in the air. He does the basics well, nothing wrong with that.

molloyjh

Yeah I wouldn't say he has a killer instinct for the try line at all. Far from it. But most other elements of his game are pretty assured. His positioning is good, his fielding is good, his tackling is excellent and he's one of those guys that rarely makes mistakes really. He's doesnt have outstanding qualities that the likes of Larmour, Stockdale or Lowe have. But neither does he have the weaknesses. And he seems to be able to make the step from one level to the next fairly comfortably.

So yeah, maybe assured is the best word for him. He could maybe be a bit more commanding in the back field, but then that is something that probably comes with time.

I still would like to see if Stockdale could work out his kinks from FB, because I think from an attacking perspective there are just so many wins to him playing there. But if it ain't happening at Ulster then it ain't happening at Ireland. Or at least it probably shouldn't. With Stockdale unavailable though it does make the FB decision a fair bit easier.

aloooof

I won't have seen him as much as some of the Leinster fans on here, but how's Keenan's kicking game? He's had a couple fairly weak clearance kicks, particularly in the England game iirc.

That and maybe a lack of absolute top end pace are the weaknesses that have stood out to me (not that he's slow by any means) but other than that, it's hard to fault him, it's been extremely good, imo.

Interested Observer

And while I'm not up in arms over it or anything, Dave Kearney has been really unlucky over the past 12-18 months when it comes to selection in Ireland squads. He really has been excellent.

Podge_irl

Niallof9 wrote: »

And Hugo Keenan is getting some amount of hype. Will be interesting to see if he turns into another McFadden - extremely solid but unspectacular, yet is the guy that keeps genuine talents out of the picture. I hope not. Anybody who thinks we need solid, hasn't been paying attention. We're crying out for some x factor and a bit of oomph. Larmour had it but i genuinely fear its been coached out of him.

Multiple players have gone out of their way to highlight the importance of McFadden to every squad he was in. He also has only 34 caps (and 10 tries!). He was not a mainstay of the 23, but he was an excellent squad player. Who exactly did he block??

Podge_irl

ClanofLams wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. He would have known that if the World Cup went well he would have been a prime contender for top job.

NZ only appointed new head coach following the World Cup. Obviously it’s more challenging for Ireland as 6N starts in February but worst case scenario you have to appoint interim head coach for 6N. Would have been far preferable than appointing someone who has never been head coach before a year out from World Cup on the assumption good times would keep rolling.

He also would have been a prime contender for every job open before the world cup.

They didn't assume the good times would keep rolling. They appointed a coach who they had experience with who likely went through extensive interviews for the role and had a recommendation from our most successful ever coach.

Dubinusa

Keenan Is a very good, solid player. He is exactly what you need at fb. He isn't an offensive master, true. But he is a vast improvement over the failings of the other lads considered. I suppose Addison would have been tried at fb, he ticks a lot of boxes, bar being healthy. Behind Keenan I would think Haley and JOB would be considered. Larmour is awful under the high ball, Stockdale is a poor tackler. I think Keenan is the best option atm. Let's see how Addison performs upon his return!

Dubinusa

We seem to have a lot of incomplete players. Meaning lads that can score in a phone box, Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale, yet have serious issues on the defensive side of the ball. How many Irish players do we have that are complete all rounders? I'd say Conway, Keenan, DK and maybe Daly. Of course just talking about the back 5.

Paul Smeenus

Dubinusa wrote: »

We seem to have a lot of incomplete players. Meaning lads that can score in a phone box, Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale, yet have serious issues on the defensive side of the ball. How many Irish players do we have that are complete all rounders? I'd say Conway, Keenan, DK and maybe Daly. Of course just talking about the back 5.

Baloucoune and Lowry.

jacothelad

redmca2 wrote: »

Could you re-write in Greek please

Αποδείχθηκε ότι πέφτει Ο άντρας είναι ανεπαρκής Κάποιος που αποτυγχάνει Έχει φύγει! Εσείς!
Apodeíchthike óti péftei O ántras eínai aneparkís Kápoios pou apotynchánei Échei fýgei! Eseís!

Joma4good

Bryan Byrne playing very well tonight for Bristol against an admittedly v.poor Bath, wonder if any of the provinces will take another look in his direction. Munster or Connacht could do far worse than persuade him to return.