Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10 · 12-05-2022 6:28am

What people seem to be forgetting here is that we have 4 provinces who each play about 30 games a season. And in each of those 30 games, an Irish qualified out half has a chance to show that he he's good enough to play for Ireland.

As Molly said, the idea that it's somehow Andy Farrell's responsibility to take a competent URC 10, give him a few starts for Ireland so that he magically turns into an international level 10 is a nonsense. It's putting the cart before the horse. The player himself needs to demand selection through his performances for his province. Trust me, if there was a test level 10 other than Sexton in Ireland, we'd know.

The international calendar is too short to give everyone a nice run of 5 starts to see if he takes his chance, and then give the next guy 5 starts, and then the next guy. It doesn't work like that. There's only 12/13 games a year and 5 of those are 6N games. There's no room for "fairness" in international rugby. This isn't u8s.

Take Jackson in 2016. He got his chance down in SA that summer and he took it. None of this "he needs a run of games" bullsh*t. He grabbed it by the balls. Likewise Sexton in 2009. His first cap v Fiji he won MOTM and the next week he scored all our points as we beat the world champions. He didn't need 30 token caps before he was able to do anything. He just did it, because he was good enough.

RichieRich_89 · 12-05-2022 6:44am

The return of international 'A' games might be good for a Healy or a Harry Byrne or a Crowley.

I wonder would the RFU be interested in a five-match series with Ireland around 6N time. I think the other countries disbanded their A sides. PRL wouldn't be happy.

Lost Ormond · 12-05-2022 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049443#Comment_119049443

Nobody would be interested in a 5 match series against 1 side. PRL wouldnt agree with that but there was some talk a while back of wales or scotland looking to bring back an A side. But with covid and everything else it was put on back burner.

Podge_irl · 12-05-2022 11:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045628#Comment_119045628

He has looked good and is clearly attacking the line more, but I would quibble about the "aggressively" bit as he is just incapable of doing that. That will remain the problem and why he just isn't the answer internationally at 10. It is also why they have been looking at Harry more in the international squads - the very same development that people are crying out for. It has been decided that RB is not, and never will be, at the requisite level so they are trying to develop someone who might be.

Clegg · 12-05-2022 11:32am

Ireland will play South Africa, Fiji and Australia in November.

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1524698375999959041?t=_eXtdWv3Y3I2S9WcvNGRmQ&s=09

TRC10 · 12-05-2022 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119050451#Comment_119050451

Hopefully we get a 4th fixture in there. Perhaps they could reschedule the game against the States in Vegas

kuang1 · 12-05-2022 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119050451#Comment_119050451

Nice set up of three games there.

Very unusual to have an 8.00pm kick off though (Australia game). The place will be loud that night!

5.30pm for the SA game is ideal.

RichieRich_89 · 12-05-2022 12:10pm

Hopefully they won't beat South Africa too badly or else they might implement some changes ahead of the World Cup.

Dubinusa · 12-05-2022 1:17pm

I don't think there's many on here that wouldn't agree that Ben Healy has raised his hand to be in the mix? He's been really good and I think has been as good if not better that Carberry.

Dubinusa · 12-05-2022 1:20pm

The Autumn series is stacked. There's not going to be much change for the squad. I reckon the nucleus is set.

TRC10 · 12-05-2022 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119050904#Comment_119050904

I agree. He's done enough to get on the plane as no.3 and start the Maori games.

Up until the last month I think he has been better than Carbery. But to be fair to Carbery he's been quite good the last few weeks.

ersatz · 12-05-2022 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049436#Comment_119049436

Yeah, we are going around in circles, and not hearing things...but

"the idea that it's somehow Andy Farrell's responsibility to take a competent URC 10, give him a few starts for Ireland so that he magically turns into an international level 10 is a nonsense"

His responsibility is to prepare and field teams and hopefully get results. Just because we don't have international standard tens available does not mean we can field teams without a ten. For the last few years the incumbent has been operating on borrowed time, with a very big question over his reliability to get us to and through the World Cup. He was left at home by the Lions for similar reasons. His backup has played virtually no rugby since the last world cup except for the past month. Not pepping others to step in because they aren't as good is whistling by the graveyard. Their limitations are all the more reason to pick one or two of them and just stick with them. Farrells tactics of switching up the first receiver is an acknowledgement of this conundrum, his indecision about which of the rest comes next is short sighted.

Saying none of the others have stepped up is to say nothing (compared to Sexton, Jackson, ROG), we all know that. We still need to field someone if Sexton doesn't make it to or through the WC. And the idea that they're all the same so it doesn't really matter is also denial, it does matter and more games is more experience which makes players better, even ordinary pros. Otherwise why coach them?

Former Former Former · 12-05-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053028#Comment_119053028

We still need to field someone if Sexton doesn't make it to or through the WC.

It

Will

Be

JOEY

CARBERY

molloyjh · 12-05-2022 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053028#Comment_119053028

We managed pretty well in the 6Ns and the Autumn games. It seems that Farrell has decided that the others aren’t good enough and that we should focus on the 2 that we have who are or could be. What’s the worst that could happen from that? It’s not like we aren’t going to field a 19 if those guys aren’t around. We will. Whoever it is won’t be good enough. Just like they aren’t good enough now. The extra game time won’t make them any more good enough and it would result in poorer performances and results on the mean time. Which has a knock on effect on the rest of the team. Why go on a losing run for no appreciable gain?

aloooof · 12-05-2022 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053028#Comment_119053028

His backup has played virtually no rugby since the last world cup except for the past month.

That’s simply not true tho. His first start back for Munster was the end of February last year, and I don’t think he’s missed too much rugby since then (if at all).

Or do you mean form-wise? In which case, from an Ireland perspective I point to Argentina where he was good and France where he was very good.

his indecision about which of the rest comes next is short sighted.

This also not true. He’s not been indecisive; it’s clearly Joey Carbery.

And the idea that they're all the same so it doesn't really matter is also denial, it does matter and more games is more experience which makes players better, even ordinary pros. Otherwise why coach them?

Presumably this will work with Carbery then as well, no?

ersatz · 12-05-2022 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053187#Comment_119053187

I wasn't talking about Carbery here. First few lines I establish that we are talking about who is next behind Carbery in the event that JS is out of the picture between now and the end of the world cup, 18 months away.

aloooof · 12-05-2022 8:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053228#Comment_119053228

So you want us to start our 3rd choice 10 and give him a run of games?

Podge_irl · 12-05-2022 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053228#Comment_119053228

What happened to people clamouring for players to be selected on form? Maybe he'll just pick whoever is best at the time...

Former Former Former · 12-05-2022 9:57pm

There is loads of time for someone to stake a claim for third choice and there's loads of time for someone to overtake Carbery.

Farrell has shown time and again he'll take a chance on new faces with little or no test experience. Whatever criticisms there were about Schmidt being overly loyal simply don't apply to Farrell.

All that's missing is an out half good enough to step up.

TRC10 · 12-05-2022 10:14pm

The problem with eratz's argument is that it's grounded on so many utter falsehoods

The idea that until February, Carbery had played no rugby since the last world cup is just not true. Apart from his broken elbow in December, he's had a pretty much injury free spell since February 2021.

The idea that Farrell has no idea who his no.2 is, couldn't be more wrong. As a few others have pointed out, it's quite obviously Carbery, whether you like it or not. As is evident from him starting 4 of Ireland's last 10 games. Which is more than his form probably deserved.

Their limitations are all the more reason to pick one or two of them and just stick with them. Farrells tactics of switching up the first receiver is an acknowledgement of this conundrum, his indecision about which of the rest comes next is short sighted.

I think it's pretty clear that Harry Byrne would be his no.3 if Farrell had his way. He's had him in the squad since day 1 in the job. But Farrell couldn't have predicted that his career would be derailed by injuries.

ersatz · 12-05-2022 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119053089#Comment_119053089

He hasn't really been doing that with tens though. Carbery has been picked whenever fit regardless of form, which until fairly recently has been very ordinary. Carty was out even in great form and arguably RBs form has been top drawer this year. HB was picked on the basis of fumes and ceilings. It's part of the underlying problem for Farrell, after Sexton we don't have any great tens, at best they are solid. Anyway, I think the point is clear, as it's been since the last World Cup. 1 and 2 are unreliable (maybe Carbery has turned a corner) and after that we fall off a cliff in standards (even if Carbery isn't a whole lot better, Farrell clearly rates him). But I'd say there is a high chance of one of the others starting a significant World Cup game or at least coming off the bench. There are still plenty of games to figure it out.

TRC10 · 12-05-2022 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119054609#Comment_119054609

Carbery has been picked whenever fit regardless of form, which until fairly recently has been very ordinary.

Hang on. Isn't this exactly what you wanted? For Farrell to pick his guy and stick with him so he improves and gets experience? Is this not what you were advocating for no?

It seems to me like the guy you wanted picked just didn't get picked and you're just looking for criticisms of Farrell, which contradict what you argue he should be doing. You argue he should pick his guy and stick with him, yet you criticise him for doing exactly that with Carbery.

Interested Observer · 13-05-2022 5:43am

Anyone else think Frawley could become a live option if he actually moved back to 10?

TRC10 · 13-05-2022 6:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055081#Comment_119055081

Unless Sexton has a Rog 2013-esque drop in form and Ross Byrne gets abducted by aliens, and Frawley starts playing big games at 10 for Leinster, it won't happen.

Must love hardship · 13-05-2022 8:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055102#Comment_119055102

So you're saying there's a chance.....

RichieRich_89 · 15-05-2022 10:51am

Seeing Leinster's dynamic backrow in action yesterday makes me think that it's no surprise there's been a reversal in Ireland's fortunes since they moved on from the horribly one-paced and undynamic backrow of 6. Peter O'Mahony, 7. Josh van der Flier (before his carrying improved out of all recognition), 8. Christiaan Johan Stander. Having all-action and, crucially, dynamic backrows like Leamy, Wallace, Leavy and O'Brien is part of Eire's rugby identity, and for the most part that trio Smith selected just didn't cut the mustard.