Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103777#Comment_119103777

H.Byrne's performance was promising. But he needs to prove he can put together a solid body of work over a period of time without getting injured. That won't happen this season.

If he can do that, he'll overtake Ross because he's a better rugby player IMO. But what Ross has is reliability and consistent availability. And that goes a long way in a coach's mind.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103884#Comment_119103884

It just dawned on me, Irish rugby is going to be dominated by English coaches next year. The 3 main provinces and the national team all coached by Poms. I knew y'all secretly loved the Brits.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103884#Comment_119103884

When you say "the attacking philosophies of Farrell" do you really think that Ireland's current game plan is solely down to Farrell and Catt?? Catt attack play was woeful previously..

It's Leinsters game plan that ireland are implementing.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106191#Comment_119106191

It's not really "Leinster's" though. It's the same shape that Japan, the ABs and all of the NZ teams employ and Munster, Ulster and Connacht are doing it too. Ireland have been trying to do it ever since 2019.

Lancaster just does a brilliant job of implementing it and that translates to Leinster players slotting in more seamlessly for Ireland.

Dubinusa

The game plan evolved! What choice was there? Schmidt last year was forgettable. There was some awful matches where we looked lost, without any direction when the plan failed. We were exposed and limited.

The new style was crucial to getting the side back on track. The confidence is back and the team has improved. Leinster play a good brand of rugby and Lancaster is behind that, if Catt copies and pastes this successfully, the team will be better.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106191#Comment_119106191

its very much Catts design.

Its what he was trying to do with Italy, but they didnt have the basic skills and decision making.

when he came into Ireland initially he was coming into a team who played the antithesis of his philosophy. It was low risk, possession heavy, phased based power rugby. Its completely unsurprising that he didnt hit the ground running, and it took a turn around of some key players in order to have others players come in who fitted the style better.

My initial point is that this coaching umbrella of lancaster, rowntree, catt and farrell were together at england, and actually had england playing decent rugby leading into rwc 2015. They all appear to share the same or similar rugby philosophy. Mc Farland and Friend also seem to coaches of similar philosophies, and thats a very good thing for irish rugby.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106802#Comment_119106802

You’d wonder how much of that is by design. Nuciforas influence perhaps.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106846#Comment_119106846

"unpopular rugby opinions" is that way ------------>

:P

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106861#Comment_119106861

Funnily enough Awec popped into my mind as I typed that.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106802#Comment_119106802

that isnt a promising sign heading into next year so...........

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119102070#Comment_119102070

Sorry, but Van Der Flier is one of the best players in the world at the moment.

Do you really think Timoney is on that level?

I always find it baffling that people can't rate VDF in the manner he should be.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108382#Comment_119108382

Van Der Flier is one of the best players in the world at the moment.

VDF has been brilliant but this is way OTT and quite typical of Irish fans. We were very quick in 2018 to anoint our entire team as "best in the world" and then they all fell off a cliff and it turned out they weren't quite as good as we thought.

I'll say again, VDF has been brilliant, he's in the form of his life and should probably win EPOTY. But let's not lose the run of ourselves. He was nowhere near as good last year, so I'd like to see him back it up next season before we call him "one of the best players in the world". That kind of talk is for your Duponts, Saveas, Itojes, Furlongs, Kolbes etc.

I maintain that Timoney is a fantastic player and I don't think you'd lose much if he started for Ireland. He's actually a much better jackler than VDF.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108382#Comment_119108382

Do you really think Timoney is on that level?

To be fair to TRC (someone I’ve often disagreed with) he did say “nearly as good a job”. So he’s not claiming he’s on the same level.

And to be fair to Timoney, he’s been outstanding numerous times this season. I think he deserves his shot in the summer tour.

And all that can be true while still thinking VdF had been one of the best players in Europe this season.

tvpc

Prendergast will most likely be going to NZ. I could see him starting by the time the World cup comes around

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108563#Comment_119108563

So VDF should win European player of the year ahead of dupont, itoje, furlong, but he isn't at their level?

The poster did say at the moment.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108563#Comment_119108563

this is way OTT and quite typical of Irish fans

It's equally typical of some Irish fans to make wild predictions about inexperienced players based on very little. Timoney has no meaningful international experience and if Connors had been fit last November he'd probably still be on zero caps.

There's more reason to think VDF is one of the best in the world than to think Timoney is as good.

aloooof

Personally think Timoney is a great shout for the 20 jersey.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108567#Comment_119108567

Its an argument over semantics I guess, but I would classify "nearly as good a job" as being on a similar level. Which he isn't.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108563#Comment_119108563

If he's the best player in Europe then by default he's one of the best players in the world. Reminder you declared we needed to drop Doris (also easily one of the best backrows in Europe) and/or Conan for the Toulouse game. Maybe it's not your forte?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108770#Comment_119108770

I’m not sure it’s that simple.

Sam Simmonds 2020, Alex Goode 2019 for example. Both exceptional seasons, both deserved European Player of the Year. But one of the best players in the world? I don’t think either would have made a world 15 (or 23).

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106117#Comment_119106117

To be fair these guys, including Farrell would not have been offered jobs in Premiership when they got hired into roles in Ireland

The Premiership is going the way of the Premier League, a foreign coach is wanted for all jobs. Just look at Jones for England, if he was an English coach he would have been fired many years ago.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108811#Comment_119108811

Not sure that's really true about Jones. He has gotten to a world cup final, hammering NZ in the process, and won three 6N titles. Its not like he has been struggling consistently.

AckwelFoley

NZ tour should be an important series. We need to perform competitively down there. Will it be a white wash, potentially but I'd rather we preform competitively and give some players a taste of the pressure, than come away with a test win and as usual having shot the load a year before the WC when we fail to perform when it matters .

What do others consider a successful series in NZ?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108905#Comment_119108905

A test win.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108846#Comment_119108846

In 2018 he had a disaster, including a hammering on tour v SA. If that was an English coach he would have been fired.

Even keeping him they hired in the NZ lad and most people expected Jones to fail at WC and him to take over.

Even in 2019, for all the talk about Jones he won nothing that season, Wales won the Grand Slam and he got it totally wrong v SA in WC final. Not saying he is a bad coach but if he was English, he would have been fired after the SA tour in 2018

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108905#Comment_119108905

Win a test, couple of changes test on test and for the teams against the Māori to click and play like a team.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108963#Comment_119108963

Like Brian Ashton was fired after losing Tests 58-10 and 55-22 away to South Africa?

Which "hammering" are you talking about, btw? The one they lost 42-39 or the one they lost 23-12? Presumably not the one they won 10-25.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119109062#Comment_119109062

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/11407055/youngs-cuts-interview-short

Says it all really.....

Jones said it himself: https://www.balls.ie/rugby/eddie-jones-interview-3-400194

It was around this time wasn't it in media they approach Joe to take over?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108563#Comment_119108563

It's not OTT at all. He's been playing at a consistently world class level this season for province and country against the best teams in the world.

There's always a tendency to be a bit hesitant on rating VDF around here, with many saying he needs to develop his carrying and his ability to turn over ball.

He's doing all of that now, yet some still think others would be able to do what he does no bother.

It's never good enough. He's one of the best players in the world at the moment and it's high time we appreciate the talent we have instead of this 'oooh jaysus I dunno Ted' nonsense.

EDIT: Also, Dupont is the consensus best player in the world at the moment, but yet if VDF wins European Player of the Year (beating Dupont) then he isn't at that level?

VDF's been doing this for more than two seasons. He was dropped just after COVID and told he had to work on his carrying and jackling. What more does he have to do?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119109315#Comment_119109315

He's been playing at a consistently world class level this season for province and country against the best teams in the world.

I think this is exactly TRC’s point tho. VdF has been in unbelievable form this season. But the absolute best players in the world (like DuPont) do it season after season.

Not that he’s been bad in previous season, not at all. But I’d argue VdF has been far superior this season than last. From an Ireland perspective at least, he was poor during the ANC for example. And but for injury to Doris, I think there’s a good chance POM could’ve started at 7 ahead of him for the 2021 6 Nations.

And he clearly has added a carrying threat to his game that he didn’t have in previous seasons, to the point it’s a trope now.

EDIT: Also, Dupont is the consensus best player in the world at the moment, but yet if VDF wins European Player of the Year (beating Dupont) then he isn't at that level?

I’ve answered this previously so quick copy & paste:

“I’m not sure it’s that simple. 

Sam Simmonds 2020, Alex Goode 2019 for example. Both exceptional seasons, both deserved European Player of the Year. But one of the best players in the world? I don’t think either would have made a world 15 (or 23).”

The whole argument reminds me a bit of Tadhg Beirne. They’ve both hit a really rich vein of form over the last while, putting in a level of performance we hadn’t seen from them before. Let’s hope it continues for both players.