Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl · 25-03-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118834156#Comment_118834156

Except this is in the hands of the scheduling gods and completely out of our control. Our last match is against Scotland, its hard to see how that can be anything but relevant to qualification.

awec · 25-03-2022 3:01pm

When there are only 4 games, and finishing 1st or 2nd usually being important, it's hard to see how you could get into a scenario of having it all sorted after game 3 unless you get very lucky with other results.

TRC10 · 25-03-2022 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833636#Comment_118833636

But the point remains - do you think they were not up for it cause they beat Aus in the pool stages and if so what do you suggest? They should have deliberately lost that game?

What the hell are you on about? Of course we shouldn't deliberately lose a game. Bizarre question to ask. And I never said that we lost to Wales because we beat Australia.

But I do think that we pour way too much into pool matches that really don't matter in terms of survival in the competition. We didn't need to beat Australia in 2011 and we didn't need to beat France in 2015. We were always going to qualify in 2011 and we were already qualified in 2015. Of course we shouldn't try to lose them, that's not what I'm saying. But lets stop treating them like do or die matches, so that when we get to the games that actually matter, we're completely emotionally and physically drained. Yes, you could argue we got "easier" draws. But what good did that do us? We bottled both quarter finals anyway, both times against inferior teams.

molloyjh · 25-03-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118834457#Comment_118834457

Had we lost to France in 2015 we’d have played New Zealand in the QF. Winning that game was the difference between playing NZ or playing Argentina. And in 2015 we had still never beaten NZ. And had we won that game we’d have faced South Africa rather than Australia in the SF. Are you sure you don’t want to review your opinion that we didn’t need to beat France in 2015?

In 2011 beating Australia was the difference between playing South Africa on the QFs or Wales and then being on the same side of the draw as France as opposed to NZ.

So yeah, we’d have qualified if we had lost those games, but in both cases we’d have been giving ourselves a far harder road in the knock outs. Winning those games gave us the best chance at progressing.

Edit: the “what good did that do is line” is so clearly flawed I shouldn’t need to explain, but here it goes. You are asking that question in retrospect. The coaches and players don’t have that retrospect in advance. The “what good did facing an easier team do us” is so incredibly easily countered with “well if we couldn’t beat them what makes you think we could beat New Zealand?”. Every team will look to give themselves the easiest draw possible. You’re big problem here is that you are assuming that your assertion about our emotional exertions is fact. You don’t know that it is. You can’t. It’s a bizarre take to have unless you have some form of insight into the groups (because they have all been different groups) that others don’t have. What’s more bizarre is your absolute confidence that you are right about it.

Dubinusa · 25-03-2022 3:40pm

I think in 2015, we lost 5 key players and didn't have the depth/experience to replace them. This is key, these days I feel we still don't have the depth.

While Farrell has bought in new lads, some have been capped against minnows! In other words, what type of play would we get from the likes of Lowry; Coombes, Balacoune etc, if they were forced into the line up in a qf?

Farrell imo, should use the summer tour to expand the squad depth. Fringe players should get at least one start v the kiwis.

The 2015 pumas, were a top notch side. They gave the kiwis a game and were clinical against us.

If we do sustain injuries in France, I don't know if we can overcome them. There's a lot of variables and luck involved and we need to develop a squad that can sustain injuries. I hear a lot that it's now a 23 man game! For a world cup it must be a 30 man game.

Must love hardship · 25-03-2022 5:19pm

What uncapped players could go on the NZ tour or try force way in over next 18 months?

1. Wycherley

2. Stewart

3. Jager, clarkson

4. Moloney, Ahern

5. Mccarthy

6.pendergast

7. Oliver

8. Penny

9. Doak

10. Healy

11. Jimmy o brien

12. Frawley, daly

13. Osborne

14. Tommy obrien.

15. haley

Probably missing an obvious 1 or 2

Podge_irl · 25-03-2022 5:22pm

I just don't understand how you expect players to not put effort into a game at the world cup. I simply do not believe that we put too much into the group stages and care less/want to win less/are emotionally exhausted come the QF. I think there are just very specific rugby reasons why we keep losing.

I think in 2015, we lost 5 key players and didn't have the depth/experience to replace them. This is key, these days I feel we still don't have the depth.

I genuinely cannot think of 5 players more detrimental to our style of play than the 5 we lost. No team could have replaced that. Madigan's problem certainly wasn't lack of experience - it was that he was nowhere near as good as Sexton. Keith Earls was not inexperienced, he just wasn't very comfortable at centre and not a shadow of Payne in defence in that role. Devin Toner was not inexperienced, he's just not Paul O'Connell! Our defensive system relied on slowing down ball in midfield and we lost every last one of our best players at doing that. Argentina exploited this by getting the ball quickly to the wing. Its not much more complicated than that.

clsmooth · 25-03-2022 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118834457#Comment_118834457

You could extrapolate that to say we didn’t need to beat Scotland in 2019. But actually we did as we ended up losing to Japan the following week. We didn’t need to win against Japan the following week and didn’t. Didn’t do us too many favours not winning it did it? You aim to win every game in a World Cup.

Former Former Former · 25-03-2022 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835108#Comment_118835108

Devin Toner was not inexperienced, he's just not Paul O'Connell!

It was Henderson who replaced POC, but that's a minor point, he still isn't POC.

Don't forget we also lost Bowe after about 10 minutes against Argentina. Fitzgerald came on and played very well but it was still more disruption and another high quality player gone.

After all that, we could still have won the game.

pickarooney · 25-03-2022 7:45pm

France lost a WC final by a point after losing TWO group games, one of them against Tonga. And they were arguably the better side in that game.

After scraping past Italy we could have thrown the game against France in 2015 and had a full team against NZ in the QF. They would no doubt have melted us but we'd have accepted being beaten by the world's best ever international side with our strongest XV rather than being pantsed by Argentina I daresay.

None of this really makes any difference. Next year we need to beat at least three of South Africa, Scotland, France or New Zealand and we're doing as best we can currently to give ourselves every chance.

Dubinusa · 25-03-2022 7:56pm

It is an awful drew for us. But, it's as bad for the others also. S.A know they have us, NZ and France on deck. NZ and France have each other and us and SA.

the draw is heavy on one side. Which gives England Oz and even Wales hope.

molloyjh · 25-03-2022 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835673#Comment_118835673

If we had lost against France the narrative would just change to the failure being in the pool stage against France that landed us playing NZ.

RichieRich_89 · 25-03-2022 10:34pm

I'm with TRC. Of course playing your final in the semi-final, for want of a better way of putting it, is a thing or a phenomenon in sport. If you invest a huge amount of emotional energy in one match it makes it difficult to get to the same pitch again soon after. Ireland were obviously fired up in those matches against Oz and France. They played with a lot of intensity. Did they do a lap of honour after beating France? There are obviously those shots of Madigan crying.

The key could be to be good enough not to have to rely on intensity. There were fatal flaws in Kiss's defensive system that intensity could sometimes cover up.

RichieRich_89 · 26-03-2022 3:31am

Best uncapped XXIII at the moment?

Josh Wycherley
John Andrew
Keynan Knox
Joe McCarthy
Ross Molony
Josh Murphy
Scott Penny
Alex Kendellen
Nathan Doak
Ben Healy
Robert Lyttle
Tom Daly
Stewart Moore
Tommy O'Brien
Jimmy O'Brien
Diarmuid Barron
Jeremy Loughman
Jack Aungier
Niall Murray
Marcus Rea
Nick McCarthy
Jack Crowley
Ciarán Frawley

Dooley, Abdaladze, Prendergast, McIlroy and Osborne there or thereabouts.

Akrasia · 26-03-2022 11:25am

1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835161#Comment_118835161

We should have absolutely no chance of losing to either Spain or the Asia Pacific team. We should be able to play our reserves against both of these teams and focus on winning against either Scotland or SA

If Scotland and Ireland both somehow manage to beat SA then we'll be qualified before the Scotland game and should rotate players for that game too. The difference between coming first or 2nd in our group is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other

TRC10 · 26-03-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837289#Comment_118837289

In my humble opinion

Prendergast>Josh Murphy

Loughman>Wycherley

McIlroy>Lyttle

Wegians89 · 26-03-2022 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837289#Comment_118837289

Thornburys form pre injury was right up there with the best locks in Ireland. Rock solid at set piece and was Connachts main turnover threat. If he can get back to that I’d expect him to be fourth choice lock

Dubinusa · 28-03-2022 1:21pm

Where did all the posters go? Serious lack of insight on here since last week!

Podge_irl · 28-03-2022 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837895#Comment_118837895

If Scotland and Ireland both somehow manage to beat SA then we'll be qualified before the Scotland game and should rotate players for that game too.

Its not going to happen though so bit of a pointless hypothetical. Anyway, no matter how much people want it to happen, we are not going to significantly weaken the side in a match against Scotland at the world cup. It is simply not going to happen.

We won't play our reserves against both Spain and (probably) Tonga - you can't leave all your frontline players to sit on their asses for a couple weeks. Ideally they'd play against Spain and then rest, but the Tonga match will be by far the harder.

TRC10 · 28-03-2022 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118846700#Comment_118846700

Tonga will probably have V.Fifita, Folau, Fekitoa and Piatau too. Could be a banana skin.

I'd expect us to go at least 70% full strength for them

Jump_In_Jack · 28-03-2022 4:01pm

I think it's possible that we could beat South Africa and score 4 tries, and assuming we'll win against Tonga and Spain with 4 tries, we'd be going into the Scotland match with 15 points in the bag.

Then if Scotland had less than10 points we could do whatever we wanted.

For example, Scotland beat Spain and Tonga but don't get the bonus point win against Tonga, and get nothing out of the match against South Africa.

I'd definitely have one plan ready for that eventuality, either save the likes of Furlong, Porter completely, or maybe spring them off the bench for a limited amount of time.

Must love hardship · 28-03-2022 5:18pm

It's a great draw for South Africa.

Scotland up First. Full team

Spain 2nd, back up team.

Ireland 3rd. Full team.

Tonga last. Rest a few before 1/4 finals.

rodge123 · 28-03-2022 5:52pm

Haven’t we got a two week break between our last group game and quarter final? No need to be resting anyone for that last group game if that’s the case. surely players need game time to stay fresh for the quarter. Otherwise players are looking at three weeks of no game before the quarter.

rodge123 · 28-03-2022 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848135#Comment_118848135

Ignore me, it’s two weeks off between our two last games in group!

Akrasia · 28-03-2022 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118846700#Comment_118846700

Ireland should hammer any of these teams with a full rotation of the squad players

The rugby world cup squad is going to be capped at 31 players, and given that we'd be playing all 23 players in the games against AP1 and Spain, we should give all the critical players minutes in the group stages because the last thing we need is for some key players to get injured during the group stage and then having to rely on players that haven't played any minutes in the world cup, coming in cold in the knockout stages

Podge_irl · 28-03-2022 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848453#Comment_118848453

So should France but they lost to Tonga in 2011...

I don't entirely follow what you're saying, but a decent smattering of the first XV is going to play in at least one of the games against Spain or Tonga. It would be preferable if they were the other way round but such is life. Leaving all your key player cold for 2 weeks is not going to help either.

arsebiscuits1 · 28-03-2022 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848453#Comment_118848453

It's been upped to 33 for 2023

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/bigger-squad-sizes-and-more-rest-days-new-rugby-world-cup-measures-confirmed-40118527.html

Jump_In_Jack · 28-03-2022 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848453#Comment_118848453

Squads will be capped at 33 players so we’ll probably have 3 dedicated specialists in each of the front row positions, and probably 3 specialist scrum-halves, with 21 more to cover the 11 other positions, that’s 2 for every other position except one, so we’ll probably just have 5 covering the back 3, I’d guess we’ll need one of our locks to cover the back row, and one of our centres to cover out-half, or an out-half that can cover centre.

Baird/Beirne/Henderson are all capable of playing 6.

Frawley looks the best centre at the moment that could cover out-half. Tom Daly hasn’t been much good this season but did show some ability in that role before. Someone like Ben Healy could cover 12, he’s big enough and a good tackler. Likewise Ross Byrne.

Tonga are likely to qualify into our group, and with the new rules that players previously capped can swap and represent another country after 3 years they’ll probably be stronger than they’ve ever been before, possibly at a similar level to Scotland, in the backs anyway.

We have Spain first so I’d select none of the preferred starting 15 to start that match, then the following week I’d select the full preferred starting team for Tonga, as we’d need a good warm-up match the week before the South Africa match and we’ll just have to accept whatever injuries arise in the Tonga match. Then there’ll be a gap of two weeks before the last group match against Scotland, so we’ll have the choice to go full team again if needed, or keep some of the full team to spring from the bench for limited time as a brief warm-up ahead of the quarter-finals.